SSR resignalling

[Dstock7080]

Back in C stock days I definitely caught a service to Olympia from 4, it must have come from Gloucester Road. Stood in the platform for quite some time.

Platform 4 is the usual one for Olympia trains, as I said above trains from High Street Kensington cannot go into platform 3.
On occasions the Olympia shuttle works from Earl’s Court yard, so will arrive in platform 3.

 

[jumble]

Could I ask one of the resident LUL experts
My understanding is that when the S stock is under the new signalling system the outside lights turn blue.
Is there any indication inside the passenger area of this?

 

[Mojo]

Could I ask one of the resident LUL experts
My understanding is that when the S stock is under the new signalling system the outside lights turn blue.
Is there any indication inside the passenger area of this?

The lights on the outside turn illuminate white, when the train is at a station and is ready to depart. The blue light on trains indicate that it is laying de-icing fluid. There are also lineside signals that illuminate blue at the boundaries between conventional signalling and modern signals, these change from red to blue when the train becomes communicating with the system.

 

[jumble]

Thanks Mojo
I have been misled by this quote from district dave forum which suggests that there is a difference on the doors between manual and ATO departure but doesnt say what it is.



At a technical aspect, Ready to Depart Indicators (RTDI's) are part of the external light clusters the lower half which lights up orange when doors are released, the upper half of the same cluster is already used for varying iterations including indication when di-icing fluid is being sprayed aswell as passenger alarm activations among others.

The reason why you may have yet to RTDI indications on the S stock till now is that this feature is only activated under ATO/CTBC (aka SMA 0.5 between Latimer Rd and Hammersmith at present). RTDI's on the S-stock themselves replace the same platform based variants on the Jubilee and Northern Lines which function in exactly the same way in lighting up when the train receives its ATO START command (sometimes called movement authority) typically 10 seconds prior to departure.

 

[rebmcr]

I have been misled by this quote from district dave forum which suggests that there is a difference on the doors between manual and ATO departure but doesnt say what it is.

The quote refers only to the bodyside lights on S Stock. There are no indicators inside the passenger areas of the train, but the timings for door release are different enough to notice after getting used to them.

 

[jumble]

The quote refers only to the bodyside lights on S Stock. There are no indicators inside the passenger areas of the train, but the timings for door release are different enough to notice after getting used to them.

Many thanks I will look out for this pattern

 

[bluegoblin7]

The quote refers only to the bodyside lights on S Stock. There are no indicators inside the passenger areas of the train, but the timings for door release are different enough to notice after getting used to them.

Door release has nothing to do with whether or not a train has a target point. The nature of how the Seltrac system works means that trains must have an Accurate Stop from the signalling system before enabling the door buttons; this introduces a delay of a couple of seconds, and isn’t dissimilar to the Northern and Jubilee lines in that regard.

As mentioned, there is no internal indication as to whether the train has a target points; the white lights will also not recycle if the doors are recycled.

 

[simple simon]

Thanks Mojo
I have been misled by this quote from district dave forum which suggests that there is a difference on the doors between manual and ATO departure but doesnt say what it is.



At a technical aspect, Ready to Depart Indicators (RTDI's) are part of the external light clusters the lower half which lights up orange when doors are released, the upper half of the same cluster is already used for varying iterations including indication when di-icing fluid is being sprayed aswell as passenger alarm activations among others.

The reason why you may have yet to RTDI indications on the S stock till now is that this feature is only activated under ATO/CTBC (aka SMA 0.5 between Latimer Rd and Hammersmith at present). RTDI's on the S-stock themselves replace the same platform based variants on the Jubilee and Northern Lines which function in exactly the same way in lighting up when the train receives its ATO START command (sometimes called movement authority) typically 10 seconds prior to departure.

I am surprised that you feel as if you have been misled but not knowing the exact messages (and by whom) I cannot comment any further on what was said there.

re: ATO, it now extends from Hammersmith (Met) all the way to Euston Square - this much I know from observation. It also extends up the Met line (I think as far as Finchley Road) and along the District Circle route (I think as far as Paddington) but I am yet to travel to see this for myself.

At Euston Square a train switching to ATO will be given a blue signal a few seconds before it is time to depart and the RTDI on the side of the train will illuminate white. Prior to that the signal is red.

