Starting short on a off peak day return after 09:30 on an Annual Gold Card

[infobleep]

I have an annual Gold Card which offers discounted fares after 09:30 Monday to Friday.

If I have a ticket between two stations and it allows me to start short, can I join at any station along the route, as long as it is after 09:30, even if to join the same rail service at my starting station it would have been before 09:30?

I'm sure the answer is yes but I just wanted to make sure.

 

[AM9]

I have an annual Gold Card which offers discounted fares after 09:30 Monday to Friday.

If I have a ticket between two stations and it allows me to start short, can I join at any station along the route, as long as it is after 09:30, even if to join the same rail service at my starting station it would have been before 09:30?

I'm sure the answer is yes but I just wanted to make sure.

I doubt it because (usually) the restriction on the ticket at the discounted price after 09:30 is applicable for the whole journey on that train. So if your train leaves the station that the ticket is valid from before 09:30, then the ticket would be invalid throughout the journey. That scenario would be particularly true if travelling in the direction of peak flow, (i.e. towards London), and many restrictions are defined in barring travel on trains that arrive at a London destination typically before 10:00. If the time of your journey is criitical such that a later station would be OK before 09:30, then a ticket from that station would be valid. If it was a return, an excess might be available for the return journey later in the day.

 

[infobleep]

I doubt it because (usually) the restriction on the ticket at the discounted price after 09:30 is applicable for the whole journey on that train. So if your train leaves the station that the ticket is valid from before 09:30, then the ticket would be invalid throughout the journey. That scenario would be particularly true if travelling in the direction of peak flow, (i.e. towards London), and many restrictions are defined in barring travel on trains that arrive at a London destination typically before 10:00. If the time of your journey is criitical such that a later station would be OK before 09:30, then a ticket from that station would be valid. If it was a return, an excess might be available for the return journey later in the day.

I take your point. I probably didn't make myself clear. It's not the ticket that is restricted to after 09:30, it's the Gold Card discount on the said ticket.

 

[MikeWh]

I have an annual Gold Card which offers discounted fares after 09:30 Monday to Friday.

If I have a ticket between two stations and it allows me to start short, can I join at any station along the route, as long as it is after 09:30, even if to join the same rail service at my starting station it would have been before 09:30?

I'm sure the answer is yes but I just wanted to make sure.

Yes, if you have a different ticket for the bit before 0930.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt it because (usually) the restriction on the ticket at the discounted price after 09:30 is applicable for the whole journey on that train. So if your train leaves the station that the ticket is valid from before 09:30, then the ticket would be invalid throughout the journey. That scenario would be particularly true if travelling in the direction of peak flow, (i.e. towards London), and many restrictions are defined in barring travel on trains that arrive at a London destination typically before 10:00. If the time of your journey is criitical such that a later station would be OK before 09:30, then a ticket from that station would be valid. If it was a return, an excess might be available for the return journey later in the day.

That would be true if it was a ticket restriction, but Railcard restrictions are different. Yes, it is allowed in this case, though it might be worth speaking to the guard before boarding so they know you did board after 0930.

 

[infobleep]

That would be true if it was a ticket restriction, but Railcard restrictions are different. Yes, it is allowed in this case, though it might be worth speaking to the guard before boarding so they know you did board after 0930.

Thanks. That is what I thought. I'd actually be changing trains after 9:30, were I to do the whole journey, as the ticket requires a change of train en route and my intention was to join at the station of the train change.

 

[AM9]

I take your point. I probably didn't make myself clear. It's not the ticket that is restricted to after 09:30, it's the Gold Card discount on the said ticket.

But the ticket that you will have is discounted by the Railcard so cannot be separated from the 09:30 start restriction unless you can clearly demonstrate that you didn't travel before that time as Bletchleyite suggests.

 

[Watershed]

But the ticket that you will have is discounted by the Railcard so cannot be separated from the 09:30 start restriction unless you can clearly demonstrate that you didn't travel before that time as Bletchleyite suggests.

