SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Scotrail314209]

I'd imagine the interior layout would be similar to that of the Class 334s, which do just fine with armrests (just no tables!).

The seats could possibly remain the same as they are very comfy imo.

 

[RealTrains07]

In reality they’re not what they once were. The refurbishment for Southern wasn’t wonderful, and some of the nice features (such as compartments) were removed - though no doubt some will say that was an improvement!

They were nice trains, but haven’t really aged well unfortunately, and the fact that their traction system was prehistoric even from the time the units were built has not helped.

I’m surprised SWR aren’t going for 350/2s though. One can only assume that this is because they aren’t available yet, but then again neither are the 458s.

True I also am surprised considering the 350/2s fleets size is ideal.

But I guess with the 458s being under SWRs roof. They have more control over diagramming and it means nothing has to chance with the suburban fleet replacement. 458s can still go first and then be moved to Bournemouth for refurbishment

 

[Fincra5]

I'd imagine the interior layout would be similar to that of the Class 334s, which do just fine with armrests (just no tables!).

The seats could possibly remain the same as they are very comfy imo.

Pompey commuters are going to want Tables..they loath 450s..

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Pompey commuters are going to want Tables..they loath 450s..

Then I’m sure they’ll be so happy with an upgrade from 450s and from the 442s that many of them ungratefully then complained about, that they won’t care about the lack of big tables. They’ll have armrests and 2+2 which is more than 450s have, and they’ll retain the pull down trays.

 

[David Goddard]

Pompey commuters are going to want Tables..they loath 450s..

Pompey leisure travellers will want them even more. Trains are not just for commuters, despite what the press think!

 

[Phil R]

Disappointed with this, on the face of it poor fare compared with the 442s. I imagine Ian Walmsley of Modern Railways won't be able to conceal a smile today though.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Weren't the 458s regeared to 75 because of reliability issues running at 100?

If so, SWR are going to have to perfrom some kind of miracle to make them relaible at 100 and making them reliable in general.

 

[Goldfish62]

I'd imagine the interior layout would be similar to that of the Class 334s, which do just fine with armrests (just no tables!).

The seats could possibly remain the same as they are very comfy imo.

Given the seat design is obsolete I wonder if it's possible to get hold of the armrests.

Weren't the 458s regeared to 75 because of reliability issues running at 100?

If so, SWR are going to have to perfrom some kind of miracle to make them relaible at 100 and making them reliable in general.

Something to do with potential overhearing of the traction motors due to dragging around an extra coach, I believe.

 

[rdlover777]

It is now officially confirmed 442s will not be brought back into service.

(Cl 458s will be converted back to 4-car and re-geared for 100mph to be based at BM, but that is for another thread.)

bit tongue and cheek but can we get the 460s back while we're at it?

 

[DorkingMain]

Bet the 458s will be converted to DCO in the process.......

They already have door buttons in the cabs. I believe the plan for the 450s is driver open guard close so I wouldn't be surprised if they're made the same.

 

[traji00]

Looking at pictures, its more cramped than 377s (Picture)! Can't actually see where you'd even put DOO equipment given where the TMS is!

I stand corrected. Sign 458’s but not been in a 377 for years.

 

[43096]

Weren't the 458s regeared to 75 because of reliability issues running at 100?

If so, SWR are going to have to perfrom some kind of miracle to make them relaible at 100 and making them reliable in general.

No, that's utter nonsense - especially as they were the most trains EMUs in the country when they were re-geared.

The re-gearing was to reflect the type of duty they were to be used on (Windsor line suburban) and to prevent over-heating of the motors on those duties. As the motors were to be worked harder on the 5-car sets (effectively at full rating) the re-gearing causes the motor to turn more quickly, which draws more air into the motors (as they turn faster for a given train speed), so keeping them cool.

 

[Domh245]

Something to do with potential overhearing of the traction motors due to dragging around an extra coach, I believe.

That and the low speed of the suburban services they'd be working as /5 format - 100mph was entirely unnecessary so they might as well get the acceleration boost from shorter gearing. Not sure where the unreliability claim came from either - they were golden spanner winners pre-conversion achieving over 100,000MTIN

 

[Flange Squeal]

They already have door buttons in the cabs. I believe the plan for the 450s is driver open guard close so I wouldn't be surprised if they're made the same.

