Station minimum interchange time differentials

[yorkie]

Does anyone have a list of stations that have differential minimum interchange times for different TOC codes?

These minimum interchange times are used for journey planning purposes; adherence to these makes a difference as to whether or not a passenger is following a 'valid itinerary' for fares purposes.

For example Redhill has a minimum interchange time of 5 minutes, except when changing from & to Southern (SN) services, where it's 3 minutes (and yes I know Southern isn't a TOC, and the TOC here is GTR, but it's what the data says that counts in this case!), as can be seen here:

BR Times - Train Times & Station Platform Finder

Alternative journey planner featuring full schedule details including platforms and connection times, for every passenger train on the National Rail network.

www.brtimes.com

But what I'd like is a list of all of these examples if possible

 

[91103eastcoast]

Clapham Junction, 10 minutes unless changing from one Southern train to another Southern train

 

[alistairlees]

It’s in the data as the TOC specific interchange (TSI) file if I remember correctly. Only about 35 stations from memory.

 

[peri]

Just trying to derail the thread in the usual fashion, but how do they arrive at the transfer times?
Measure on a map or transfer walking very slowly?

 

[yorkie]

Just trying to derail the thread in the usual fashion, but how do they arrive at the transfer times?
Measure on a map or transfer walking very slowly?

The default is 5 mins, so it's only anything other than that which will be specified.

It will generally be to meet a particular requirement, for example if two infrequent services offer a cross-platform connection every hour within 3 mins of each other, it makes sense to cater for that if it is practicable to do so.

At Clapham Jn, the differential is a recognition that if you can exclude the possibility of having to walk between the South Central and South Western division platforms, you can save some time compared to the full 10 minutes that would otherwise be required.

 

[alistairlees]

Wimbledon, ashford International and London Victoria all have TOC-specific interchange times.

 

[yorkie]

It’s in the data as the TOC specific interchange (TSI) file if I remember correctly. Only about 35 stations from memory.

Yep, I was able to find it, thanks, here it is:

Ashford International	AFK	SE	SN	6
Ashford International	AFK	SN	SE	6
Barnham	BAA	SN	SN	2
Brockenhurst	BCU	SW	XC	5
Brockenhurst	BCU	XC	SW	5
Blackfriars	BFR	SE	SE	5
Blackfriars	BFR	SE	TL	5
Blackfriars	BFR	TL	SE	5
Bournemouth	BMH	SW	SW	3
Brighton	BTN	SN	SN	4
Clapham Junction	CLJ	SN	SN	5
Guildford	GLD	GW	GW	4
Gatwick Airport	GTW	SE	SE	5
Gatwick Airport	GTW	SE	SN	5
Gatwick Airport	GTW	SN	SE	5
Gatwick Airport	GTW	SN	SN	5
Haywards Heath	HHE	SN	XC	5
Haywards Heath	HHE	TL	XC	5
Haywards Heath	HHE	XC	SN	5
Haywards Heath	HHE	XC	TL	5
Leatherhead	LHD	SN	SN	4
Leamington Spa	LMS	CH	CH	3
Luton Airport Parkway	LTN	TL	TL	4
Luton	LUT	TL	TL	4
Par	PAR	GW	GW	5
Poole	POO	SW	SW	4
Redhill	RDH	SN	SN	3
St.Denys	SDN	SW	SW	3
St.Erth	SER	GW	GW	5
Southampton Central	SOU	SN	SN	4
Southampton Central	SOU	SN	SW	4
Southampton Central	SOU	SW	SN	4
Southampton Central	SOU	SW	SW	4
Sutton	SUO	TL	TL	1
Tulse Hill	TUH	TL	TL	4
London Victoria	VIC	SE	SE	10
London Victoria	VIC	SE	SN	10
London Victoria	VIC	SN	SE	10
London Victoria	VIC	SN	SN	10
Wimbledon	WIM	SN	SN	5
Wimbledon	WIM	SN	TL	5
Wimbledon	WIM	TL	SN	5

 

[father_jack]

This twitter exchange humoured me quite a lot. Pax wants a plus 3 at Reading to work !!! Fair play to the normally lame twitter operator for putting them in their place, https://twitter.com/GWRHelp/status/1331317437426491394

K Jackson

@kjackson1984
·
Nov 24

And
@GWRHelp
is back to their norma form as the 18:34 from Paddington to Reading fails to leave on time, meaning zero chance of getting the connection. It is literally the only one in the last hour to Reading to not leave on time.






