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Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

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35B

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That seems perhaps a bit unlikely if the driver had only shortly before been presumably communicating with his control room and the signalman to change direction and shunt the train on to the other line in the same sort of area?
But the reversal at Carmont would have been under the direct control of the signaller, in the box at the crossover. I don't think we can make any assumptions about the role of GSMR based on the reversal.
 

Irascible

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Not really sure how to express what I'm feeling, other than sadness - my thoughts are with everyone involved & everyone in the industry at least.

I'm sure if there was a failing in GSM-R automation ( would the rear power car be able to make a panic call by itself? ) then the RAIB will have suitable recommendations.
 

Jozhua

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/embed/p08ng0v8/53751678
Looking at the footage, I'll be surprised if the deaths remain lower than three. This is a big one. Doesn't look like the train held up too well in the crash.

Still, trains remain a safe way of travel, despite infrequent tragic incidents like this. Hopefully this does not alter perception too badly in the public eye, as I'm sure lives are saved by the railways giving people the option to not drive on motorways or into the middle of busy cities.
 

43066

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Not really sure how to express what I'm feeling, other than sadness - my thoughts are with everyone involved & everyone in the industry at least.

I'm sure if there was a failing in GSM-R automation ( would the rear power car be able to make a panic call by itself? ) then the RAIB will have suitable recommendations.

Nope. Not unless someone powered it up manually.
 

Scrotnig

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Still, trains remain a safe way of travel, despite infrequent tragic incidents like this. Hopefully this does not alter perception too badly in the public eye, as I'm sure lives are saved by the railways giving people the option to not drive on motorways or into the middle of busy cities.
Indeed that’s an important point, things like this wouldn’t put me off using railways. They are extremely safe.
 

Aberdeen1903

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/embed/p08ng0v8/53751678
Looking at the footage, I'll be surprised if the deaths remain lower than three. This is a big one. Doesn't look like the train held up too well in the crash.

Still, trains remain a safe way of travel, despite infrequent tragic incidents like this. Hopefully this does not alter perception too badly in the public eye, as I'm sure lives are saved by the railways giving people the option to not drive on motorways or into the middle of busy cities.


Would it likely be the case that the staff were upright and passengers sitting down at the time of the incident?

Such a horrendous situation. Thoughts with all you guys this evening.
 

the sniper

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What was the source of the early leaked images from the scene? NR log?
 

thenorthern

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Given this is the first time a passenger on a train has died in a rail accident for 13 years I think there will be major changes to to the way railways are run to stop this happening again.
 

swt_passenger

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/embed/p08ng0v8/53751678
Looking at the footage, I'll be surprised if the deaths remain lower than three. This is a big one. Doesn't look like the train held up too well in the crash.

Still, trains remain a safe way of travel, despite infrequent tragic incidents like this. Hopefully this does not alter perception too badly in the public eye, as I'm sure lives are saved by the railways giving people the option to not drive on motorways or into the middle of busy cities.
The BTP announcement’s wording a couple of hours ago said they believed everyone has been accounted for, and the six taken to hospital were not seriously injured..
 

43066

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Given this is the first time a passenger on a train has died in a rail accident for 13 years I think there will be major changes to to the way railways are run to stop this happening again.

I disagree.

Awful news today, but the fact this is the first fatal accident for well over a decade demonstrates how incredibly safe this industry is.
 

DB

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Given this is the first time a passenger on a train has died in a rail accident for 13 years I think there will be major changes to to the way railways are run to stop this happening again.

Of course something like this is tragic, but how on earth can any number of major changes guard against a sudden landslip (if that proves to be the cause)?
 

68000

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The BBC 1746 update is still fairly categoric that the train was heading south when it derailed. I take it that’s considered wrong?

Yes, the train was heading north on the correct line after earlier travelling north wrong road and then traversing over the points to go right road at Carmont SB. The train had earlier travelled south through the area with no apparent issues - the timeline is a bit sketchy for the heading north move
 

Jozhua

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Indeed that’s an important point, things like this wouldn’t put me off using railways. They are extremely safe.
Yeah, bit like air travel, has a bad wrap despite being statistically safer than road transport.
Would it likely be the case that the staff were upright and passengers sitting down at the time of the incident?

Such a horrendous situation. Thoughts with all you guys this evening.
It is very possible. Hopefully those who were landed in a way as to reduce injury.
The BTP announcement’s wording a couple of hours ago said they believed everyone has been accounted for, and the six taken to hospital were not seriously injured..
That's good. Maybe the saving grace is that not many people are on the train due to the situation with Coronavirus.
 

Tom B

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The line between ghoulish details and pertinent ones is blurred; as is the line between helpful and unhelpful speculation.

In the fullness of time, the facts will undoubtedly become clear in the report; and I am sure that, if any particular matter comes to the immediate attention of the various bodies, changes to procedures will occur sooner than that.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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I think this accident really does underline how vulnerable some aspects of our rail network are to severe weather, particularly earthworks. Scotland seems to get really badly hit by severe storms at the moment, more so than England it seems. I could understand the west coast, but the east coast as well?
 

