Starting Network Railcard journey after ticket origin at exactly 10 o'clock

[johncrossley]

Is it permitted to use an Off-Peak Return (month return) with Network Railcard discount from A to B, but start the journey at C, which is between A and B, at exactly 10 o'clock in the morning? I can't use the ticket from A as that would mean leaving A before 10 o'clock, when the Network Railcard isn't valid. So I'm planning to cycle from A to C to get the earlier train, if it is allowed.

 

[Wolfie]

Three thoughts immediately come to mind. Firstly what are the restrictions on the ticket? Might they preclude starting short?
Secondly unless C is gated how would you actually prove that you started there were you to encounter a RPI?
Thirdly unless you have a bike that you can take with you on the train won't you have to go back to C to collect it?

 

[johncrossley]

Three thoughts immediately come to mind. Firstly what are the restrictions on the ticket? Might they preclude starting short?
Secondly unless C is gated how would you actually prove that you started there were you to encounter a RPI?
Thirdly unless you have a bike that you can take with you on the train won't you have to go back to C to collect it?

The ticket has restriction code 4B.

A and C are both gated.

I'm taking the bike on the train.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Secondly unless C is gated how would you actually prove that you started there were you to encounter a RPI?

Why would you need to?

 

[yorkie]

I don't like algebra questions but the general answer is yes.

Of course if you are starting at somewhere like Abbey Wood on Crossrail, you could travel at any time, such as departing at 0915 towards Paddington on a ticket to somewhere like Reading

 

[Kite159]

I did it a couple times last year, ticket from Grateley to London with a network railcard but getting a lift to start at Andover to catch the 10;05 service (09:59 from Grateley so annoyingly 1 minute before the railcard became valid). (When I was using a network railcard).

My suggestion would be to take a photo at station B to proof you were there in case you run into a RPI or guard which didn't believe you

No issue with the guards if they checked, or with the barriers at the London end.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I did it a couple times last year, ticket from Grateley to London with a network railcard but getting a lift to start at Andover to catch the 10;05 service (09:59 from Grateley so annoyingly 1 minute before the railcard became valid). (When I was using a network railcard).

My suggestion would be to take a photo at station B to proof you were there in case you run into a RPI or guard which didn't believe you

No issue with the guards if they checked, or with the barriers at the London end.

Why would you need to prove it to a RPI? They would need to prove you were using an invalid ticket, which they could only do if they caught you whilst the ticket was invalid

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would you need to prove it to a RPI? They would need to prove you were using an invalid ticket, which they could only do if they caught you whilst the ticket was invalid

I'd suggest having a read of Disputes and Prosecutions and then coming back to see if you think that post still makes practical sense.

 

[johncrossley]

I'd suggest having a read of Disputes and Prosecutions and then coming back to see if you think that post still makes practical sense.

Does that mean you think using a Network Railcard in this way is risky?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does that mean you think using a Network Railcard in this way is risky?

I'd say it is, yes. It is a definite edge-case and it is very likely you will at least have an argument with some staff. It's allowed, but I would be sure to have evidence of where you boarded. A photo of you, the station sign and clock if you can get them all in one would be a good bet. Another option is to buy the ticket online for collection and collect it at that intermediate station just before 10am so it'll have that date and time (and location?) printed on it.

It's similar to boarding at MKC with a ticket from Euston in the evening peak. Technically allowed, but the staff will not believe you.

 

[Graham H]

I know it seems to make it a nice easy rule but pre covid we had a London train leaving at 09:58, next stop just 3 mins up the line so card invalid for me but fine for passengers at the next stop.

I thought a lot of rules were 'not to arrive before' or 'not for departures between xx hours' for determining off peak etc but clearly railcards use a timed cutoff for simplicity and I am sure there are many examples of the OP situation.

To add fuel to the debate....what if my 09:58 was 3 mins late. Is the Network card restriction worded to just say travel before or trains due to depart before 10:00 ?

I did notice the Network Rail Card site does have a fairly lengthy list of services for which an easement applies allowing services even as early as 9am in some cases to be used so worth taking a look. In my neck of the woods its valid for an earlier service from Bedhampton at 09:37 to Waterloo and also Rowlands Castle on the same train but interestingly not for Havant which is the station between the two.

The easements presumably allow for situations where the first post 10am service is a long time after 10.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

Another option is to buy the ticket online for collection and collect it at that intermediate station just before 10am so it'll have that date and time (and location?) printed on it.

Excellent idea. Does this work with etickets I wonder eg buy it at 0959

 

[yorkie]

Excellent idea. Does this work with etickets I wonder eg buy it at 0959

The time of purchase is logged but this doesn't affect the validity.

The time of purchase does not appear on e-tickets (at least not ones I have just looked at) but may be visible to staff who inspect tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To add fuel to the debate....what if my 09:58 was 3 mins late. Is the Network card restriction worded to just say travel before or trains due to depart before 10:00 ?

It's trains timetabled at or after 1000 (including if they're a bit early), but in reality if the service is in that much of a mess people aren't going to get picky if you board a train at 1015 that you thought was the 1015 but was actually the 0945 half an hour late.