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Great Western Railway

@GWRHelp
·
Nov 24

Hi there, sorry about the delay. I can see this train is currently running 2 minutes behind - Brad


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K Jackson

@kjackson1984
·
Nov 24

Well it left three minutes late, so your information is wrong, and my connection was literally only 3 minutes, taking at least 90 seconds to get from one platform to the other


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K Jackson

@kjackson1984
·
Nov 24

Yep, connection missed. Imagine my surprise!


1

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K Jackson

@kjackson1984
·
Nov 24

@GWRHelp
is it actually possible for your 1834 to run on time on a regular basis? In the four weeks I’ve been catching it, it has only arrived in Reading on time twice. There was no reason for it to leave Paddington late today


1












Great Western Railway

@GWRHelp
·
Nov 24

Our systems are showing that this train arrived on time into Reading this evening - Brad




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K Jackson

@kjackson1984
·
Nov 24

It really didn’t. It arrived at 18:59:13. Don’t care what your system says. I was on the train. Can assure you it didn’t arrive at 18:57.


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K Jackson

@kjackson1984
·
Nov 24

@GWRHelp
I was looking specifically at the time in the platform clocks as the train pulled in to figure out if I could make it to my connection. It also didn’t help that the doors didn’t open for 15/20 seconds after the train stopped


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Great Western Railway

@GWRHelp
·
Nov 24

What is your connection please? - Brad


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K Jackson

@kjackson1984
·
Nov 24

7pm to Basingstoke (my stop is on that line). I ran from Platform 9 and didn’t come close to making it as it had already pulled off


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Great Western Railway

@GWRHelp

Replying to
@kjackson1984
Thanks for confirming. This is not the valid connection for this journey. There is a 7 minute minimum connection time for Reading - Brad



7:23 PM · Nov 24, 2020·Conversocial

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K Jackson

@kjackson1984
·
Nov 24

Replying to
@GWRHelp
Yeah? Still a possible connection though, isn’t it. It’s not like I would hit a theoretical barrier if I tried to board the connection before the 7 minutes had passed. It’s a connection I would have comfortably made had your train not left Paddington/arrived at Reading late














K Jackson

@kjackson1984
·
Nov 24

Replying to
@GWRHelp
For example, last night your 1834 left Paddington on time and made it into Reading at 1857. I got the connection, but by your logic I didn’t as that was within 7 minutes

 

[alistairlees]

Yep, I was able to find it, thanks, here it is:

Ashford International	AFK	SE	SN	6
Ashford International	AFK	SN	SE	6
Barnham	BAA	SN	SN	2
Barnham	BCU	SW	XC	5
Brockenhurst	BCU	XC	SW	5
Blackfriars	BFR	SE	SE	5
Blackfriars	BFR	SE	TL	5
Blackfriars	BFR	TL	SE	5
Bournemouth	BMH	SW	SW	3
Brighton	BTN	SN	SN	4
Clapham Junction	CLJ	SN	SN	5
Guildford	GLD	GW	GW	4
Gatwick Airport	GTW	SE	SE	5
Gatwick Airport	GTW	SE	SN	5
Gatwick Airport	GTW	SN	SE	5
Gatwick Airport	GTW	SN	SN	5
Gatwick Airport	HHE	SN	XC	5
Gatwick Airport	HHE	TL	XC	5
Haywards Heath	HHE	XC	SN	5
Haywards Heath	HHE	XC	TL	5
Leatherhead	LHD	SN	SN	4
Leamington Spa	LMS	CH	CH	3
Luton Airport Parkway	LTN	TL	TL	4
Luton	LUT	TL	TL	4
Par	PAR	GW	GW	5
Poole	POO	SW	SW	4
Redhill	RDH	SN	SN	3
St.Denys	SDN	SW	SW	3
St.Erth	SER	GW	GW	5
Southampton Central	SOU	SN	SN	4
Southampton Central	SOU	SN	SW	4
Southampton Central	SOU	SW	SN	4
Southampton Central	SOU	SW	SW	4
Sutton	SUO	TL	TL	1
Tulse Hill	TUH	TL	TL	4
London Victoria	VIC	SE	SE	10
London Victoria	VIC	SE	SN	10
London Victoria	VIC	SN	SE	10
London Victoria	VIC	SN	SN	10
Wimbledon	WIM	SN	SN	5
Wimbledon	WIM	SN	TL	5
Wimbledon	WIM	TL	SN	5

I'm sure some of the Wimbledon ones used to be 0 (zero)! I think it was the SN to SN one.

