Swansea Metro ?

[ChiefPlanner]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-41323109

Train journey times between Swansea and Cardiff could fall to 30 minutes if the main line was rerouted, a transport expert has said.
Prof Mark Barry, who proposed the South Wales Metro plan, said a £1bn rail-based metro system around Swansea could transform the city's connectivity and help it support more jobs.
He has suggested routing the main line from Port Talbot straight to Swansea.
A plan to electrify the rail line to Swansea was scrapped in July.
Although his plan would mean taking the main line away from Neath, he said the payoff would be in a metro system with increased services along the current main line from Neath into the city, with new stations serving the SA1 development, the new student campus at Fabian Way and the Liberty Stadium, among others

Interesting concept to by-pass Neath and to create a short cut to Swansea , reduce journey times to Cardiff , and build a suburban service

 

[PaulHarding150]

I've often thought you could do something similar between Cardiff and Bridgend by following the A48, possibly creating a station in Cowbridge for non HST services and using the current mainline (through Pencoed etc) as a real local stopper service with new stations at Brackla, St Fagans and a P&R at M4 J34 etc)

 

[WelshBluebird]

Surely any of this is just pie in the sky at the moment considering we can't even get the existing Cardiff - Swansea route electrified as part of the GWML works?

 

[PaulHarding150]

Surely any of this is just pie in the sky at the moment considering we can't even get the existing Cardiff - Swansea route electrified as part of the GWML works?

Oh completely, ditto the final version of the Welsh Government's much fabled 'Metro'

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh completely, ditto the final version of the Welsh Government's much fabled 'Metro'

While I see the cynicism for whether they can deliver, the concept is solid - rural and semi-rural S-Bahn services operate in Switzerland on this kind of model (lower frequencies than an urban S-Bahn, typically based on an hourly or half-hourly pattern, but with the same consistency of route and service). The concept would fit Wales very well.

You could well end up with the odd "RB" service left outside the Takt (like the Conwy Valley) but most of it would fit.

 

[PaulHarding150]

While I see the cynicism for whether they can deliver, the concept is solid - rural and semi-rural S-Bahn services operate in Switzerland on this kind of model (lower frequencies than an urban S-Bahn, typically based on an hourly or half-hourly pattern, but with the same consistency of route and service). The concept would fit Wales very well.

You could well end up with the odd "RB" service left outside the Takt (like the Conwy Valley) but most of it would fit.

My main criticism of the Metro is that it was announced as government policy in December 2012 and we're now in 2017 and virtually bugger all has hapend.

 

[rftorf]

My main criticism of the Metro is that it was announced as government policy in December 2012 and we're now in 2017 and virtually bugger all has hapend.

Not quite true, new signs have gone up at LLandaff station!

 

[PaulHarding150]

Not quite true, new signs have gone up at LLandaff station!

I said virtually bugger all has happened ;-p

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Surely any of this is just pie in the sky at the moment considering we can't even get the existing Cardiff - Swansea route electrified as part of the GWML works?

Yes - but it cheers a Wednesday up before "work" - forget HS4 to Wales - this was mentioned in a blue sky seminar at Cardiff around 2011 - I am 100% sure the findings of this report and the old one , will be totally ignored.

 

[Envoy]

This is yet another ‘scheme’ from Mark Barry = the same guy who came up with the South East Wales Metro - and, as others have said, virtually bugger all has happened. (No operator announced, no new trains ordered and no new stations built or any electrification). This is Wales - the land of all talk and no action!

Anyway, as anyone will realise, to get into Swansea directly from there east would require knocking down many of the old terraced houses in the Port Tennant area. See map:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6391631,-3.8942627,11841m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

Surely, one way to serve Swansea and not go into High Street Station - so as to save time for those heading to/from west Wales, would be to build a new station on the site of the Landore diesel depot? From such a station, trains or trams could provide a link to the High Street station using the present tracks. If trams, perhaps these could continue through the soon to be re-built city centre and then pass around the Bay to Oystermouth or even Mumbles.

My Landore scheme would be relatively cheap as it would require very little new infrastructure. (It is near to where it says ‘Liberty Stadium’ on the map link).

Mention has been made of building a new direct line from Cardiff to Bridgend. This is virtually impossible due to hills.

 

[PHILIPE]

This is yet another ‘scheme’ from Mark Barry = the same guy who came up with the South East Wales Metro - and, as others have said, virtually bugger all has happened. (No operator announced, no new trains ordered and no new stations built or any electrification). This is Wales - the land of all talk and no action!