Simon

 

[Mojo]

At Euston Square a train switching to ATO will be given a blue signal a few seconds before it is time to depart and the RTDI on the side of the train will illuminate white. Prior to that the signal is red.

It is my understanding that the blue light indicates that the train is now communicating and “live” on the system; the two will not always follow each other, it is possible that the blue light will illuminate but there is a longer gap before the ready to depart indicator illuminates because for example there is a train ahead or the train is being held by the Signal Operator.

 

[bluegoblin7]

It is my understanding that the blue light indicates that the train is now communicating and “live” on the system; the two will not always follow each other, it is possible that the blue light will illuminate but there is a longer gap before the ready to depart indicator illuminates because for example there is a train ahead or the train is being held by the Signal Operator.

Semi-correct (by my understanding at least). It is possible to get a blue signal before the train is ready to depart, but the train should have a target point *and* be communicating with the system - because blue also means that communicating trains (only) can proceed - if there is no target point this could be an issue. Trains can be held by Service Controllers with a blue aspect, meaning no white lights on the bodyside.

A train won’t get the white lights before the blue has illuminated, however.

re: ATO, it now extends from Hammersmith (Met) all the way to Euston Square - this much I know from observation. It also extends up the Met line (I think as far as Finchley Road) and along the District Circle route (I think as far as Paddington) but I am yet to travel to see this for myself.

It is very well documented in many places that resignalling now covers SMAs 0.5, 1 and 2 - namely Hammersmith (C&H)/Paddington (Circle)/Finchley Road to Euston Square.

 

[philthetube]

Door release has nothing to do with whether or not a train has a target point. The nature of how the Seltrac system works means that trains must have an Accurate Stop from the signalling system before enabling the door buttons; this introduces a delay of a couple of seconds, and isn’t dissimilar to the Northern and Jubilee lines in that regard.

As mentioned, there is no internal indication as to whether the train has a target points; the white lights will also not recycle if the doors are recycled.

The time delay is nothing like a couple of seconds on an S8, bizarrely is is slightly longer on an S7, (or the S7+1 which operates on the met. This is because the only differench, as a driver, between an S7 and 8 is that you get a click when the doors can be opened and this occurs slightly before the visual indication happens.

 

[londonboi198o5]

Semi-correct (by my understanding at least). It is possible to get a blue signal before the train is ready to depart, but the train should have a target point *and* be communicating with the system - because blue also means that communicating trains (only) can proceed - if there is no target point this could be an issue. Trains can be held by Service Controllers with a blue aspect, meaning no white lights on the bodyside.

A train won’t get the white lights before the blue has illuminated, however.



It is very well documented in many places that resignalling now covers SMAs 0.5, 1 and 2 - namely Hammersmith (C&H)/Paddington (Circle)/Finchley Road to Euston Square.

the “blue light” as it is knowing (migration entry signal) will change from red to blue once the train has “changed over” and is communicating with the system. A train can sit there for as long as it wants (although I wouldn’t recommend it lol) the signal will stay blue after it has changed. The white external lights illuminate 12 seconds before the “ATO start required” message appears on the train ops SID this is enough dwell time for the driver to close the doors and check the pti before departure

 

[Mojo]

SMA 3 now officially delayed.

 

[District077]

When will ATO past Earls Court. Could it be in the near future

 

[bluegoblin7]

No - it'll be a miracle if it happens this year.

Initial dates for SMA 5 (Sloane Square to Paddington/Olympia/Barons Court/Fulham Broadway), which encompasses Earl's Court, was for the very end of this year, but this was prior to the slippage of SMAs 0.5-3. SMA 3, which should have gone live this coming weekend, is now indefinitely postponed whilst issues are ironed out, with no dates yet confirmed.

In theory, once SMA 3 goes live the whole process should start to speed up a little bit, at least as far as 'conventional' railway is concerned (i.e. not the underlay/overlay areas).

To be honest, it's all gone a bit quiet on 4LM recently...

 

[LU_timetabler]

Well said bluegoblin7, that's exactly my take on the current situation. No 4LM updated programme at the moment. SMA3 is certainly a tricky one, with the somewhat complex Minories and Aldgate North Junctions. last thing they want to do is rush that.

