SSR resignalling

[bramling]

Semi-correct (by my understanding at least). It is possible to get a blue signal before the train is ready to depart, but the train should have a target point *and* be communicating with the system - because blue also means that communicating trains (only) can proceed - if there is no target point this could be an issue. Trains can be held by Service Controllers with a blue aspect, meaning no white lights on the bodyside.

A train won’t get the white lights before the blue has illuminated, however.

There seems to be some confusion about this, however from memory I'm fairly sure that the signals at JNUP boundary points would only change from red to blue once the train had received its target point.

There is a bit of an issue with the RTDIs in that they seem to be programmed to give a white visual once the first track in advance of the train has a limit of movement authority over it, even though in some cases more than this is required before the driver sees a "target point" on his in-cab display. This is a problem at somewhere like Embankment northbound as the system will hold a train until the train has a clear run to Charing Cross in order to avoid the rear of the train coming to a stand still in Embankment platform (a LU requirement, not a Thales design principle), What this means in practice is platform staff can see a white visual on the RTDI whilst the driver still has no target point to depart. Whether this behaviour applies to the migration starting signals I couldn't say, though if any S stock drivers on here can comment on this then I'd be interested to hear their experiences.

I've no idea if this has undesirable behaviour has been modified on 4LM.

 

[Dstock7080]

As @bluegoblin7 says, on 4LM boundary the signal will be red on arrival.
Once train is successfully communicating, signal will change to blue, three trainstops will lower, initially without target point or white RTDi illuminated

 

[Dstock7080]

SMA 3 now officially delayed.

No - it'll be a miracle if it happens this year.

Initial dates for SMA 5 (Sloane Square to Paddington/Olympia/Barons Court/Fulham Broadway), which encompasses Earl's Court, was for the very end of this year, but this was prior to the slippage of SMAs 0.5-3. SMA 3, which should have gone live this coming weekend, is now indefinitely postponed whilst issues are ironed out, with no dates yet confirmed.

In theory, once SMA 3 goes live the whole process should start to speed up a little bit, at least as far as 'conventional' railway is concerned (i.e. not the underlay/overlay areas).

To be honest, it's all gone a bit quiet on 4LM recently...

Due to recent events installation and other work was halted.

A new date for SMA 3 commissioning in 2021 has been mentioned.

As has descoping some of the later area commissions

New aspiration dates:
SMA 3 6/7 March 2021
SMA 4 24/25 April 2021
SMA 5 6/7 November 2021
SMA 6 February 2022
SMA 7 April 2022
SMA 8 2022
SMA 9 2023
SMA 13 2023
SMA 14 2023.

SMAs 10/11/12 officially descoped and removed.
Work on Farringdon City sidings deferred for one year.

 

[Domh245]

It's depressing to see sections descoped and removed, odds on it being "rescoped" you would think are minimal, with consequent issues around competency and not being able to remove tripcock equipment from the trains. I can't remember what SMAs 10-13 were off the top of my head however, but presumably these involved the complicated under/overlay sections (Wimbledon/Richmond, Northern bits of Met, Ealing, etc)?

 

[Nym]

But reduction of maintenance for equipment you're already maintaining does not make a capital investment business case, especially when maintaining other equipment, or the same in a different configuration is required.

TBH, I always doubted it would ever get north of Harrow on the Hill, or even Wembley Park for that matter.

 

[Domh245]

But reduction of maintenance for equipment you're already maintaining does not make a capital investment business case, especially when maintaining other equipment, or the same in a different configuration is required.

Granted, but tripcock can't last forever surely? All this does is push it down the line, with high likelihood that when they do come to replace it Thales (or whoever) won't be able to offer the same system, and you end up with SSL having 2 different CBTC systems

 

[bluegoblin7]

I can't remember what SMAs 10-13 were off the top of my head however, but presumably these involved the complicated under/overlay sections (Wimbledon/Richmond, Northern bits of Met, Ealing, etc)?

10-Barons Court-Chiswick Park/Richmond
11-Chiswick Park-Ealing Broadway
12-Fulham Broadway-Wimbledon.

All of the Met remains in scope at this stage.

 

[rebmcr]

I can't remember what SMAs 10-13 were

I posted this map on page 1 — but it's now almost two years ago!

For the benefit of other readers, here's an excerpt from this TfL PDF where I found a diagram.View attachment 51304

 

[Nym]

Granted, but tripcock can't last forever surely? All this does is push it down the line, with high likelihood that when they do come to replace it Thales (or whoever) won't be able to offer the same system, and you end up with SSL having 2 different CBTC systems

I've spent many a time actually considering this situation on SSL, and for so long as it's a mixed traffic railway between Neasden and Ruislip / Ammersham the use of "CBTC" in the form that TfL has currently selected is not the answer.
Unfortunately, the only realistic prospect long term for this section of railway is something with significant interoperability between protection systems, so something that is abstracted between the protection system and the interlocking system is required.

Basically, the only system that would have worked, off the shelf, and continued to work into the world of ETCS or TPWS+ implementation for Chiltern and other systems for LUL Engineering Vehicles would have been what was originally destined to be fitted under the days of Metronet. Or some other type of system that makes use of infrastructure based train detection and movement interlocking. Particularly with the work that had been done by the 1st contractor in preparation for S Stock's arrival onto the network anyway, that in a lot of places is now going to be ripped out and thrown in a skip, bearly 10 years old.

 

[Mojo]

SMA3 has gone live as of a little hour ago; this now means that Hammersmith (Met) / Paddington (District/Circle) / Finchley Rd - Stepney Green / Monument is now covered by the new signalling system. Service is not expected to be advertised widely, but is open for customers.

 

[HSTEd]

Has this scheme been going so long as to have predated widespread use of ETCS?

