• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Split ticket - Connecting train delayed - Court action (Sowerby Bridge - Birmingham journey)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Puffing Devil

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2013
Messages
2,742
Hi sorry just catching on this.

Yes the train ticket was anytime day single from Sowerby to Pic changing at Salford Cres. Getting to Pic at 7.15.

The ticket inspectors arguement is that 9.4 doesnt apply as the tickets were seperate and it was 2 different train companies. Its upto the court to decide if my ticket was valid. Im affectively being prosecuted for travelling on a train without a ticket, fare evasion.

I submitted my evidence to the clerk, in reponse I was given a new date of July 30th to attend court.

Is that date for a trial, or a pre-trial hearing? Do you have any pre-trial paperwork from the TOC?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,438
Location
Yorkshire
Hi sorry just catching on this.

Yes the train ticket was anytime day single from Sowerby to Pic changing at Salford Cres. Getting to Pic at 7.15.

The ticket inspectors arguement is that 9.4 doesnt apply as the tickets were seperate and it was 2 different train companies. Its upto the court to decide if my ticket was valid. Im affectively being prosecuted for travelling on a train without a ticket, fare evasion.

I submitted my evidence to the clerk, in reponse I was given a new date of July 30th to attend court.
Are you representing yourself in court?

What offence are you being charged with?
 

Mickyb

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2020
Messages
10
Location
Sowerby bridge
Im in court Thursday for this due to virus delay.

'1. Did travel, or attempt to travel upon the railway without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof.'

Is the charge.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
12,981
Good luck with your case tomorrow, please do let us know how you get on. I do hope you took @yorkie up on his offer of assistance earlier in the year.
 

MotCO

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,085
Reading all the posts, you seem to have a good case and should win. However, the Court probably will not understand the minutia affecting the rules and regulations of ticketing. You do need to be prepared to set out a detailed case setting out how and why you complied with these rules and that no contravention has occured. Although you are 'innocent' and the proscution need to set out the case, it would probably be helpful to have 'chapter and verse' (i.e. copies of the relevant rules and regulations) so that you can quote them and share them.

In short, you do need to be well prepared, and as @Hadders advised, suggest you make contact with @yorkie. Good luck on Thursday.
 

Realfish

Member
Joined
15 Aug 2012
Messages
266
Hello Mickyb, so sorry to hear that this is still being pursued.

The experts here have been able to assure you that the tickets and route that you took were valid on the day (although we don't know which day that was - you need to provide evidence of your delay).

Upthread, there was debate about whether a different operator needed honour your ticket, this is central to the matter. Apologies if someone has posted this already, but paragraph 9.4 of the current National Rail Conditions of Carriage states this:

9.4. Where you are using a Ticket valid on a specific train service or train services (such as an ‘advance’ Ticket) and you miss a service because a previous connecting train service was delayed, you will be able to travel on the next train service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked without penalty.

'Booked' (my emboldening), is the key word. Any reference to Northern and XC being different operators is irrelevant. If things happened as they were described by you, the conductor on the Cross Country service to Birmingham was obliged by way of those Conditions to accept your ticket, even if you were using multiple tickets for your journey (paragraph 14 applies).

Good luck tomorrow.


[Edited to add: Amongst the paperwork that you have received there should be a witness statement from the conductor / train manager on which the prosecutor has relied. Have you received this? What was the justification for their actions?]
 
Last edited:

Mickyb

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2020
Messages
10
Location
Sowerby bridge
Hello Mickyb, so sorry to hear that this is still being pursued.

The experts here have been able to assure you that the tickets and route that you took were valid on the day (although we don't know which day that was - you need to provide evidence of your delay).

Upthread, there was debate about whether a different operator needed honour your ticket, this is central to the matter. Apologies if someone has posted this already, but paragraph 9.4 of the current National Rail Conditions of Carriage states this:

9.4. Where you are using a Ticket valid on a specific train service or train services (such as an ‘advance’ Ticket) and you miss a service because a previous connecting train service was delayed, you will be able to travel on the next train service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked without penalty.

'Booked' (my emboldening), is the key word. Any reference to Northern and XC being different operators is irrelevant. If things happened as they were described by you, the conductor on the Cross Country service to Birmingham was obliged by way of those Conditions to accept your ticket, even if you were using multiple tickets for your journey (paragraph 14 applies).

Good luck tomorrow.


[Edited to add: Amongst the paperwork that you have received there should be a witness statement from the conductor / train manager on which the prosecutor has relied. Have you received this? What was the justification for their actions?]

Thank you.

The evidence was that it was seperate train companies and seperate tickets and that regulation 9.3 didn't apply. However, as you've mentioned 9.3 doesn't discriminate against this.
 

MotCO

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,085
Thank you.

The evidence was that it was separate train companies and separate tickets and that regulation 9.3 didn't apply. However, as you've mentioned 9.3 doesn't discriminate against this.

Can you confirm that you meant regulation 9.4, and that it was a mis-type. Section 9.3 is "It is an offence under the Railway Byelaws to fail to provide your name and address when requested." Did you fail to provide your name and address?

I assume you have a copy of the National Rail Conditions of Travel - I suggest you take this with you tomorrow. (If not, the link is here https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf ). Good luck!