 

[tomglazed]

Probably to some extent burnt a little bit by the issues that arose in the most recent section go-live so they have some things they need to rectify before they even consider putting dates on future section go lives.

Appreciate it was the first section the Metropolitan was activated in the last go live but from personal experience, even though my commute route is Rickmansworth to Chalfont & Latimer, the issues that occurred almost daily on the central sections caused me to use work from home a few times. Can only imagine what it was like for those commuting inwards to central.

 

[Backroom_boy]

To be honest, it's all gone a bit quiet on 4LM recently...

Has it become at all more noisy or has C19 made in it even more inaudible?

 

[ijmad]

I assume that work was suspended during the lockdown, but where did things get to?

I suppose they'll be building an entirely new schedule for further SMAs, though hopefully they may have made some progress on software.

 

[Dstock7080]

Due to recent events installation and other work was halted.

A new date for SMA3 commissioning in 2021 has been mentioned.

As has descoping some of the later area commissions

 

[ijmad]

As has descoping some of the later area commissions

That would be a real shame. I suppose it all costs money though, that TfL don't really have to spare right now. Guess some of the outer branches might be stuck on their century old signals for another decade...

 

[Dstock7080]

That would be a real shame. I suppose it all costs money though, that TfL don't really have to spare right now.

A document detailing the possible descoping was issued in January, before the current financial mess.

 

[rebmcr]

Due to recent events installation and other work was halted.

A new date for SMA3 commissioning in 2021 has been mentioned.

As has descoping some of the later area commissions

I note that SMA 0.5 to 7 don't involve any Network Rail, nor deep Tube lines — whereas every single SMA from 8 onward has at least one such interaction. That must have been intentional as a natural break point, and it at least allows the Circle/H&C fleet to be pure CBTC.

 

[Domh245]

I note that SMA 0.5 to 7 don't involve any Network Rail, nor deep Tube lines — whereas every single SMA from 8 onward has at least one such interaction. That must have been intentional as a natural break point, and it at least allows the Circle/H&C fleet to be pure CBTC.

There's no such thing as the "Circle/H&C fleet" - the units for those services are fully interworked with the District line. Moot point as all of the units have now been through the conversion process.

The real reason that these would have been left until last is to give them as long as possible to work on those complicated interactions, although given how the 'simple' bits have gone so far...

 

[rebmcr]

There's no such thing as the "Circle/H&C fleet" - the units for those services are fully interworked with the District line. Moot point as all of the units have now been through the conversion process.

The real reason that these would have been left until last is to give them as long as possible to work on those complicated interactions, although given how the 'simple' bits have gone so far...

Ah of course, I was thinking of the Train Operator split. Getting all of them done up to SMA 7 would perhaps save on some TOp training? I believe some H&Cs are extended to Upminster Depot at end of service, so SMA 6 wouldn't be enough to eliminate the competence requirement?

 

[Dstock7080]

Ah of course, I was thinking of the Train Operator split. Getting all of them done up to SMA 7 would perhaps save on some TOp training? I believe some H&Cs are extended to Upminster Depot at end of service, so SMA 6 wouldn't be enough to eliminate the competence requirement?

SMA3 will eliminate the competence requirement, as all H&C MET and west-end District drivers are currently operating CBTC, SMA3 will require all east-end District drivers to be ready.

The H&C trains to/from Upminster are driven by District crews from Barking.

 

[rebmcr]

SMA3 will eliminate the competence requirement

Is that a typo for SMA6?

 

[bluegoblin7]

Is that a typo for SMA6?

No. Once SMA3 goes live (Euston Square to Monument/Stepney Green) all SSR train operators will drive through the CBTC area on a daily basis.

 

[rebmcr]

No. Once SMA3 goes live (Euston Square to Monument/Stepney Green) all SSR train operators will drive through the CBTC area on a daily basis.

Right, what I meant was removing the lights-on-sticks signalling competency for Circle/H&C TOps.

 

[bluegoblin7]

For CnH drivers it would be SMA6; the trains that extend to/from Upminster (and Ealing Common) for stabling purposes are crewed by District T/Ops.