 

[_toommm_]

This twitter exchange humoured me quite a lot. Pax wants a plus 3 at Reading to work !!! Fair play to the normally lame twitter operator for putting them in their place, https://twitter.com/GWRHelp/status/1331317437426491394

He does this a lot, with the logic that it happened once (lucky) so it should happen every time no matter what.

There’s also this infallible logic:

https://twitter.com/kjackson1984/status/1326429935972601857?s=21

Also, the delay was down to them as their train, which was already late, crawled into the station I got on at, and when I say crawled, you’d be going faster if you were doing a leisurely stroll

And...

https://twitter.com/kjackson1984/status/1326430212138168321?s=21

When you’re already late, there is no reason at all to only going 3 or 4mph when pulling into a station. It only exasperates the delay. That is their fault.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yep, I was able to find it, thanks, here it is:

Ashford International	AFK	SE	SN	6
Ashford International	AFK	SN	SE	6
Barnham	BAA	SN	SN	2
Barnham	BCU	SW	XC	5
Brockenhurst	BCU	XC	SW	5
Blackfriars	BFR	SE	SE	5
Blackfriars	BFR	SE	TL	5
Blackfriars	BFR	TL	SE	5
Bournemouth	BMH	SW	SW	3
Brighton	BTN	SN	SN	4
Clapham Junction	CLJ	SN	SN	5
Guildford	GLD	GW	GW	4
Gatwick Airport	GTW	SE	SE	5
Gatwick Airport	GTW	SE	SN	5
Gatwick Airport	GTW	SN	SE	5
Gatwick Airport	GTW	SN	SN	5
Gatwick Airport	HHE	SN	XC	5
Gatwick Airport	HHE	TL	XC	5
Haywards Heath	HHE	XC	SN	5
Haywards Heath	HHE	XC	TL	5
Leatherhead	LHD	SN	SN	4
Leamington Spa	LMS	CH	CH	3
Luton Airport Parkway	LTN	TL	TL	4
Luton	LUT	TL	TL	4
Par	PAR	GW	GW	5
Poole	POO	SW	SW	4
Redhill	RDH	SN	SN	3
St.Denys	SDN	SW	SW	3
St.Erth	SER	GW	GW	5
Southampton Central	SOU	SN	SN	4
Southampton Central	SOU	SN	SW	4
Southampton Central	SOU	SW	SN	4
Southampton Central	SOU	SW	SW	4
Sutton	SUO	TL	TL	1
Tulse Hill	TUH	TL	TL	4
London Victoria	VIC	SE	SE	10
London Victoria	VIC	SE	SN	10
London Victoria	VIC	SN	SE	10
London Victoria	VIC	SN	SN	10
Wimbledon	WIM	SN	SN	5
Wimbledon	WIM	SN	TL	5
Wimbledon	WIM	TL	SN	5

I'm sure Cardiff Central use to have one if you were connecting to the Valley Lines and another for all other connections.

 

[yorkie]

This twitter exchange humoured me quite a lot. Pax wants a plus 3 at Reading to work !!! Fair play to the normally lame twitter operator for putting them in their place, https://twitter.com/GWRHelp/status/1331317437426491394

Blimey, that person comes across as really bitter. I can understand people being annoyed at train companies when they mess up, but GWR have done nothing wrong here.

I'm sure some of the Wimbledon ones used to be 0 (zero)! I think it was the SN to SN one.

I don't recall but it would make sense; it would of course be the same train, from the same platform.

It's possible that a train would be shown as terminating there, rather than at Sutton, and it's possible the arrival and departure times would have been in the same, in the public timetable at least.

