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Step 3 confirmed for 17th May

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MikeWM

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And many of those presenting in those areas are unvaccinated despite being eligible. It's their choice if they don't want to be vaccinated and there are some who fall into that category on this very forum but we shouldn't be waiting for them.

I think it is fairly clear, on here at least, that those of us who have chosen not to be vaccinated are some of the strongest and most consistent anti-restriction voices too. We're quite happy to take our chances (indeed, in my case I'd have been quiite happy to take my chances since all the restrictions were started 14 months ago, if I'd been allowed to).

Perhaps it is a function of where I'm looking, but I'd say that also applies to pretty much everyone I've seen who isn't choosing to be vaccinated.

I'm not even sure that the 'I don't want to be vaccinated but I want restrictions to continue' people aren't entirely mythical. If they do exist, I imagine they are *very* small in number. Certainly insignificant comparted to the rather incomprehensible 'I'm vaccinated but still want restrictions to continue' people, who seem to be seen everywhere.
 
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VauxhallandI

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I thought they weren't required at Wembley - or did I misread that?
They were required at the League Cup Final a few weeks ago. In fact we had nose police wandering through the crowds disturbing the views constantly. Can't comment on the FA Cup Final mind as we lost in the semi...

I didn't wear one and now have the collectors item of a Wembley exempt lanyard, oh what joy.
 

Drogba11CFC

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My favourite breakfast restaurant decided not to open until Wednesday - one of the two days of the week that I'm in the office.
 

VauxhallandI

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I was surprised how few people didn’t have a mask on. The sections of the crowd I saw almost everyone had a covering.
How anyone can claim Wembley is inside I will never know.

What will be interesting in future times when Councils say what ever you are attesting to do has to be indoors and say your proposed venue isn't when in Covid times they said it was.

I can't quite think of an example but I'm sure there will be one.
 

bramling

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I think it is fairly clear, on here at least, that those of us who have chosen not to be vaccinated are some of the strongest and most consistent anti-restriction voices too. We're quite happy to take our chances (indeed, in my case I'd have been quiite happy to take my chances since all the restrictions were started 14 months ago, if I'd been allowed to).

Perhaps it is a function of where I'm looking, but I'd say that also applies to pretty much everyone I've seen who isn't choosing to be vaccinated.

I'm not even sure that the 'I don't want to be vaccinated but I want restrictions to continue' people aren't entirely mythical. If they do exist, I imagine they are *very* small in number. Certainly insignificant comparted to the rather incomprehensible 'I'm vaccinated but still want restrictions to continue' people, who seem to be seen everywhere.

We do have one at my work; anti-vax, but expects to continue shielding.
 

MikeWM

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We do have one at my work; anti-vax, but expects to continue shielding.

:rolleyes: Unless there is a medical reason where they shouldn't have the vaccine, that's clearly unsustainable and really rather silly.

Isn't shielding finished now, anyway?
 

nlogax

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We do have one at my work; anti-vax, but expects to continue shielding.
That's a rare cocktail of lunacy and entitlement right there.

Just arrived at the hotel which I'll be calling home for much of this week. The hotel bar is open, people are milling about in a very 2019 fashion and I'm going out for dinner later, inside an actual restaurant where there'll be lots of booze. This is all very exciting.
 
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Cdd89

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Is there any continuing relevance to “linked households”? I was racking my brains and can’t think (in England)! Except perhaps if a group wishes to exceed the rule of 6 under the single household rule?
 

liam456

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Is there any continuing relevance to “linked households”? I was racking my brains and can’t think (in England)! Except perhaps if a group wishes to exceed the rule of 6 under the single household rule?
I think in England yes, Scotland no.
 

YorkshireBear

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Today's stats seem to show that the increase in daily positive tests is not being sustained which is hopeful for the media stopping the Indian variant panic stories. Deaths have increased slightly but we are not as such low numbers it's hard to pick anything out. As long as we keep the 7 day average low I'm hopeful.


Just noticed hospitals down below 1000 across UK too so all heading in a good direction.
 

VauxhallandI

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Today's stats seem to show that the increase in daily positive tests is not being sustained which is hopeful for the media stopping the Indian variant panic stories. Deaths have increased slightly but we are not as such low numbers it's hard to pick anything out. As long as we keep the 7 day average low I'm hopeful.


