Surfers call on GWR to review board-on-trains ban

[Doctor Fegg]

Why don't those insisting on the last mile by bike just purchase a Brompton or similar folding cycle? Most issues would then be resolved overnight.

It's not just about the last mile by bike. Cycling holidays, and cycling for leisure in general, are big business and bring in a lot to local economies (the cafes both here and in the next village down the road both do very well from cyclists).

You are not going to have an enjoyable time on the hills of Cornwall and Devon, the Cotswolds, or South Wales on a Brompton. Believe me.

(To be fair I do have a folder you can tour on - a Bike Friday - and it's a beauty, but bikes like that are very rare in the UK, and for train purposes, they don't fold as small as a Brommie would.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why don't those insisting on the last mile by bike just purchase a Brompton or similar folding cycle? Most issues would then be resolved overnight.

There are really, outside of London commuters, two types of people who take bikes on trains.

One type is leisure cyclists, who clearly aren't going to be riding a Brompton on a long ride. They tend to have an expensive road bike well fitted to them, so they won't want to be hiring either.

The other type is people of limited means, who can afford £20 for a used mountain bike to get from the station to work but definitely wouldn't be blowing £600+ on a Brompton, however good they are.

 

[telstarbox]

They also look undignified IMO.

 

[PeterC]

In the motorrail thread the general opinion was that cars should be hired at the destination. By the same token why should passenger space be given over to bikes?

 

[Gostav]

A question, should luggage van come back to the modern multiple units train?

 

[LOL The Irony]

A question, should luggage van come back to the modern multiple units train?

On a 5 car IET, where are you putting that? Although I agree with the sentiment, only problem is justifying it on the modern railway, especially as no one owns their own train builder anymore.

 

[northernbelle]

A very interesting thread and a lot of interesting points being made.

The truth is, for the 'average Joe', the 80x represents a step up in luggage capacity, with much better capacity at seats both in the racks above and at floor level. I travel with a rucksack and used to stow it above my head on HSTs to provide sufficient arm and leg room, but find on the IETs it fits neatly beside me sort of half underneath the seat.

Where the challenge comes in is around 'bulk' luggage. There's no doubt the cycle spaces are more awkward and that the end of coach luggage 'stacks' are smaller than on HSTs. A power car van or TGS type solution just isn't favourable these days - passengers being very weary of leaving their items even half a coach length away, let alone potentially several coaches away. Luggage stacked against doorways on the HSTs was an endless problem, even with luggage cage operations in place between Paddington and Plymouth or Truro - it could be quite a challenge to persuade passengers to part with their belongings.

A key difference between the luggage of 1976 and that of 2020 is the value of it, which is why rolling stock manufacturers try to put as much luggage space in adjacent to seats as they can. Folk are usually travelling with phones, tablets, laptops - other expensive items they couldn't possibly do without for a few days - which is why most modern designs centre on maximum overhead rack capacity.

Let's be frank; surfboards represent a tiny, tiny proportion of even the leisure market likely to use GWR, so it's questionable if an entire train fleet should be modified to take into account this specific. Where does this tailoring end? Should trains be designed so I can take my motorbike aboard as that's a popular summer activity in the West Country? The HST "luggage" space in the TGS and Power Car vans were actually designed around the Red Star Parcels market, not with excess luggage in mind. Let me tell you having worked many HSTs over the years, piling the TGS full of luggage really isn't a good solution - try dispatching, using the guard's office or accessing the emergency equipment when there's suitcase piled to the rafters.

I believe LNER, with work shared with fellow IEP operator GWR, is doing the right thing in regards to adding the extra luggage stacks in place of the window-less seats. It'll be interesting to see if GWR now follows suit. That said, there's nothing stopping any operator using the solution of putting a cover over those seats and using it for luggage storage in any case.

All that said, there's a clear swing away from the commuter market to the leisure market, so it'll be interesting to see how this affects the interior configuration of all rolling stock in the future.

 

[Meerkat]

One type is leisure cyclists, who clearly aren't going to be riding a Brompton on a long ride. They tend to have an expensive road bike well fitted to them, so they won't want to be hiring either.

The other type is people of limited means, who can afford £20 for a used mountain bike to get from the station to work but definitely wouldn't be blowing £600+ on a Brompton, however good they are.

Can’t say I have ever seen an expensive road bike on a train - they are far too fragile to trust to racks, and far too expensive to be left alone. They will be on top of a similarly ego based SUV.
For the second market we need decent bike parking so that people have a bike at both ends. You can’t even safely leave a tatty bike at most stations overnight.

 

[philthetube]

Or have 1 of the racks have removable shelves that can be replaced with surfboard/bike racks at the will of the guard.

A suggestion asking for fights between passengers.

