SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Siemens Staines]

After a very long period out of use, 458512 has returned to service

Realtime Trains - 2C20 0808 Reading to London Waterloo

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

My non scientific list of those that have not worked within the last month (exclding 507,517,534)

458504,506,522,529,535

 

[jayiscupid]

I agree. The artists impression when the trains were ordered showed a unit in the original Stagecoach stripes livery (and also a much more stylish front end design).

Are there any photos/impressions of this you can share?

 

[Goldfish62]

Are there any photos/impressions of this you can share?

I'll do a search and see if I can find any.

 

[pompeyfan]

Is there a speculate thread for 185s? I could imagine they’ll find a home somewhere, but don’t want to throw this thread off.

 

[Electrostar]

I'll do a search and see if I can find any.

Are there any photos/impressions of this you can share?

Sorry to butt in but there's a press photo on the Alamy site which includes the artist's impression of the 458s.

For comparison, you can just about make out the artist impression of the GEC Alstom Juniper stock defined for Gatwick Express. Again these ended up looking very different - and not just the livery!

 

[Doomotron]

Sorry to butt in but there's a press photo on the Alamy site which includes the artist's impression of the 458s.

For comparison, you can just about make out the artist impression of the GEC Alstom Juniper stock defined for Gatwick Express. Again these ended up looking very different - and not just the livery!

I sort of like the rectangular headlights. Definitely fugly but reminds me of sports cars of that era like the Bugatti Veyron and Audi Rosemeyer.

 

[Goldfish62]

Sorry to butt in but there's a press photo on the Alamy site which includes the artist's impression of the 458s.

That's the one! I remember Graham Eccles, then-MD of SWT saying he couldn't understand how the design could have gone so wrong between artist's impression and what was actually delivered.

 

[fgwrich]

That's the one! I remember Graham Eccles, then-MD of SWT saying he couldn't understand how the design could have gone so wrong between artist's impression and what was actually delivered.

I can’t remember who re-designed them (I beleive it was in an article in Modern Railways a few years ago), but I do recall that the light clusters, and sweeping front end, had been inspired by the Ford KA.

 

[jayiscupid]

Sorry to butt in but there's a press photo on the Alamy site which includes the artist's impression of the 458s.

For comparison, you can just about make out the artist impression of the GEC Alstom Juniper stock defined for Gatwick Express. Again these ended up looking very different - and not just the livery!

Thanks! That design of lights helps to tidy up the front end.

 

[Goldfish62]

I can’t remember who re-designed them (I beleive it was in an article in Modern Railways a few years ago), but I do recall that the light clusters, and sweeping front end, had been inspired by the Ford KA.

It was Ian Walmsley formerly of Porterbrook who wrote the article. What he didn't say was why the redesign from a stylish curved front to a flat slab was undertaken.

I also remember at the time that the telescopic gangway was queried but Alstom/Porterbrook claimed that it was a requirement on all new stock to improve driver vision. Clearly that proved not to be the case.

I went to an SWT talk about the forthcoming new trains and it was claimed there that the gangways would be fully open to passengers and could be deployed within the same time that it took to couple and uncouple the units. Also clearly not the case.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Any CGI images or artist impressions of a 458 in SWR livery?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also remember at the time that the telescopic gangway was queried but Alstom/Porterbrook claimed that it was a requirement on all new stock to improve driver vision. Clearly that proved not to be the case.

There was a huge swathe of stuff that was allegedly a requirement on all new stock but later proved false. The uselessly small overheads on Voyagers and all *Stars are another example (80x and CAF units have overheads bigger than anything since the Mk1), as are tiny windows (plenty of new stuff with big ones).

 

[fgwrich]

It was Ian Walmsley formerly of Porterbrook who wrote the article. What he didn't say was why the redesign from a stylish curved front to a flat slab was undertaken.

I also remember at the time that the telescopic gangway was queried but Alstom/Porterbrook claimed that it was a requirement on all new stock to improve driver vision. Clearly that proved not to be the case.

I went to an SWT talk about the forthcoming new trains and it was claimed there that the gangways would be fully open to passengers and could be deployed within the same time that it took to couple and uncouple the units. Also clearly not the case.

Thanks @Goldfish62 - I had a feeling it was Mr Walmsley who produced that article (as he so often does with Modern Railways). I too would like to know why such a drastic, and ultimately adject failure, design change was made - it did of course, in return take up more space in the cab than a conventional corridor would have done. And as for taking inspiration from the Ford KA...

 

[ainsworth74]

There was some off-topic discussion which seemed to be more around alternative rolling stock provision on SWR. So that is now in its own thread here. Please can we stick to discussing SWRs 458s in this thread

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not particularly interesting but you can see a carriage from either 458507 or 517 here:

 

[K.o.R]

Sorry to butt in but there's a press photo on the Alamy site which includes the artist's impression of the 458s.

"with whom SWT have agreed a 90 million new train order". That's one-and-a-half trains per person in the country. Where's my personal 458?

 

[AlistairCowell]

Saw that photo of that, but they do look like Class 450s.
But as for the current progress of the Class 458 refurb, little progress (if not nothing) has been made so far.

 

[Invincible]

Saw that photo of that, but they do look like Class 450s.
But as for the current progress of the Class 458 refurb, little progress (if not nothing) has been made so far.