Just noticed hospitals down below 1000 across UK too so all heading in a good direction.
The media are more dangerous than any variant.
 

Jonny

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The media are more dangerous than any variant.

They knowingly and clearly exaggerate and yet expect us still to take everything they say at face value. Or worse, they play up the ^scary^ side and bury the good bit in the later paragraphs. That's just text-based media.
 

Mintona

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Another forum I use, everybody is expecting the Step 4 easements to be postponed and are quite happy with it. I’m not so keen myself. But I can definitely see it happening.
 

NorthOxonian

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Another forum I use, everybody is expecting the Step 4 easements to be postponed and are quite happy with it. I’m not so keen myself. But I can definitely see it happening.
I certainly think it's possible, particularly since we know the government tend to be craven about these things. But I wouldn't say I expect the easing to be delayed, and certainly don't expect it to be substantially delayed (if there is a delay, it's more likely to be a week or two than months).

Definitely too early to make any kind of confident statement either way - the positivity rate fell in Bolton today and cases there look like they could be about to top out.
 

joncombe

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Another forum I use, everybody is expecting the Step 4 easements to be postponed and are quite happy with it. I’m not so keen myself. But I can definitely see it happening.
Yes I already feel the Government is softening us up for that already. SAGE were in a spin since late last week trying to stop the easement this morning. They failed in that but I think they will keep the pressure on to delay the 21st June. I don't think it is necessary at all. In the areas with this new variant is more prevalent even Matt Hancock stated that in Bolton and Blackburn the majority of people in hospital with Covid have chosen not to have the vaccination (I.E. they have been offered it and declined). I know Matt Hancock is of course going to use this to push for increased take up of the vaccination.

However I do not think it is fair to delay the releasing of restrictions for everyone to protect people who are more vulnerable to Covid have been offered the vaccine and chosen not to have it. I completely support there choice (and hence why I don't support vaccine passports either). it should be peoples choice whether to have the vaccination or not but that people need to accept and understand the risk of choosing not to do so (and the risk, in my view, is they are more likely to get Covid or have a more serious case of it .... I am not suggesting a consequence is they should be excluded from society). Just as people can, do and should chose whether to have the Flu vaccination or not. I choose not to (and accept that there is therefore an increase risk I'll get flu, a risk I'm happy to accept). Likewise I have had the 1st dose of the Covid vaccination. My choice, I am not anti-vaccination but I'm certainly not forced or coerced vaccination either. But people choosing not to be vaccinated should also not impact on the level of restrictions everyone has to live under.

I certainly think it's possible, particularly since we know the government tend to be craven about these things. But I wouldn't say I expect the easing to be delayed, and certainly don't expect it to be substantially delayed (if there is a delay, it's more likely to be a week or two than months).

Definitely too early to make any kind of confident statement either way - the positivity rate fell in Bolton today and cases there look like they could be about to top out.
I am expecting a 3 week delay, personally. 3 weeks seems to be the favoured review period. The risk is if it slips much later we'll be into the territory of "Autumn/winter is coming when respiratory illness tends to be more prevalent and the NHS is under more pressure, so we cannot lift any further restrictions until at least the spring".
 

Class 33

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As it stands there's absolutely no valid reasons whatsoever as to why the Stage 4 21st June final easing, to be delayed. This would be absolutely unacceptable. We've still got another 4 weeks until the review date of if the 21st June final easing goes ahead. It won't take long to get the social distancing review done by then. If they come up with some claptrap such as "Well we need to give it a few more weeks to see the data, to make a decision on if social distancing can be lifted or not yet." then this just won't cut it atall. And then what if another "variant of concern" then convientently/inconvienently then comes along, this could then delay it again! Social distancing and face mask wearing MUST go on 21st June at the latest. No bloody excuses!

That said, IF they do go and delay it, I don't think it will be just by a week or two. It's more likely to be at least 4 weeks. So the 21st June we are all really waiting for, could end up becoming 19th July, and then still no guarantee that will go ahead.
 

joncombe

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They knowingly and clearly exaggerate and yet expect us still to take everything they say at face value. Or worse, they play up the ^scary^ side and bury the good bit in the later paragraphs. That's just text-based media.
I fixed it for you.