They'd need new Door Release Right buttons put in somewhere though, as the ones on the drivers desk (shown in the photo posted previously) were replaced by the larger GSM-R radio when that system replaced CSR. The cabs then further changed when the DAS screen was fitted, requiring the relocation of some buttons, filling up the space under the radio.

 

[delticdave]

No, that's utter nonsense - especially as they were the most trains EMUs in the country when they were re-geared.

The re-gearing was to reflect the type of duty they were to be used on (Windsor line suburban) and to prevent over-heating of the motors on those duties. As the motors were to be worked harder on the 5-car sets (effectively at full rating) the re-gearing causes the motor to turn more quickly, which draws more air into the motors (as they turn faster for a given train speed), so keeping them cool.

Since they are reverting to 4-car units, the higher power to weight ratio + 100 mph gearing should produce a useful EMU.

 

[43096]

Since they are reverting to 4-car units, the higher power to weight ratio + 100 mph gearing should produce a useful EMU.

I expect the motors will have to be de-rated again to run in 12-car formations: the logic that allowed the uprating on 5-car conversion was that they would only run as pairs so they could draw higher current as a 10-car. A 4-car 458 has the same number of traction motors (six) as a 5-car 458. There is a reliability benefit, though, as if the train "loses" an inverter (i.e. two motors), the other motors can be cranked up to the full rating automatically by the TMS software to compensate with no performance loss.

 

[Domh245]

I expect the motors will have to be de-rated again to run in 12-car formations: the logic that allowed the uprating on 5-car conversion was that they would only run as pairs so they could draw higher current as a 10-car. A 4-car 458 has the same number of traction motors (six) as a 5-car 458.

Surely you'd keep the motors as they are and then just limit the power if necessary in a 12 car formation? They've got 1620kW of motor/unit vs a desio's 2000kW, so they should already be capable of doing anything a 450 could do?

 

[fgwrich]

Given the seat design is obsolete I wonder if it's possible to get hold of the armrests.

The irony is, the former GatEx vehicles would have had them but will have long since been chucked in the bin. I can se them being re-seated. Probably with Fansia’s to keep them common across the SWR fleet, presumably with the re-used (and now wasted) first Class from the 442s, unless that ends up in the 159 fleet.

 

[43096]

Surely you'd keep the motors as they are and then just limit the power if necessary in a 12 car formation? They've got 1620kW of motor/unit vs a desio's 2000kW, so they should already be capable of doing anything a 450 could do?

It was always a software limit - the settings in the software were changed at 5-car conversion. Likewise, Desiros will be similarly limited - do they actually draw 2MW on DC?

There was an excellent article in Modern Railways at the time of the 5-car conversion written by Ian Walmsley - so it should be accurate, as it was his project!

The irony is, the former GatEx vehicles would have had them but will have long since been chucked in the bin. I can se them being re-seated. Probably with Fansia’s to keep them common across the SWR fleet, presumably with the re-used (and now wasted) first Class from the 442s, unless that ends up in the 159 fleet.

The end sections of 458531-536 behind the cabs (where first class was on 501-530) still have the original seats and armrests. Very nice they are, too!

 

[theironroad]

Is the power supply up to an 8-car? A 4-car would be insufficient (like 4-cars are insufficient for more or less anything in the South East).

Currently only 5 cars (444) in regular use with odd 4 car (450)

The 442 testing project that was running upto this month required a 8-455 to haul a dead 442 between Bournemouth and Weymouth, however that was when little other traffic around.

Iirc, current rules are 1 X 8 car per day is allowed but anything above 5 has to be specially authorised.

During the 2012 Olympics, 8 car 450 did run more often to Weymouth .

 

[dingdinger]

They already have door buttons in the cabs. I believe the plan for the 450s is driver open guard close so I wouldn't be surprised if they're made the same.

Yes from what I've heard this is the plan. 450/444 are unable to have full doo as they would be out of gauge but driver open and guard close is likely and I imagine the converted 458s will be the same.