 

[Mojo]

Has this scheme been going so long as to have predated widespread use of ETCS?

The contract with Thales was not signed until Summer 2015. The original contract was signed with Bombardier in June 2011 and the second contract in 2013. In any case, ECTS based systems are not required for railways such as London Underground.

 

[Bald Rick]

Has this scheme been going so long as to have predated widespread use of ETCS?

ETCS isn’t quite quick enough for metros at present. The cycle time is too long (the number of times each train gets a message).

 

[Nym]

The contract with Thales was not signed until Summer 2015. The original contract was signed with Bombardier in June 2011 and the second contract in 2013. In any case, ECTS based systems are not required for railways such as London Underground.

And the contract with Invensys (Siemens( even further before that.

 

[Mojo]

SMA4 (Monument <> Sloane Sq) is undergoing the final checks this weekend with a hopeful imminent launch in public service.

 

[ijmad]

SMA4 (Monument <> Sloane Sq) is undergoing the final checks this weekend with a hopeful imminent launch in public service.

Are trains running through SMA4 from East to West just out of passenger service?

I see that a signal failure earlier at Plaistow has caused delays to Ealing Broadway/Richmond so I assume this is what's going on.

 

[Dstock7080]

Are trains running through SMA4 from East to West just out of passenger service?

yes, from 0800 trains are running out of service Sloane Square<>Monument, on train destinations can only show South Kensington and Tower Hill.

Passenger services resumed at 1315.

 

[hpknow]

A pictorial report was coming out on my blog early this evening however a District Line worker upset me (not even disability aware at all like soo many railway workers sadly) so I scrapped my earlier venture and went home. I tried again this evening and hopefully a report will be up soon, very late though as it goes as I've just got home from doing the run around the new section Tower Hill to Sloane Square.


Just published it... (dont ask me why the text is large!)

District & Circle CBTC to Sloane Square begins​

 

[bluegoblin7]

There’s a lot of assumption and supposition in that post and it isn’t an accurate statement of how and why SMA4 was rolled out, nor of previous sections.

I also find it concerning that you are ‘threatening’ to publish a video of a member of staff; indeed the whole account seems a little off. If you’ve had a negative experience the correct way is to file a complaint with TfL who will investigate it; putting staff out to Internet trial is unfair and inappropriate.

 

[Dstock7080]

Just published it... (dont ask me why the text is large!)

District & Circle CBTC to Sloane Square begins​

You say in your blogs that no boundary support staff were at Monument or Stepney Green, there were staff at both stations from 6 March until 10 April, concentrating on Monument EB and Stepney WB.
The support staff at Sloane Square will only be there 1 week.

Tower Hill 10 points have certainly been disconnected:

 

[Dstock7080]

From Sat 12 June at Barons Court 26A/B points will be plain-lined, thus preventing westbound District trains access to the fast (Picc) line and Barons Court siding.
Signal WD43 Barons Court WB starter will have it's route indicators removed between then and September.

23A/B points at Hammersmith, EB fast to local (thus preventing EB District trains access back to the local) will be removed in September.

 

[rebmcr]

From Sat 12 June at Barons Court 26A/B points will be plain-lined, thus preventing westbound District trains access to the fast (Picc) line and Barons Court siding.
Signal WD43 Barons Court WB starter will have it's route indicators removed between then and September.

23A/B points at Hammersmith, EB fast to local (thus preventing EB District trains access back to the local) will be removed in September.

Are there any public-domain resources which detail point numbers like these?

 

[bluegoblin7]

Not that I’m aware of, but the information provided by @Dstock7080 should allow you to work out which are which on CartoMetro: http://cartometro.com/cartes/metro-london/

 

[rebmcr]

Not that I’m aware of, but the information provided by @Dstock7080 should allow you to work out which are which on CartoMetro: http://cartometro.com/cartes/metro-london/

My uncertainty about which ones I think they are there, indeed led me to ask the question! (I think I know which ones, but also there seems to be a path remaining untouched over trailing points, but which doesn't necessarily have a settable route?)

Perhaps someone in the know could help to clarify, by annotating a section of the Carto Metro map?

 

[Dstock7080]

26A/B red
23A/B green

 

[ijmad]

It still surprises me that the Piccadilly Line wasn't included in 4LM (5LM?) given it needs resignalling and has so many touch points with the other subsurface lines. I suppose adding CBTC to the existing stock may have been too much of a challenge vs designing it in to something newer.

 

[edwin_m]

It still surprises me that the Piccadilly Line wasn't included in 4LM (5LM?) given it needs resignalling and has so many touch points with the other subsurface lines. I suppose adding CBTC to the existing stock may have been too much of a challenge vs designing it in to something newer.

Fitting such an old fleet would be a nightmare. It's one reason why the D stock was replaced on the District line before end of life, and the Piccadilly units are older.

 

[Dstock7080]

Indeed most of the descoped 4LM areas have been left with the “make it a Piccadilly Line problem, not a 4LM problem.”

 

[100andthirty]

Fitting the 1973 tube stock Piccadilly line trains was actually part of the plan with the Bombardier resignalling contract - just ATP and cab signalling, not ATO. Even the possibility of extending the Bombardier contract to equip the whole line ready for the new trains when they came which then was by 2018/19! Clearly cancelling the Bombardier contract kicked that plan into touch, and they weren't revived when the Thales contract was being organised.

 

[swt_passenger]

Indeed most of the descoped 4LM areas have been left with the “make it a Piccadilly Line problem, not a 4LM problem.”

You’ve mentioned in previous threads the proposed changes to western District and Piccadilly destinations, and possible requirements for track and depot line changes in the Chiswick/Acton area to suit new service patterns.

Does that make it better to delay decisions about which signalling system goes in where?