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Yeah, bit like air travel, has a bad wrap despite being statistically safer than road transport.

Air travel is an odd one. You get extremes - those who think every time they get on a plane it's going to crash, and those who understand it is very safe. Almost nobody in the middle.
 

Jozhua

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Of course something like this is tragic, but how on earth can any number of major changes guard against a sudden landslip (if that proves to be the cause)?
Idk, monitoring and securing ground around the tracks. I don't know what the result of the investigation will be, but I wouldn't be surprised if they conclude a more modern train would have held up better.

The railways are going to have to get better braced at dealing with sudden, unexpected or extreme weather, as this challenge will only increase in coming years, unfortunately.

[USER=27187]Bletchleyite[/USER] said:
Air travel is an odd one. You get extremes - those who think every time they get on a plane it's going to crash, and those who understand it is very safe. Almost nobody in the middle.
Very true.
 

ainsworth74

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Hello again everyone. A few more notes from me.

This is now quite a lengthy thread so anyone new is well advised to have a scan through (or use the search function by selecting "This Thread" rather than "Everywhere") before posting to try and make sure you're not duplicating anything. That being said things will obviously slip through so lets try and remain civil with each other please. There's no need to pull up people for making a mistake and, as always, the report function is available to bring things to our attention.

More generally please do try and keep things civil. This has been a difficult and emotional day for the railway and I would like to think that in this time we might try and be surportive rather than jumping down each others throats.

Many thanks,
ainsworth74
 

43096

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Hopefully this OTMR survived the fire in the front power car. Just looked them up on Wikipedia..
From memory, the recording part of the OTMR is in the power car luggage van on Angel Trains power cars (as these two are), so good chance it will have survived. In any case a download will be done on the rear power car which will confirm parameters such as speed, brake position etc.
 

61653 HTAFC

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/embed/p08ng0v8/53751678
Looking at the footage, I'll be surprised if the deaths remain lower than three. This is a big one. Doesn't look like the train held up too well in the crash.

Still, trains remain a safe way of travel, despite infrequent tragic incidents like this. Hopefully this does not alter perception too badly in the public eye, as I'm sure lives are saved by the railways giving people the option to not drive on motorways or into the middle of busy cities.
Obviously any accident is one too many, but nature has a way of undoing anything humans do to make things as safe as possible. One silver lining (if that's the right term) is that there weren't many people on board, which at least puts an upper limit on the number of lives affected by this tragedy. Again that's little consolation to those who have been affected. My deepest condolences to those who've lost people in this horrific way.
 

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A very sad day indeed. My thoughts and condolences go out to everyone affected by this awful tragedy.
 

Journeyman

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Awful news today, but the fact this is the first fatal accident for well over a decade demonstrates how incredibly safe this industry is.

Indeed. By a very substantial margin, that's the longest period without a fatal accident in the industry's 200-year history.
 

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Air travel is an odd one. You get extremes - those who think every time they get on a plane it's going to crash, and those who understand it is very safe. Almost nobody in the middle.

It has a rather extreme failure mode, it just takes an awful lot to reach it. I've been in several car accidents ( I suspect I'm a bit statistically unlucky there ), never a rail or an air accident, and I'll carry on using all of them.

Any way of mitigating risk from subsidence surely has to come mostly in the management of the infrastructure rather than the vehicles. I suspect there's issues on the roads in the area too?
 

DB

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Idk, monitoring and securing ground around the tracks. I don't know what the result of the investigation will be, but I wouldn't be surprised if they conclude a more modern train would have held up better.

If there was any indication of dangerous ground, they would have been monitoring it - it's not going to be possible ot monitor every inch of railway line in minute detail.

As regards the train, Mk3s generally stand up pretty well but if something as heavy as a train decelerates that fast the energy has to go somewhere. From the photos, three of them seem to have largely retained their structural integrity, and one has been crushed by two others ending up on top of it. It seems likely that the leading power car's fuel tank was punctured, given the fires in it and the leading coach.
 

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Of course something like this is tragic, but how on earth can any number of major changes guard against a sudden landslip (if that proves to be the cause)?
They can't, of course. The only changes could be site-specific strengthening or drastically-reduced network-wide speed limits. The latter will be impractical and will not have a business case based on the present rate of fatalities from this cause (if assumptions are correct, of course).
 

ewsclass

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When a GSM-R radio disconnects for more than a 'grace period' is the signaller alerted that a train has disappeared from their patch?
 

Deepgreen

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Air travel is an odd one. You get extremes - those who think every time they get on a plane it's going to crash, and those who understand it is very safe. Almost nobody in the middle.
I disagree - I think the vast majority of people who fly don't really give the matter much thought one way or the other.
 

ainsworth74

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I'm going to have to ask that the discussion about the Rule Book is taken to a new thread please.
 
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