Look at the disputes between buggy pushers and wheelchair uses on buses and multiply by 10

when someone turns up with a surfboard and there is luggage in the rack all one can say is Poor guard

 

[JohnMcL7]

Can’t say I have ever seen an expensive road bike on a train - they are far too fragile to trust to racks, and far too expensive to be left alone. They will be on top of a similarly ego based SUV.
For the second market we need decent bike parking so that people have a bike at both ends. You can’t even safely leave a tatty bike at most stations overnight.

I would say my bike is moderately expensive and it goes on the train:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-kbBdphj/0/X4/i-kbBdphj-X4.jpg

Full carbon but certainly not a fragile bike and sits fine on the rack, I can't stand SUVs and don't have one myself nor would I say I have an ego but like to have a plush ride for long journeys.

I can certainly understand people's frustrations with carrying anything bigger on the train and there's times I've given up trying to get a book biked on because it seems increasingly difficult to do these days.

 

[Inthewest]

Research has shown most people don't want a "buffet" but would rather an at seat service.

I do which people would let the term "buffet" reside where it belongs... in the past.

 

[py_megapixel]

In the motorrail thread the general opinion was that cars should be hired at the destination. By the same token why should passenger space be given over to bikes?

Carrying bikes is significantly more space-efficient than cars...

 

[43096]

Research has shown most people don't want a "buffet" but would rather an at seat service.

I do which people would let the term "buffet" reside where it belongs... in the past.

Would you like to provide a source for this research? It would be good to know what questions were actually asked - too often any such surveys use leading questions.

 

[dk1]

A question, should luggage van come back to the modern multiple units train?

Unless the railways regained the full conveyance of the Royal Mail then no it won't ever happen. Trains where bound by law to have them then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the motorrail thread the general opinion was that cars should be hired at the destination. By the same token why should passenger space be given over to bikes?

Because bikes are smaller, lighter and tend to need to be carefully fitted to the owner.

 

[WesternLancer]

Research has shown most people don't want a "buffet" but would rather an at seat service.

I do which people would let the term "buffet" reside where it belongs... in the past.

Has the same research asked them if they like luke warm tea or coffee, or is it the sort of 'research' that posts a leading question to obtain the desired answer?

eg
"do you think it would be better if we provided an at seat service so you don't have to get up when you want a choice of refreshments?" type of question

as opposed to
"we provide a really large range of items in our on board shop and buffet counter, including hot food and drinks, supported by an at seat trolley of selected items. Should we provide both so you have the choice?"

pointless surveys simply designs to justify the decision already taken for wider economic reasons.

Better to just be honest about it.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Can’t say I have ever seen an expensive road bike on a train

I've seen loads around here (the Cotswolds). I have two £1000ish bikes which I'd regularly take by train, or at least did before GWR made it such a faff with their lousy racks and advance booking requirement. Sure, they're neither of them the sort of wondermachine that Primoz Roglic is riding up an Alp right now, but they're vastly preferable to pretty much any hire bike.

Has the same research asked them if they like luke warm tea or coffee, or is it the sort of 'research' that posts a leading question to obtain the desired answer?

I don't mind the lukewarm coffee from the trolley. It's the lukewarm Coke that I object to...

 

[irish_rail]

????

2 x modded 5 car sets (i.e. 10 cars) would still probably have more seats left than a modded 9 car ser...

Quite simple, to modify a 9 car set with increased luggage space you remove say 8 seats. To modify a 5 car set you also have to remove 8 seats , but as that train is running as a pair of 5s, you are losing 16 seats per service and not 8 .

 

[WesternLancer]

This whole thing is depressing, not because I think surf boards are important - but because it illustrates precisely why the railway is staring into the abyss.

Even the most moderately enterprising organisation, faced with the circs of this summer and ongoing period, might have been expected to do the following surely:
suspend the restriction and issue a statement like

"Due to covid-19 our trains are more lightly used this year, and seat reservations to ensure social distancing means you are very likely to have empty seats about you. If you'd like to enjoy a journey on our trains feel free to bring luggage with you as there is plenty of room on board as we are holding a proportion of seats empty. If you have a surf board and want to enjoy the south west, it almost gauranteed that you will have an empty seat next to you where you can stand it up, out of other passengers ways"

"welcome to GWR - we want your business, fare and custom as we help people enjoy leisure time after weeks of lock down"

For goodness sake, you would think they would want any ones money for anything given the low loadings - but no - easier to take the taxpayers money to run services and not bother.

Well, it won't be too long before the chancellor says 'there's no more money for you'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've seen loads around here (the Cotswolds). I have two £1000ish bikes which I'd regularly take by train, or at least did before GWR made it such a faff with their lousy racks and advance booking requirement. Sure, they're neither of them the sort of wondermachine that Primoz Roglic is riding up an Alp right now, but they're vastly preferable to pretty much any hire bike.

I prefer advance booking for bikes provided it's available up to very close to departure (5 mins before I think) as it is on Avanti. You can know you've got a space, no faff, no arguing, no bikes left blocking the doors. Could do with an "app for that".

I don't mind the lukewarm coffee from the trolley. It's the lukewarm Coke that I object to...