Edit: The only other thing I think that the train company may try to suggest is that you were late for your original train from Sowerby Bridge, and therefore missed your XCountry train. Do you have any proof that you caught the correct train from Sowerby Bridge and any evidence that it was late in reaching Manchester Piccadily? Although it is up to the train company to prove their case, you may find it useful if you have defences for all their claims and suggestions.
 
Last edited:

Vespa

Established Member
Joined
20 Dec 2019
Messages
1,576
Location
Merseyside
I hope there is a good outcome, not sure what time court runs up to in these Covid times.
It should be close of business by now.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,996
Maybe he/she is out celebrating :lol:
or an all night sitting as the Magistrates try to get to grips with the Conditions of a Travel and start to realise they themselves have paid too much every time they have been on a Cross Country train....:lol:
 

NLC1072

Member
Joined
17 May 2010
Messages
631
Location
Ireland/London
or an all night sitting as the Magistrates try to get to grips with the Conditions of a Travel and start to realise they themselves have paid too much every time they have been on a Cross Country train....:lol:
Is there a thread for that? I wouldn't mind a good long read of that one :D
 

packermac

Member
Joined
16 Sep 2019
Messages
543
Location
Swanage
Wonder where the OP has gone? Would love to know the outcome of this.
Yes I have wondered. Can you be charged with Contempt of Court at a Magistrates? Maybe it did not go and well and he told the magistrate what he thought!
Also I am unclear if this was TIL or XC proceeding with this prosecution. If it has got this far and it was XC I guess they must have felt sure of their position.
 

185

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
4,972
(further) mere fanciful speculation, but perhaps another outcome could be the company decided to 'settle' this case with the err.. 'defendant' on the basis that XC drops charges on the sole condition that they do not discuss XC's almighty screwup divulge the details of the case with the media or anyone. I'm sure as a highly professional, respectable top notch train firm this would never happen.

:smile:
 
Last edited:

Vespa

Established Member
Joined
20 Dec 2019
Messages
1,576
Location
Merseyside
Especially when we have invested our knowledge and assistance in helping out, it's only fair we would like to know the outcome.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,996
worth sending a personal message? (in case that triggers an e-mail to the OP for example)
 

AlbertBeale

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2019
Messages
2,694
Location
London
Yes I have wondered. Can you be charged with Contempt of Court at a Magistrates? Maybe it did not go and well and he told the magistrate what he thought!
Also I am unclear if this was TIL or XC proceeding with this prosecution. If it has got this far and it was XC I guess they must have felt sure of their position.

There are two types of Contempt of Court - one is contempt "in the face of the court" (which I believe it's an inherent right of any court in this country to deal with, and which swearing at the Magistrate would presumably come under); I can't imagine Magistrates don't have powers to deal with this! (The other sort of CofC - where you do something which allegedly, eg, frustrates the functioning or intent of the court in some other way, not necessarily during the hearing itself - certainly exists as a possibility in connection with a Magistrates' Court; at least it did years ago when I was hauled up for it. With this sort of CofC you're not necessarily dealt with by the court you're supposed to have been in contempt of. In my case, the accusation was of criminal contempt, not civil contempt, which meant a worse possible penalty, amongst other things. I defended myself - unsuccessfully - in front of the then Lord Chief Justice at the High Court; his finding that I was in contempt of a Magistrates' Court was subsequently overturned by the Judicial Committee of the House of Lords ["the Law Lords"], this being in the pre-Supreme Court era.)
 
Last edited:

38Cto15E

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2009
Messages
997
Location
15E
MickyB has either been gagged or the outcome wasn't one which he wished to share with anyone.
When there is no 'final' post from an OP on Disputes and Prosecutions I always feel very disappointed for the very knowledgeable BM's who have spent a lot of time trying to assist an OP over a felt wrongdoing.
 

packermac

Member
Joined
16 Sep 2019
Messages
543
Location
Swanage
MickyB has either been gagged or the outcome wasn't one which he wished to share with anyone.
When there is no 'final' post from an OP on Disputes and Prosecutions I always feel very disappointed for the very knowledgeable BM's who have spent a lot of time trying to assist an OP over a felt wrongdoing.
Yes I thought this had the potential to be a pivotal ruling. In effect case law.
I must admit I was far from sure the position was a strong one from what is, from my commercial law training, a rather vaguely worded paragraph in the NRCoT, although those with far more ticketing knowledge than me felt it was a strong position.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
14,877
Yes I thought this had the potential to be a pivotal ruling. In effect case law.
I must admit I was far from sure the position was a strong one from what is, from my commercial law training, a rather vaguely worded paragraph in the NRCoT, although those with far more ticketing knowledge than me felt it was a strong position.
I’m inclined to agree - I suspect the strength of the defence would depend on the legal knowledge and training of the person presenting the defence. For the OP’s sake, I hope I’m wrong.
 

b0b

Established Member
Joined
25 Jan 2010
Messages
1,329
Curious if the act of refusing to buy a ticket on demand from the train manager could be considered as "intent to avoid payment", even though most of us believe his ticket should have been accepted by the XC TM as valid for travel.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top