There is no requirement to demonstrate anything. The burden of proof lies with the TOC if they want to allege there is an irregularity.

 

[MikeWh]

There is no requirement to demonstrate anything. The burden of proof lies with the TOC if they want to allege there is an irregularity.

True, but anything you can do to help the proof is to your benefit. Another ticket covering the early part of the journey is cast iron, but making sure someone is aware that you're starting short can also help.

 

[AM9]

There is no requirement to demonstrate anything. The burden of proof lies with the TOC if they want to allege there is an irregularity.

That's true, but assuming the OP's concocted the interpretation of the rules to arrive at the destination a little earlier, the TOC's representative's process of establishing the details at a gate could easily take more time that was intended to be saved by the irregularity. There is also the difficulty that any claim of delay-repay might encounter when tendering a ticket that was shorted.

 

[David Goddard]

Hi @infobleep, thanks for raising this as I have often wondered the same.

So my example in this case is:
Tilehurst to London Paddington, there is a combination which leaves at 09:59, direct to London arrive 11:05 or change Reading to arrive London 10:40.

A Network Card is not valid until 10:00, so a discounted ticket would be barred on this train from Tilehurst, however if I took the bus to Reading and boarded there, am I OK to board any train after 10:00 (first one is at 10:04 arr 10:29) from there with my discounted ticket with origin of Tilehurst?
Would want the origin to be Tilehurst in order to get back there later.

 

[Watershed]

Hi @infobleep, thanks for raising this as I have often wondered the same.

So my example in this case is:
Tilehurst to London Paddington, there is a combination which leaves at 09:59, direct to London arrive 11:05 or change Reading to arrive London 10:40.

A Network Card is not valid until 10:00, so a discounted ticket would be barred on this train from Tilehurst, however if I took the bus to Reading and boarded there, am I OK to board any train after 10:00 (first one is at 10:04 arr 10:29) from there with my discounted ticket with origin of Tilehurst?
Would want the origin to be Tilehurst in order to get back there later.

Yes, that is perfectly valid. The restriction is on when you start using the ticket, not on when the train departs the station printed on the ticket (if, in fact, your Reading train even stops at Tilehurst at all).

 

[infobleep]

True, but anything you can do to help the proof is to your benefit. Another ticket covering the early part of the journey is cast iron, but making sure someone is aware that you're starting short can also help.

I guess a photo of myself with a station departure board in the background should do it.

That's true, but assuming the OP's concocted the interpretation of the rules to arrive at the destination a little earlier, the TOC's representative's process of establishing the details at a gate could easily take more time that was intended to be saved by the irregularity. There is also the difficulty that any claim of delay-repay might encounter when tendering a ticket that was shorted.

I don't think the final destination has a barrier.

Hi @infobleep, thanks for raising this as I have often wondered the same.

So my example in this case is:
Tilehurst to London Paddington, there is a combination which leaves at 09:59, direct to London arrive 11:05 or change Reading to arrive London 10:40.

A Network Card is not valid until 10:00, so a discounted ticket would be barred on this train from Tilehurst, however if I took the bus to Reading and boarded there, am I OK to board any train after 10:00 (first one is at 10:04 arr 10:29) from there with my discounted ticket with origin of Tilehurst?
Would want the origin to be Tilehurst in order to get back there later.

Thanks. I was actually debating whether to post or not before I did so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the ticket that you will have is discounted by the Railcard so cannot be separated from the 09:30 start restriction unless you can clearly demonstrate that you didn't travel before that time as Bletchleyite suggests.

You don't need to demonstrate it, but if it's easy to do so (quick chat with the guard before boarding, say) it's wise because it ensures no hassle.

 

[AM9]

You don't need to demonstrate it, but if it's easy to do so (quick chat with the guard before boarding, say) it's wise because it ensures no hassle.