As it stands there's absolutely no valid reasons whatsoever as to why the Stage 4 21st June final easing, to be delayed. This would be absolutely unacceptable. We've still got another 4 weeks until the review date of if the 21st June final easing goes ahead. It won't take long to get the social distancing review done by then. If they come up with some claptrap such as "Well we need to give it a few more weeks to see the data, to make a decision on if social distancing can be lifted or not yet." then this just won't cut it atall. And then what if another "variant of concern" then convientently/inconvienently then comes along, this could then delay it again! Social distancing and face mask wearing MUST go on 21st June at the latest. No bloody excuses!

That said, IF they do go and delay it, I don't think it will be just by a week or two. It's more likely to be at least 4 weeks. So the 21st June we are all really waiting for, could end up becoming 19th July, and then still no guarantee that will go ahead.
The way it seems to be being spun is that was meant to be a review by the end of May due to the need to issue guidance etc to businesses. Now they are suggesting this review will have to be delayed to analyse the latest data hence that will have to push back the date. I don't agree with it, but that seems to be the excuse being used to counter the argument that 21st June is 4 weeks away and there is plenty of time.
 

MikeWM

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However I do not think it is fair to delay the releasing of restrictions for everyone to protect people who are more vulnerable to Covid have been offered the vaccine and chosen not to have it. I completely support there choice (and hence why I don't support vaccine passports either). it should be peoples choice whether to have the vaccination or not but that people need to accept and understand the risk of choosing not to do so (and the risk, in my view, is they are more likely to get Covid or have a more serious case of it .... I am not suggesting a consequence is they should be excluded from society). Just as people can, do and should chose whether to have the Flu vaccination or not. I choose not to (and accept that there is therefore an increase risk I'll get flu, a risk I'm happy to accept). Likewise I have had the 1st dose of the Covid vaccination. My choice, I am not anti-vaccination but I'm certainly not forced or coerced vaccination either. But people choosing not to be vaccinated should also not impact on the level of restrictions everyone has to live under.

I totally agree. Altogether I think this 'don't want the vaccine but still want restrictions' putative group is mainly a straw-man from the government designed to:

- continue the 'divide and rule' approach we've seen all along, and/or
- nudge a few more people into being vaccinated, and/or
- distract from the narrative that was building against Johnson for 'allowing' the 'Indian variant' into the country

I am expecting a 3 week delay, personally. 3 weeks seems to be the favoured review period. The risk is if it slips much later we'll be into the territory of "Autumn/winter is coming when respiratory illness tends to be more prevalent and the NHS is under more pressure, so we cannot lift any further restrictions until at least the spring".

Some may think that is rather the point :-/
 

LAX54

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I think it is fairly clear, on here at least, that those of us who have chosen not to be vaccinated are some of the strongest and most consistent anti-restriction voices too. We're quite happy to take our chances (indeed, in my case I'd have been quiite happy to take my chances since all the restrictions were started 14 months ago, if I'd been allowed to).

Perhaps it is a function of where I'm looking, but I'd say that also applies to pretty much everyone I've seen who isn't choosing to be vaccinated.

I'm not even sure that the 'I don't want to be vaccinated but I want restrictions to continue' people aren't entirely mythical. If they do exist, I imagine they are *very* small in number. Certainly insignificant comparted to the rather incomprehensible 'I'm vaccinated but still want restrictions to continue' people, who seem to be seen everywhere.
1 ant-vax facebook post, can soon multiply into thousands, as people forward it and 'agree' to what was posted.
 

Class 33

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This morning there was this news....

BRITAIN is "very likely" to end lockdown on June 21 because the vaccine works against the Indian variant, a Cabinet minister has said.

Business secretary Kwasi Kwarteng insisted he's "confident" the big reopening will happen and said he's seen "no reason" why it shouldn't.

Read our coronavirus live blog for the latest updates


Brits have been urged to show caution with their newfound freedoms from todayCredit: PA
But he urged people to show "caution" as pubs reopen inside and hugging is allowed again from today to make sure the virus is kept in check.