The time of purchase is logged but this doesn't affect the validity.

It doesn't affect the validity - it's valid whenever you buy it - but it may help your case in proving you didn't in fact board at the ticketed origin before 1000 if you find you need to appeal a Penalty Fare.

Edit: though be aware of being accused of not buying until you saw an inspector!

 

[skyhigh]

but may be visible to staff who inspect tickets.

It is visible.

 

[miklcct]

I'd suggest having a read of Disputes and Prosecutions and then coming back to see if you think that post still makes practical sense.

I see no way the railway can prove it to the criminal standard even if the matter is brought to court if the passenger doesn't do it.

The onus of proof is on the railways, not the passengers. Therefore, the only way a passenger can get caught with a time-restricted ticket is in the restricted time. As trains have CCTV, an image of it showing the passenger boarded after 10:00 already means there is no fare evasion committed.

Boarding the train immediately after 10:00 is a very common way to circumvent the restriction, or using another ticket for the one stop before 10:00.

 

[Watershed]

It's trains timetabled at or after 1000 (including if they're a bit early), but in reality if the service is in that much of a mess people aren't going to get picky if you board a train at 1015 that you thought was the 1015 but was actually the 0945 half an hour late.

No it's not.

The conditions say:

Network Railcard discounts apply for travel at or after 10.00 Monday to Friday

Unlike the wording of most time restrictions, which are based on scheduled departure or arrival times, this is based on the actual time of travel. So a late-running pre-10am service is fair game, provided it leaves at or after 10:00.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I stand corrected. That I guess also means if your 1000 train is one minute early... (though in reality that would be silly)

 

[Haywain]

That I guess also means if your 1000 train is one minute early... (though in reality that would be silly)

It is silly. In that situation it would be perfectly reasonable to rely on the scheduled departure time of 10:00.

 

[yorkie]

@Bletchleyite a lot of restriction codes are worded in the way you describe (but by no means all!), so that will be what you're thinking of.

 

[Kite159]

Why would you need to prove it to a RPI? They would need to prove you were using an invalid ticket, which they could only do if they caught you whilst the ticket was invalid

"I don't believe you boarded at Station B at 10;0X, instead you boarded at the origin station before 10am when that ticket was invalid, I will take your details down to pass to the revenue team etc".

Potentially opening up to hassle if a 3rd party like Transport Investigations Ltd get involved

 

[Wolfie]

"I don't believe you boarded at Station B at 10;0X, instead you boarded at the origin station before 10am when that ticket was invalid, I will take your details down to pass to the revenue team etc".

Potentially opening up to hassle if a 3rd party like Transport Investigations Ltd get involved

Exactly

 

[Class800]

Exactly

Sad that staff can get away with lying - 'you boarded at X' when you didn't - but the imbalance of power means I would not risk this sort of short start with a time restriction

 

[Wolfie]

Sad that staff can get away with lying - 'you boarded at X' when you didn't - but the imbalance of power means I would not risk this sort of short start with a time restriction

It's not necessarily a lie but more likely based on past experience. Truthfully how many people would cycle and then start short? Hence my earlier comment about gates. Hopefully the gate should put some form of marker on the ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"I don't believe you boarded at Station B at 10;0X, instead you boarded at the origin station before 10am when that ticket was invalid, I will take your details down to pass to the revenue team etc".

Potentially opening up to hassle if a 3rd party like Transport Investigations Ltd get involved

Yep. There's a nonzero chance that the place this would need to be defended is a Magistrates' Court, and for that evidence of where you boarded would be rather useful.

Does the origin station do "remote issue" on the TVM? If so, the best approach could well be to buy the ticket from the TVM at that station as close to 1000 as you reasonably can, and press the receipt button which will give you a receipt showing the origin. This would provide absolute evidence of what you did as there is no possibility you could have purchased from that TVM any way other than standing in front of it. Alternatively buy online for ToD and collect as late as possible.

 

[Haywain]

Hopefully the gate should put some form of marker on the ticket.

With an eTicket there would be a clear record of where the ticket has been scanned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With an eTicket there would be a clear record of where the ticket has been scanned.

There is, though the passenger doesn't get to see or have that record (unless a subject access request would work if their name is associated with it?)

Better to get evidence in the passenger's hand, e.g. a TVM receipt.

 

[Wolfie]

With an eTicket there would be a clear record of where the ticket has been scanned.

TY. With a standard ticket is the mag strip marked in some way?

There is, though the passenger doesn't get to see or have that record (unless a subject access request would work if their name is associated with it?)

Better to get evidence in the passenger's hand, e.g. a TVM receipt.

It is a damning indictment of how the railway currently is that passengers have to consider operating so defensively when exercising their legitimate rights.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is a damning indictment of how the railway currently is that passengers have to consider operating so defensively when exercising their legitimate rights.

I would very much agree.

 

[Haywain]

TY. With a standard ticket is the mag strip marked in some way?

Yes but it is much more difficult to read and interpret, and I doubt many stations or staff have the facility to do so. It isn't something that really exists for revenue protection purposes, in my view.