Which is good advice, - as I said in post #10, "That's true, but assuming the OP has concocted the interpretation of the rules to arrive at the destination a little earlier, the TOC's representative's process of establishing the details at a gate could easily take more time that was intended to be saved by the irregularity." Failure to arm one's self with something indicating that there wasn't any fraudulent travel could result the plan to arrive earlier pointless as an RPO or guard might take some time 'understanding' the arrangement, thereby delaying the traveller beyond the time that might have taken starting from the ticket's origin after 09:30.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is good advice, - as I said in post #10, "That's true, but assuming the OP has concocted the interpretation of the rules to arrive at the destination a little earlier, the TOC's representative's process of establishing the details at a gate could easily take more time that was intended to be saved by the irregularity." Failure to arm one's self with something indicating that there wasn't any fraudulent travel could result the plan to arrive earlier pointless as an RPO or guard might take some time 'understanding' the arrangement, thereby delaying the traveller beyond the time that might have taken starting from the ticket's origin after 09:30.

I wouldn't say they have concocted anything - Railcard rules are simply that you can't be on a train before the specified time - but it is best to avoid the risk of being misinterpreted.

 

[Watershed]

Which is good advice, - as I said in post #10, "That's true, but assuming the OP has concocted the interpretation of the rules to arrive at the destination a little earlier, the TOC's representative's process of establishing the details at a gate could easily take more time that was intended to be saved by the irregularity." Failure to arm one's self with something indicating that there wasn't any fraudulent travel could result the plan to arrive earlier pointless as an RPO or guard might take some time 'understanding' the arrangement, thereby delaying the traveller beyond the time that might have taken starting from the ticket's origin after 09:30.

I'm unsure where you think this delay is going to come from. If they suspect misuse they are entitled to require your name and address. So give that and deal with it later, if they really think it's worth pursuing.

 

[AM9]

I'm unsure where you think this delay is going to come from. If they suspect misuse they are entitled to require your name and address. So give that and deal with it later, if they really think it's worth pursuing.

Not all TOC staff act reasonably and some are quite able to waste passengers' time, as is so often reported here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not all TOC staff act reasonably and some are quite able to waste passengers' time, as is so often reported here.

And not all prosecutions are reasonable.

If you're doing something that could be misinterpreted, it's always prudent to have some evidence that what you're doing is OK. Unless you like a lot of faffing about.

 

[AM9]

And not all prosecutions are reasonable.

If you're doing something that could be misinterpreted, it's always prudent to have some evidence that what you're doing is OK. Unless you like a lot of faffing about.

I didn't mention prosecutions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't mention prosecutions.

People have certainly been prosecuted, or at least got as far as Court at some personal cost for defence, for things that are perfectly allowed. So no, you didn't mention it, but I did because it is relevant.

I sometimes speak of the "Sun test" or "Daily Mail test" as a thing to do when working with kids. If you want to do something a bit out of the ordinary (but allowed under the rules of your organisation and the law, of course), whatever it might be, think about the worst headline either of those rags could write about it, and only if you're happy with that or can mitigate it with evidence that you weren't up to no good go ahead.

The railway equivalent would be "what is the worst possible way a particularly desperate RPI could interpret this?" - and if you're not OK with that, collect some simple evidence of what you did do if that's easy enough.

 

[AM9]

... The railway equivalent would be "what is the worst possible way a particularly desperate RPI could interpret this?" - and if you're not OK with that, collect some simple evidence of what you did do if that's easy enough.

That would be one way of avoiding trouble. I don't think we disagree on this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would be one way of avoiding trouble. I don't think we disagree on this.

Indeed not

 

[Watershed]

Not all TOC staff act reasonably and some are quite able to waste passengers' time, as is so often reported here.

I'm really struggling to see how you think they could waste passengers' time. They have no power to detain you, they can demand for your name and address, that's it. They can of course invite you to make a statement but you're under no obligation to do so.