His remarks represent a remarkable turnaround from the end of last week, when the PM warned the roadmap may have to be delayed.

Ministers and scientists were worried the emergence of the Indian variant could cause a surge in cases and 1,000 hospitalisations a day this summer.

But Mr Kwareng said: "It's always going to be a balance and that was the whole point of the roadmap.

"I know and I hear it every day, the immense pressure hospitality and retail has experienced.

"There's a huge amount of anxiety, jobs, people want to open up the economy again so they can get trading again and get back to normality again.

"I completely understand that. That's why we have the roadmap and that's why I fully expect that we'll be reopened on June 21."

Pressed on the June 21 date, he added: "I think it's very likely to happen. I think the vaccines are working against the Indian variant.

"There's nothing I've seen, and there's nothing the PM has seen up to now that suggests we're going to delay that 21 June date.

"There are risks in this and we can't guarantee everything will be fine. What we can do is look at the data and make judgments according to the data.

"So far so good. I'm confident we'll be able to get to June 21 and open up normally but I can't guarantee that now."

All very positive from goverment minister Mr Kwareng. And then just a few hours later we get this not to positive and very concerning news....

Review of social distancing in UK could be delayed

According to the government's roadmap out of lockdown, a review on social distancing, the one-metre plus rule and UK COVID certificates was due to have taken place by the end of May.

But with the Indian variant causing cases to go up, a Downing Street spokesman said: "We want to do it as soon as possible but... we need time to assess the latest data on this variant first identified in India so I'm not going to give a set time for doing that.

"We want to do everything possible to give people enough time to prepare."

Asked about the 21 June date being delayed completely, they said: "I don't want to get ahead of where we are at the moment and start getting into hypothetical situations.

"As the prime minister has set out, we've moved as a country into step three, albeit with a very targeted increase in surge vaccinations and testing in these areas where we're seeing rises and that's what we want to proceed with if at all possible but we don't want to rule anything out.

"And I think until we have more data and more evidence, we won't be making those judgments."

This chopping and changing of positive news and bad/concerning news is doing my head in! It's going to be an agonising month(or more) ahead for me. I really want these damaging hassly social distancing and face mask wearing nonsense restrictions to hurry up and be scrapped for good. It could be just 35 days away now, which isn't too much longer to put up with this. But then it may end up being longer than that!
 

Journeyman

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Be grateful you're not in Scotland. Whatever England does, we'll be a good few weeks behind.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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As it stands there's absolutely no valid reasons whatsoever as to why the Stage 4 21st June final easing, to be delayed. This would be absolutely unacceptable. We've still got another 4 weeks until the review date of if the 21st June final easing goes ahead. It won't take long to get the social distancing review done by then. If they come up with some claptrap such as "Well we need to give it a few more weeks to see the data, to make a decision on if social distancing can be lifted or not yet." then this just won't cut it atall. And then what if another "variant of concern" then convientently/inconvienently then comes along, this could then delay it again! Social distancing and face mask wearing MUST go on 21st June at the latest. No bloody excuses!

That said, IF they do go and delay it, I don't think it will be just by a week or two. It's more likely to be at least 4 weeks. So the 21st June we are all really waiting for, could end up becoming 19th July, and then still no guarantee that will go ahead.
No need for a delay based on current data with Englands hospitalisations now below 800 and albeit its slowing down but no sign of an upsurge in the NW. Indeed despite case increase in Bolton the data shows that over 60's are being protected very effectively so this is a positive that should underpin confidence.

My view remains local measures should be deployed to manage significant outbreaks I know people on here are against it but why allow household mixing in Bolton with the large number of cases especially if the Indian variant is more transmissible.
 

liam456

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In Devi Sridhar's latest article, she seems to want to have it both ways; not putting her name to the relaxation but simultaneously not wanting to take the blame for a harsher, longer lockdown.
She says we risk turning into another Chile or Seychelles if the public don't take matters into their own hands.


On another note, why is the UK's border so leaky? While I don't suggest we make passports useless a-la Australia, why would we have put ourselves into this situation if we could have avoided it earlier on?
 