Anyway, as anyone will realise, to get into Swansea directly from there east would require knocking down many of the old terraced houses in the Port Tennant area. See map:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6391631,-3.8942627,11841m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

Surely, one way to serve Swansea and not go into High Street Station - so as to save time for those heading to/from west Wales, would be to build a new station on the site of the Landore diesel depot? From such a station, trains or trams could provide a link to the High Street station using the present tracks. If trams, perhaps these could continue through the soon to be re-built city centre and then pass around the Bay to Oystermouth or even Mumbles.

My Landore scheme would be relatively cheap as it would require very little new infrastructure. (It is near to where it says ‘Liberty Stadium’ on the map link).

Mention has been made of building a new direct line from Cardiff to Bridgend. This is virtually impossible due to hills.

There's two routes aleady

 

[leightonbd]

Surely, one way to serve Swansea and not go into High Street Station - so as to save time for those heading to/from west Wales, would be to build a new station on the site of the Landore diesel depot? From such a station, trains or trams could provide a link to the High Street station using the present tracks. If trams, perhaps these could continue through the soon to be re-built city centre and then pass around the Bay to Oystermouth or even Mumbles.

My Landore scheme would be relatively cheap as it would require very little new infrastructure. (It is near to where it says ‘Liberty Stadium’ on the map)

I'd argue that you are causing more harm/ inconvenience to a relatively large number of Swansea pax than you are creating benefit to a smaller number of West Wales travelers. Do you have traffic figures? Landore is a poor location for a Swansea station.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes - but it cheers a Wednesday up before "work" - forget HS4 to Wales - this was mentioned in a blue sky seminar at Cardiff around 2011 - I am 100% sure the findings of this report and the old one , will be totally ignored.

As Ive said for a long time Wales has enough resource to get a modern decent integrated world class public transport system albeit over time and in stages.

What it doesn't have is the resource to build the perfect road system that some pine for, we build a few bypasses here and there, upgrade some junction to whatever "modern standards" is, dual the odd stretch of road, build a "link road" but the overall effect on transport/ the economy is minimal as these schemes are localized and so small against the size of the problem/sector that they barley cause a ripple. Even the so called M4 relief road will just induce new problems negating whatever the perceived benefits of building it are. In the meantime the budget is blown and traffic levels/congestion/lost timed just gets worse and public transport stutters along in its underfunded state not able to make a full contribution.

The Welsh Government loves playing to the gallery pretending its making a big difference and handing out road schemes based on false promises of relieve from congestion/ economic growth. It doesn't do anything on a strategic level rather it funds whatever shouts loudest and looks likes its popular.

The M4 as an east to west main artery is forever constrained by Wales's topography with a different North to South valley feeding into it every couple of miles needing a junction and clogging it with local traffic doing short hops. 28 junctions on the Welsh side (79 miles) with just 21 on the English side spread out over (110 miles).

Both Metro concepts are absolutely sound and the right thing to do in principle but the Welsh Government is paralyzed by fear of not funding roads and misconceptions as it doesn't understand that road building is a busted flush as a generator or economic growth in a country already saturated with road traffic and vehicles.

 

[DelW]

I'm reliably informed that construction of the Swansea Metro will begin as soon as rebuilding of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line is finished.

Slightly more seriously, there is potential for a route from the east using the Swansea District line to cross the River Neath, then turning left following the old line through Jersey Marine and the eastern docks, then turning north and crossing the River Tawe to a new through station immediately east of the existing one. Trains from the east could then continue to Landore, either to carry on toward Llanelli or to circle back via Neath. The east half of this route already exists although it would need considerable rebuilding. The west half would need a new alignment, new bridges, and some demolition of existing buildings.

I do realise it's unlikely ever to happen, though.

 

[daikilo]

At present it takes around 30 minutes Cardiff-Port Talbot so how the prof thinks it possible to spend 0-2 minutes for the remainder to Swansea mystifies me.

That said, to minimise time would require a new link at Baglan and as direct as possible through Jersey Marine on through the docks to cross the Tawe and approach the current station from the south. It would certainly create job opportunities to replace all the housing and office space that would need to be demolished! It would however make commuting to Cardiff more attractive which I assume was not his aim.

If however what is targeted is a metro then I would suggest trams with some street running and possibly tunneling under the centre and forget about a new main line.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

... Landore is a poor location for a Swansea station.

True, but then so is High Street!

 

[PHILIPE]

True, but then so is High Street!

High St was suitable at one time but the town and later city centre moved, whereas many of the shops were in the High St developments like the Quadrant Centre came about and the commercial area moved further away from the station leaving the High St run down and boarded up shops.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

High St was suitable at one time but the town and later city centre moved, whereas many of the shops were in the High St developments like the Quadrant Centre came about and the commercial area moved further away from the station leaving the High St run down and boarded up shops.