 

[Domh245]

It was always a software limit - the settings in the software were changed at 5-car conversion. Likewise, Desiros will be similarly limited - do they actually draw 2MW on DC?

There was an excellent article in Modern Railways at the time of the 5-car conversion written by Ian Walmsley - so it should be accurate, as it was his project!

Ah, I took de-rate to mean physically altering the motors rather than current limiting through software. I agree, and severely doubt that desiros do draw the full 2MW on DC. I would hope though that they could be dynamically limited based on how long the train is rather than a flat rate so to speak - no need to permanently 'cripple' the fleet for the occasional 12 car working if they're mostly whizzing around in pairs

 

[Fincra5]

Sounds about right, they look fairly wide! A camera pod would add even more width each side.

Yes from what I've heard this is the plan. 450/444 are unable to have full doo as they would be out of gauge but driver open and guard close is likely and I imagine the converted 458s will be the same.

 

[Scotrail314209]

No, that's utter nonsense - especially as they were the most trains EMUs in the country when they were re-geared.

The re-gearing was to reflect the type of duty they were to be used on (Windsor line suburban) and to prevent over-heating of the motors on those duties. As the motors were to be worked harder on the 5-car sets (effectively at full rating) the re-gearing causes the motor to turn more quickly, which draws more air into the motors (as they turn faster for a given train speed), so keeping them cool.

The motor issue seems to reflect that of the 334s. Their motors were prone to overheating on the occasion they worked on a Cathcart service due to quick succession of stops.

 

[Kite159]

I'd imagine the interior layout would be similar to that of the Class 334s, which do just fine with armrests (just no tables!).

The seats could possibly remain the same as they are very comfy imo.

Agreed about the seats on the 458/5s being very comfy, in my eyes much better than the seats on the 442s.

It will be interesting to see what is done to the interiors, carpets, arm-rests, tables for the bays, new bogs (and maybe larger tanks if they will fit). At least the future of a fleet which had an uncertain future remains, as I do have a soft-spot for the 458s.

 

[pompeyfan]

Going off track here but if you can add a camera to a 165/166 then you can fit it to the outside of a Desiro or 458... not that I want them to

 

[Fincra5]

Going off track here but if you can add a camera to a 165/166 then you can fit it to the outside of a Desiro or 458... not that I want them to

Depends on Route Clearance... Some areas could have lineside structures or equipment that a DOO Camera Pod could cause issue on. No forgetting the actual equipment within the cab! Both 450s and 458s seem quite cramped for space for a Bank of Monitors (with at least 2 screens for 12 Images). So can't see 458s or 450/444s getting DOO Camera's.

 

[pompeyfan]

Depends on Route Clearance... Some areas could have lineside structures or equipment that a DOO Camera Pod could cause issue on.

I’m pretty certain (although happy to be corrected) that Turbo units have the biggest footprint as they’re the same width as most 20m stock but are 23m in length. If anything was going to clobber line side structures it would be these things.

 

[bramling]

Agreed about the seats on the 458/5s being very comfy, in my eyes much better than the seats on the 442s.

It will be interesting to see what is done to the interiors, carpets, arm-rests, tables for the bays, new bogs (and maybe larger tanks if they will fit). At least the future of a fleet which had an uncertain future remains, as I do have a soft-spot for the 458s.

Yes it’s good the 458s have got a reasonably secure future. They would likely have been scrapped otherwise, and they’ve actually settled down to being not too bad trains, both from an operator and passenger point of view. And of course from an enthusiast point of view they’re an interesting fleet, by virtue of their colourful history and the fact they’re just a little bit different from the standard Electrostar / Desiro EMU diet.

With 458s now out of the equation for GTR (the only other place they could easily have gone), that’s also one potential 455/313 replacement option now off the table (not that is was ever a likely one).

Presumably no one would now be daft enough to take on the 442s.

 

[Fincra5]

I’m pretty certain (although happy to be corrected) that Turbo units have the biggest footprint as they’re the same width as most 20m stock but are 23m in length. If anything was going to clobber line side structures it would be these things.

Correct, but also don't run the exact same routes as a 450 or 458...