Someone like @RJ might know. Indeed it was rumoured that the Sutton loop, along with the Fife Circle, ceased being advertised as a continuous loop to stop people like @RJ using loophole tickets (back in the day!), though I'm not sure whether to believe that or not

I'm sure Cardiff Central use to have one if you were connecting to the Valley Lines and another for all other connections.

Yes I am sure this is right too, but with Valley Lines no longer being a separate TOC (and no fudge as with GTR, to pretend it's a separate TOC for certain purposes), there is no way of achieving that in the current data structure.

 

[[.n]]

Yep, I was able to find it, thanks, here it is:

Brockenhurst	BCU	XC	SW	5
Bournemouth	BMH	SW	SW	3
Poole	POO	SW	SW	4
Southampton Central	SOU	SN	SN	4
Southampton Central	SOU	SN	SW	4
Southampton Central	SOU	SW	SN	4
Southampton Central	SOU	SW	SW	4

Some random observations

BCU, I can't work how there are different times between SWR and XC - it either cross platform from 1/2 3/4 or you using the bridge to go between those platforms

At BMH, this doesn't seem to take into account a change of platform from 1/2/3 to/from 4 - thats quite a trek, the worst being the walk from the country end of 2 to 4

At POO, you can only do SWR to SWR, XC don't run there anymore

At SOU, again its odd here that interchanges with XC presumably are 5 mins, given they use the same platform combinations as SWR and SN

 

[plugwash]

It looks to me like Southern and South Western (or their predecessors) wanted to reduce the minimum connection time in that area below the standard 5 minutes but crosscountry (or their predecessor) did not want to play ball.

It's interesting that at brokenhurst they seem to have reduced the default minimum connection time and then added exceptions for interchanges to/from crosscountry while at the other stations they have left the default minimum connection times alone.

 

[swt_passenger]

XC Gatwick, XC Barnham, another couple of stale items...

 

[alistairlees]

I don't recall but it would make sense; it would of course be the same train, from the same platform.

It's possible that a train would be shown as terminating there, rather than at Sutton, and it's possible the arrival and departure times would have been in the same, in the public timetable at least.

That’s correct. In the public timetable it was split at Wimbledon, even though it was actually a through train. The zero interchange avoided an unnecessary wait, though it did also create a fictitious interchange. Sutton might have been the same.

 

[JB_B]

XC Gatwick, XC Barnham, another couple of stale items...

I think for Barnham that's probably just a minor typo in post #7 - maybe because of the slightly inconsistent way the .TSI file is annotated with station names in the 5th field. The data CRS is correct: showing connections for SW,XC and XC,SW at BCU = Brockenhurst (and not Barnham).

Similarly, it looks like the other outdated XC ref you mention is actually to HHE=Haywards Heath not Gatwick. (I only have an oldish .TSI to hand so this might have changed.)

 

[yorkie]

I've attached the TSI data file to post 7.

 

[infobleep]

Southern; Gatwick Express and Thameslink to Great Western Railway services at Gatwick Airport is 10 minute interchange, whereas otherwise it"s 5 minutes I believe.

I don't see why you need longer to get from platform 1 to 7 if arriving on Great Western Railway service.

The tune it takes to get across the station should be identical.

This leads to the situation where you get recommendations to change at Three Bridges and Redhill to join the North Downs Line, as at both stations the mimum interchange between services is 5 minutes. Whilst changing once at Gatwick Airport isn't recommended as the interchange is 10 minutes.

 

[talldave]

I'm wondering what you're meant to be doing at Sutton in 1 minute?

And will any of the Gatwick figures need changing whilst it's building site?

 

[RJ]

Someone like @RJ might know. Indeed it was rumoured that the Sutton loop, along with the Fife Circle, ceased being advertised as a continuous loop to stop people like @RJ using loophole tickets (back in the day!), though I'm not sure whether to believe that or not

Sorry to disappoont but it's more than likely made up. I never crossed paths with FCC or Scotrail and suburban loop ticketing was never in my MO! Having a Sutton via Wimbledon and a Wimbledon via Sutton service was confusing! The way it's marketed now is easier to understand.

 

[Kite159]

I'm wondering what you're meant to be doing at Sutton in 1 minute?

It's due to the Thameslink services "terminating" there before restarting the next service. If they didn't have the reduction to 1 minute journey planners will tell you to change trains and wait 30 minutes if you were doing a West Sutton - Hackbridge journey (even though it's the same train).