Yew

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On another note, why is the UK's border so leaky? While I don't suggest we make passports useless a-la Australia, why would we have put ourselves into this situation if we could have avoided it earlier on?
Because most of the evidence suggests that border controls do exactly nothing apart from crush morale?
In Devi Sridhar's latest article, she seems to want to have it both ways; not putting her name to the relaxation but simultaneously not wanting to take the blame for a harsher, longer lockdown.
She says we risk turning into another Chile or Seychelles if the public don't take matters into their own hands.
Sic semper tyrannis?
 

philosopher

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In Devi Sridhar's latest article, she seems to want to have it both ways; not putting her name to the relaxation but simultaneously not wanting to take the blame for a harsher, longer lockdown.
She says we risk turning into another Chile or Seychelles if the public don't take matters into their own hands.


On another note, why is the UK's border so leaky? While I don't suggest we make passports useless a-la Australia, why would we have put ourselves into this situation if we could have avoided it earlier on?
One thing is that the UK seems to have been unlucky with this variant, in that it seems to have been the first country outside the Indian subcontinent where it has spread significantly.

The question is that because of leaky borders, or is it because other countries do actually have loads of the Indian variant spreading but don’t know about it or are not so concerned by it.

The other thing is that Chile and the Seychelles are using Chinese vaccines that are not that great at stopping infections, however they do from what understand still stop severe illness.
 

yorksrob

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The Guardian seems to be little more than a lockdown propaganda rag at the moment.
 

Yew

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The question is that because of leaky borders, or is it because other countries do actually have loads of the Indian variant spreading but don’t know about it or are not so concerned by it.
If forced hotel quarantine doesn't do it, surely we have to admit that conventional pandemic protocols that suggested that border measures were completely pointless may have been correct.

The Guardian seems to be little more than a lockdown propaganda rag at the moment.
It is, after all, a highly effective miracle cure with no negative side effects whatsoever.
 

joncombe

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If forced hotel quarantine doesn't do it, surely we have to admit that conventional pandemic protocols that suggested that border measures were completely pointless may have been correct.


It is, after all, a highly effective miracle cure with no negative side effects whatsoever.
Well the Kent variant originated, funnily enough, in Kent. I didn't see suggestions to put a border around Kent. And that's my point really. A border is mostly an arbitrary line on a map. The virus isn't going to not travel over it. I appreciate the UK being mostly an island has more of a physical border than most but there is still the border with Eire. In any case, we are a net importer of food. We can't completely close the border and stop imports unless we want some of the population to starve. So if you let some people in there is still a risk.

So unless the Uk seals ourselves off entirely (not really possible with the border with Ireland) it's not going to be stopped entirely. The UK also only controls laws in the UK. It is impossible for the UK Government to know, once someone is outside the UK exactly which countries they have been in to. Sure when they arrive in the UK the Government knows where they travelled in from (as passport details etc must be provided) but you can't force other countries to collect details of where someone has been especially when most of the EU is border-free and not required to show a passport, for example. Yes there might be clues, like a visa in a passport but it's never going to be 100%.

I think that's part of the problem with forced quarantine. Many obviously won't want to do it, so will take measures to travel back via another country to conceal where they have been and avoid the quarantine (especially given it's cost). Some simply won't be able to afford it and again might decide the slightly higher cost of taking 2 flights via another country and the risk of getting caught to be worth spending £1700 (I think it is?) on the hotel quarantine.

I do wonder if it's actually creating more problems than it's solving. Would people have been more likely to isolate at home if given the option given it won't cost them £1700. Hard to police yes, but so is the red/amber/green list stuff because the UK can't effectively police what countries people have been to in the last 14 days.
 

Darandio

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If forced hotel quarantine doesn't do it, surely we have to admit that conventional pandemic protocols that suggested that border measures were completely pointless may have been correct.

What forced hotel quarantine? Thousands piled back into the country for the few days they were allowed after India was added to the red list.

We have a variant that doesn't pose any real greater danger to those vaccinated. Apparently the majority of those hospitalised in the North-West recently have refused to be vaccinated, we already knew the take up in certain communities was much less than the figure overall. Yet because of this some scientists are expecting the rest of us to stay on hold for even longer. Refused the vaccine and subsequently got ill? Unfortunate but tough.
 
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