That sums it up - the "welcome to Swansea" of the insalubrious High St -bar the station and the Hotel opposite , has to be about one of the worst in the UK -
including Morecombe .....area is seriously down , if not out.....

Swansea in any case lacks the dynamism of Cardiff , which is quite incredible as to how it has come on , whilst maintaining much of the 19thC style.....

 

[gg1]

True, but then so is High Street!

But it's still within easy walking distance of the main locations for people travelling in to Swansea. it's been a long time since I last visited but IIRC it's about 10-15 minutes walk to the Quadrant Bus station and the main shopping areas with probably the same again to the waterfront. The same can't be said for Landore.

 

[backontrack]

Here's a map I mocked up using https://beno.org.uk/metromapcreator:

 

[backontrack]

Fishguard trains use the Green Line for the whole way. I've rethought Milford Haven and Pembroke Dock services - they'd use the Blue Line between Pembrokeshire and Bridgend, but would be re-routed through Cowbridge to Cardiff. I may need another line for that.

 

[Llanigraham]

I would suggest that you need to look at the OS maps for the area.
For example: where are you going to put a railway from the east to The Mumbles?

 

[Envoy]

Mark Barry’s idea of building a new line from Baglan through to Swansea - roughly following the A483 is quite a good one as it would serve the city as well as new developments by the former docks (SA1). It would also be the quickest route from Cardiff to west Wales that also incorporates central Swansea. The big problem with it is the number of old houses that would have to be demolished in the Port Tennant area.

Mention has been made about the run-down appearance of the area near the present High Street station. (Arrival in Swansea is more like entering a third world city). This area needs to be incorporated into the plans that are in place for the re-building of Swansea from the central shopping area to the waterfront. Perhaps a new bus station or tram system should be built on land near the present station?

Any idea of building a direct line from Cardiff to Bridgend should be crossed off due to the topography.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Here's a map I mocked up using https://beno.org.uk/metromapcreator:

View attachment 35158

Great little map - well done.

If this were ever to happen , then Swansea would really be up there for a decent city metro.

I like the idea of a Pontardawe branch - the commuter dormitory that it now is (bar some local work) would be well served , course the town very nearly got a tram in the early 1900;s , in competition with the Swansea Vale (Midland) railway which was all about coal and tinplate , yet carried more local passengers into Swansea than did the suburban services of the time into St Pancras.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Why would all this money be spent on an average sized town when some of our larger cities don't have a sufficient transport system for their size (Bristol and Leeds for example)?

 

[Phil from Mon]

That sums it up - the "welcome to Swansea" of the insalubrious High St.....

Swansea in any case lacks the dynamism of Cardiff

Love the Dylan Thomas reference there - last time I stayed there (in fact the only time) my hotel was in Salubrious Place.

I thought it a much more "human" city than Cardiff though, friendlier all round, although High Street area is very run down

 

[Llanigraham]

Why would all this money be spent on an average sized town when some of our larger cities don't have a sufficient transport system for their size (Bristol and Leeds for example)?

You seem to have forgotten that Wales is not part of england and has it's own separate devolved Government!
I suggest that if you want improvements in your cities you complain to Westminster.

And Swansea is not an "average sized town" but the second largest city in Wales.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Love the Dylan Thomas reference there - last time I stayed there (in fact the only time) my hotel was in Salubrious Place.

I thought it a much more "human" city than Cardiff though, friendlier all round, although High Street area is very run down

I did a paper on "Dylan Thomas and the railways" for the Welsh Railways Record Society" for the 2014 anniversary (2 years of research !) , so maybe inadvertently my interest came out in that quote.

Swansea is a friendly place , indeed South Wales is generally. Just needs a thoroughly modern metro (as the phrase used for London some years back)

 

[Gareth Marston]

You seem to have forgotten that Wales is not part of england and has it's own separate devolved Government!
I suggest that if you want improvements in your cities you complain to Westminster.

And Swansea is not an "average sized town" but the second largest city in Wales.

Its the 25th largest individual place in the UK. With 225K in population and about that amount again in 60mins journey time of it. Whilst its not one or part of the 12 Metropolitan areas in the UK with one million plus in the city region its in the next tier down and its eastern periphery overlaps with Cardiff's western periphery.

 

[gg1]

I would suggest that you need to look at the OS maps for the area.
For example: where are you going to put a railway from the east to The Mumbles?

A tram/train would work with street running where required, mainly in the city centre. For much of the route along Oystermouth Road to the Mumbles I think it would be possible to run alongside the road.