Bit like in the northern timetable when a train from Ormskirk would terminate at Preston and then form a Blackpool South service, it's under the minimum connection time so it won't show as a valid journey even though it's the same unit

 

[philjo]

Stevenage used to have a longer minimum connection time between Great Northern and LNER services compared to changing between 2 Great Northern services. (Probably when FCC and East coast were operating?) Not sure if that is still the case? Since the Thameslink services now run more frequently it is less critical when arriving on a southbound LNER service to make a connection to a Cambridge service without having to wait for up to an hour.

 

[paul1609]

I think for Barnham that's probably just a minor typo in post #7 - maybe because of the slightly inconsistent way the .TSI file is annotated with station names in the 5th field. The data CRS is correct: showing connections for SW,XC and XC,SW at BCU = Brockenhurst (and not Barnham).

Similarly, it looks like the other outdated XC ref you mention is actually to HHE=Haywards Heath not Gatwick. (I only have an oldish .TSI to hand so this might have changed.)

Indeed Barnham has never been served by XC. I think in BR days a couple of Brighton to Manchester trains were diverted along the coastway but thats all.

 

[father_jack]

The whole connection time thing certainly needs to be looked at throughout the country and by all the TOCs who work from a station.

Newport has been rubbish for ages but is still a plus 5 minute minmum connection. Say "Bert and Ada" leave Paddington and are in the the first class coach on the blocks, by the time they faff about at the England end of platform 2 and have to get to platform 4 for the "marches" (Hereford etc) the 5 minutes will have been used before they even get to the footbridge.

Again, Reading as our twitter complainant has brought it up, alight rear of train from Gatwick with bags and baggage on platform 4/5/6to go to platform 15 in 7 minutes ? I don't think so.

 

[MotCO]

Southern; Gatwick Express and Thameslink to Great Western Railway services at Gatwick Airport is 10 minute interchange, whereas otherwise it"s 5 minutes I believe.

This leads to the situation where you get recommendations to change at Three Bridges and Redhill to join the North Downs Line, as at both stations the mimum interchange between services is 5 minutes. Whilst changing once at Gatwick Airport isn't recommended as the interchange is 10 minutes.

Is the difference to encourage people to change at less busy stations?

 

[infobleep]

Is the difference to encourage people to change at less busy stations?

I have no idea but if so surely it would apply across the board. Besides how does one travelling from Brighton change to a North Downs Line at a less busy station other than Gatwick Airport, without changing twice?

There are some regular rare exceptions for Sunday morning or late general evening trains where for operational reasons they go via Redhill but that's about it. I can't remember the precise details of hand or the direction of travel for the services. Be them up or down trains.

 

[Ianno87]

Stevenage used to have a longer minimum connection time between Great Northern and LNER services compared to changing between 2 Great Northern services. (Probably when FCC and East coast were operating?) Not sure if that is still the case? Since the Thameslink services now run more frequently it is less critical when arriving on a southbound LNER service to make a connection to a Cambridge service without having to wait for up to an hour.

Stevenage is now 4 minutes (IIRC) for all connections.

 

[krus_aragon]

I'm sure Cardiff Central use to have one if you were connecting to the Valley Lines and another for all other connections.

Yes I am sure this is right too, but with Valley Lines no longer being a separate TOC (and no fudge as with GTR, to pretend it's a separate TOC for certain purposes), there is no way of achieving that in the current data structure.

It was 3 minutes for Valley to Valley transfers. This differential existed long into ATW's reign, so wasn't inextricably linked to the Valley Lines franchise.

If I had to guess, I'd suggest that it was done away with when platform 8 opened at Cardiff Central. Prior to that, (practically) all Valley services used the same island platform, making for easy cross-platform or same-platform transfers. Now that a visit to the underpass may be required, 3 minutes was probably cutting it too tight.

 

[SargeNpton]

I'm sure some of the Wimbledon ones used to be 0 (zero)! I think it was the SN to SN one.

The Wimbledon zero was between two Thameslink services, but only because the trains running round the loop used to be timed to start/finish there. E.g. Luton-Tooting-Wimbledon with the same train then have a separate operating schedule for Wimbledon-Sutton-Mitcham Junction-Luton.