It amazes me that trolley operators haven't worked out the way to do decent trolley coffee is simply to prepare quality filter coffee while "plugged in" and then unplug it and go and serve. DB learnt that years ago. A secondary "almost as good" option is one of the instants with microgrind, there are a few of those.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I prefer advance booking for bikes provided it's available up to very close to departure (5 mins before I think) as it is on Avanti. You can know you've got a space, no faff, no arguing, no bikes left blocking the doors. Could do with an "app for that".

We (as in our local town council) were told that GWR were developing an app to do exactly that, and that it had reached beta-testing stage. This was a couple of years ago. It's gone very quiet since.

 

[WesternLancer]

Quite simple, to modify a 9 car set with increased luggage space you remove say 8 seats. To modify a 5 car set you also have to remove 8 seats , but as that train is running as a pair of 5s, you are losing 16 seats per service and not 8 .

Yes, but now it's time to forget about the obsession with seats crammed in to the max. Numbers have plummeted anyway - and for quite some time people are not going to voluntarily use modes of transport where they are crammed in unless they are desperate (or been vaccinated).

Take seats out of the GWR 800s and give them back to Hiatchi to save a few £ on the EMR 800 build !!

Most of the people I know have not been on a train since March. When I tell them I have been on one by choice they look at me as if I'm a bit foolish in my judgement (and ought really to have gone into quarantine, surely). They've all been places. Just in their cars.

 

[irish_rail]

Yes, but now it's time to forget about the obsession with seats crammed in to the max. Numbers have plummeted anyway - and for quite some time people are not going to voluntarily use modes of transport where they are crammed in unless they are desperate (or been vaccinated).

Take seats out of the GWR 800s and give them back to Hiatchi to save a few £ on the EMR 800 build !!

Most of the people I know have not been on a train since March. When I tell them I have been on one by choice they look at me as if I'm a bit foolish in my judgement (and ought really to have gone into quarantine, surely). They've all been places. Just in their cars.

Whilst I take your point, this summer plenty of 5 car 802s left plymouth for cornwall full and standing and so removing seats is still problematic in places. Whilst I agree that the 9 car 800s which are essentially used in the peaks could reasonably lose 8 seats, removing 8 seats on a 5 car 802 would prove more problematic , especially in the summer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst I take your point, this summer plenty of 5 car 802s left plymouth for cornwall full and standing

That's your problem there. In summer, full length trains need to run to Cornish destinations.

 

[WesternLancer]

Whilst I take your point, this summer plenty of 5 car 802s left plymouth for cornwall full and standing and so removing seats is still problematic in places. Whilst I agree that the 9 car 800s which are essentially used in the peaks could reasonably lose 8 seats, removing 8 seats on a 5 car 802 would prove more problematic , especially in the summer.

Thanks - broadly speaking would those 5 cars have always been that sort of length - or not so long ago longer HSTs? If so the solution is really that 5 cars were inadequate for the services concerned of course.
Appreciate your post and the point however.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks - broadly speaking would those 5 cars have always been that sort of length - or not so long ago longer HSTs? If so the solution is really that 5 cars were inadequate for the services concerned of course.
Appreciate your post and the point however.

5 car trains are inadequate for mainline InterCity services (I'd define that as any service that was formerly operated as InterCity in BR days, so XC included). End of. The problem there is that the train is too short.

GWR should never have had any 5-cars. They all need to be extended to 9s, and if that leaves GWR with spares deploy them elsewhere.

 

[irish_rail]

Thanks - broadly speaking would those 5 cars have always been that sort of length - or not so long ago longer HSTs? If so the solution is really that 5 cars were inadequate for the services concerned of course.
Appreciate your post and the point however.

Correct. Everyone down here knows the 5 car sets are inadequate for the penzance route, but they were ordered and someone has to be stuck with them, hence their use as far from the Thames valley commuter stuff as possible. We are where we are and sadly thanks to Covid I think any hope of paying to extend them to 9s, however important, will not now happen.

 

[43096]

Take seats out of the GWR 800s and give them back to Hiatchi to save a few £ on the EMR 800 build !!

Better than that, just bin them. They aren’t fit for purpose.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

GWR should never have had any 5-cars. They all need to be extended to 9s, and if that leaves GWR with spares deploy them elsewhere.

The 5-car units are good Adelante replacements - the right size for off-peak services on the North and South Cotswold lines, and can be doubled up in the peaks. (But they don't need kitchens for that...)

 

[WesternLancer]

The 5-car units are good Adelante replacements - the right size for off-peak services on the North and South Cotswold lines, and can be doubled up in the peaks. (But they don't need kitchens for that...)

Logic would suggest some judicious lengthening of Castle HST sets as a relatively cost effective solution to the route, you could even store the coaches in winter. Even a coach turned into one long luggage van in the sets...no end of room for bikes / boards etc etc.

Probably cheaper than the Scotrail 153 conversion project cost.

I'm not under the illusion this will happen tho.