Initially the 458s with SWT had software problems and had to be occassionaly "rebooted" but (other than the toilets) became reliable, and as a passenger were comfortable.
Seems the 458s at Widnes are to be reverted back to express gearing and from 5 back to 4 coaches as they used to be. So should be straightforward?

Like the 450 refurbishment, the existing red seats will probably be replaced with harder grey seats.The exterior paintwork will be mostly grey/dark blue like the 450s?

Thought they were using them on those units.



When they're a considerable upgrade from 3+2 seated 450s I'm not sure how important armrests would be. Tables would be useful though.

I do indeed wonder as some have if they'll put the seats and tables from the 442s in, though, as those already have armrests.

Wonder if they recovered much new seating and carpets from the refurbished, then scrapped 442s to be reused in the Juniper 458s?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Wonder if they recovered much new seating and carpets from the refurbished, then scrapped 442s to be reused in the Juniper 458s?

Probably the first class seats but the current Standard class seats are perfectly fine and comfortable

 

[43102EMR]

Probably the first class seats but the current Standard class seats are perfectly fine and comfortable

The “first class” seats are definitely in need of replacement - basically the standard class seats used on GWR’s HSTs and EMR/some of Scotrail’s 158s…

 

[JonathanH]

The “first class” seats are definitely in need of replacement - basically the standard class seats used on GWR’s HSTs and EMR/some of Scotrail’s 158s…

It really hasn't been unusual in the past for first class seats in outer suburban stock in the South East to be the same as those used as standard class in longer distance stock, sometimes adjusted to have a reclining mechanism.

317s had the same first class seats as were used in standard class on Mark 3 carriages

321s had the same first class seats as were used in standard class on 442s

350s and 450s (and 458s as built) have the same first class seats as installed in standard class on 377s.

Even what has gone in first class on the 444s (and could potentially go in a 458) is the standard class seat on 745s and 755s.

The current first class seats in the 458s were a reasonable step up on what was fitted before.

 

[Bayum]

There was a huge swathe of stuff that was allegedly a requirement on all new stock but later proved false. The uselessly small overheads on Voyagers and all *Stars are another example (80x and CAF units have overheads bigger than anything since the Mk1), as are tiny windows (plenty of new stuff with big ones).

Overheads?

 

[swt_passenger]

Seems the 458s at Widnes are to be reverted back to express gearing and from 5 back to 4 coaches as they used to be. So should be straightforward?

There’s no “seems” about it, that’s exactly what SWR stated the ROSCO would be doing, see post #4.

 

[Roast Veg]

Overheads?

Overhead luggage storage.

As an exception that proves the rule, the voyagers have some of the best windows going.

 

[DelW]

Like the 450 refurbishment, the existing red seats will probably be replaced with harder grey seats.The exterior paintwork will be mostly grey/dark blue like the 450s?

I don't think that the thickness of the upholstery changed when the 450s were refurbished. If anything the new cushions (if you can call them that on any modern seat) seemed to me to be more comfortable than those they replaced, as the foam in the red original seats had been squashed pretty thin over fifteen years of use.

Presumably the 458s' livery will be the standard SWR grey and dark blue, unless the whole process takes so long that SWR has been replaced by something else by the time they reappear.

 

[urpert]

I don't think that the thickness of the upholstery changed when the 450s were refurbished. If anything the new cushions (if you can call them that on any modern seat) seemed to me to be more comfortable than those they replaced, as the foam in the red original seats had been squashed pretty thin over fifteen years of use.

Presumably the 458s' livery will be the standard SWR grey and dark blue, unless the whole process takes so long that SWR has been replaced by something else by the time they reappear.

The 458 seats are lovely and squashy compared to any modern stock though. They really are very comfortable trains.

 

[DelW]

The 458 seats are lovely and squashy compared to any modern stock though. They really are very comfortable trains.

In that case I hope the seats aren't changed during the refurb. The only time I've ever been on a 458 was in their original form, and I'll admit I don't remember the seats at all. It's all Desiros down my way.

 

[railwaytrack]

When the 458s are refurbished and reformed and reenter service will they be renumbered from 458/5 back to 458/0 again? Or are they keeping their current unit numbers? Or maybe even gaining a new sub class number? Has this been decided on yet?

 

[DennisM]

In that case I hope the seats aren't changed during the refurb. The only time I've ever been on a 458 was in their original form, and I'll admit I don't remember the seats at all. It's all Desiros down my way.

They will probably want to add tray tables though, so might depend on whether they can still source replacement backs for these seats which incorporate them.
Also arm rests would be nice to bring them up to 444 comfort level, there seems to be space on the existing seats. Only issue is the quite narrow aisle on 458s, not sure whether arm rests would make this worse or if it’s only narrow due to all of the grab rails.

 

[Scotrail314209]

They will probably want to add tray tables though, so might depend on whether they can still source replacement backs for these seats which incorporate them.
Also arm rests would be nice to bring them up to 444 comfort level, there seems to be space on the existing seats. Only issue is the quite narrow aisle on 458s, not sure whether arm rests would make this worse or if it’s only narrow due to all of the grab rails.

The very similar 334s have armrests, and they don't really take up much space.