TfL 15H Routemaster service unlikely to return post-COVID

[Journeyman]

"not needed for the current and predicted customer demand on this corridor"...

.... because they could not be bothered to market it or accept Oyster cards.

It's pretty obvious that in TfL's current state it's absolutely not a priority, and demand will be well down for years. What else were they supposed to do?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's pretty obvious that in TfL's current state it's absolutely not a priority, and demand will be well down for years. What else were they supposed to do?

Agreed. Running tourist curiosities more of interest to photographers than passengers is really not TfL's role.

 

[Journeyman]

Agreed. Running tourist curiosities more of interest to photographers than passengers is really not TfL's role.

Certainly not any more, it isn't. It might have been OK when they were awash with cash, but if anyone thinks this is an essential part of their remit, I suggest they need a big dose of reality.

If one of the sightseeing operators chose to operate vintage vehicles, I'm sure it would go down well, but TfL have much more important - and existential - things to worry about.

 

[MotCO]

Certainly not any more, it isn't. It might have been OK when they were awash with cash, but if anyone thinks this is an essential part of their remit, I suggest they need a big dose of reality.

If one of the sightseeing operators chose to operate vintage vehicles, I'm sure it would go down well, but TfL have much more important - and existential - things to worry about.

If it was properly marketed, actually marketed at all, it could have generated more custom and hence more income. Would it have covered its costs? Don't know.

It did accept Oyster, just not contactless.

My mistake
Edit: on the other hand, what is Oyster if not contactless?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If one of the sightseeing operators chose to operate vintage vehicles, I'm sure it would go down well, but TfL have much more important - and existential - things to worry about.

There was also the fact that they were no more vintage vehicles than a Dennis Dart. The interior was modernised with fluorescent lighting, and the engine and transmission were straight out of a Dart and so they didn't even sound vintage any more, but rather like an oversized hairdryer. They had very much been "Trigger's Broom"-ed. Essentially about as vintage as a Chiltern Mk3 or a Class 230.

Yes, there was the curiosity of jumping on and off while it was moving (being told off by, but ignoring, the conductor), but that aside...

 

[Journeyman]

If it was properly marketed, actually marketed at all, it could have generated more custom and hence more income. Would it have covered its costs? Don't know.

I very much doubt it. I don't think it was actually anywhere near as appealing as a lot of enthusiasts think it was, and the two heritage routes were only introduced to try and diffuse some of the controversy caused when Routemasters were retired from everyday service in 2005. It had got to the point where it was far too much hassle to keep going, and I very much doubt there's going to be any real, justifiable complaint over it. The pandemic may have finished it off, but it would have fizzled out eventually anyway.

TfL have much bigger things to worry about. It's not their job to run things like this day in, day out. They do a great job of preserving their heritage anyway.

There was also the fact that they were no more vintage vehicles than a Dennis Dart. The interior was modernised with fluorescent lighting, and the engine and transmission were straight out of a Dart and so they didn't even sound vintage any more, but rather like an oversized hairdryer. They had very much been "Trigger's Broom"-ed. Essentially about as vintage as a Chiltern Mk3.

Yes, there was the curiosity of jumping on and off while it was moving (being told off by, but ignoring, the conductor), but that aside...

Exactly, I'd happily pay good money to travel on a Routemaster in original condition, but those things were just weird hybrids and had absolutely no appeal whatsoever. I suspect a lot of people felt the same.

 

[WesternLancer]

There was also the fact that they were no more vintage vehicles than a Dennis Dart. The interior was modernised with fluorescent lighting, and the engine and transmission were straight out of a Dart and so they didn't even sound vintage any more, but rather like an oversized hairdryer. They had very much been "Trigger's Broom"-ed. Essentially about as vintage as a Chiltern Mk3 or a Class 230.

Yes, there was the curiosity of jumping on and off while it was moving (being told off by, but ignoring, the conductor), but that aside...

Indeed, but I doubt very much any overseas tourists would have any issues with that. It's their absence that is the problem of course, not the absence of the older era mechanics of the bus....

 

[AlbertBeale]

I very much doubt it. I don't think it was actually anywhere near as appealing as a lot of enthusiasts think it was, and the two heritage routes were only introduced to try and diffuse some of the controversy caused when Routemasters were retired from everyday service in 2005. It had got to the point where it was far too much hassle to keep going, and I very much doubt there's going to be any real, justifiable complaint over it. The pandemic may have finished it off, but it would have fizzled out eventually anyway.

I imagine they might have been trying to defuse the controversy as much as diffusing it...

 

[Class465pacer]

I suspect a lot of people felt the same.

I’m not sure the average passenger is going to care or notice where the engine or lighting is from. At the end of the day it’s still a vintage bus

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, but I doubt very much any overseas tourists would have any issues with that. It's their absence that is the problem of course, not the absence of the older era mechanics of the bus....

Overseas tourists just want "red double decker buses", I doubt they care what type. If they did the tourist operations would be running RMs, and they aren't.

 

[londonteacher]

Overseas tourists just want "red double decker buses", I doubt they care what type. If they did the tourist operations would be running RMs, and they aren't.

Agreed. Many of the tourists knew they needed a 15 to get to their destination but they weren't fussed if it was an old RMs or the modern version.

Just like most people.

 

[Mikey C]

Overseas tourists just want "red double decker buses", I doubt they care what type. If they did the tourist operations would be running RMs, and they aren't.

Tourist buses have to meet the same rules as normal buses, Euro V1 engine, disabled access etc

Overseas tourists obviously can tell the difference between an RM and a modern bus, as they look completely different.

 

[Robertj21a]

Tourist buses have to meet the same rules as normal buses, Euro V1 engine, disabled access etc

Overseas tourists obviously can tell the difference between an RM and a modern bus, as they look completely different.

Most 'normal' tourists just know London as having red double deck buses. Few will be looking out for it to be a Routemaster.

 

[Ianno87]

Most 'normal' tourists just know London as having red double deck buses. Few will be looking out for it to be a Routemaster.

And if they desperately want to see one, that's what the Transport Museum is for.

 

[Mikey C]

Most 'normal' tourists just know London as having red double deck buses. Few will be looking out for it to be a Routemaster.

Look at any postcard of London, if they have a bus it's always a Routemaster

 

[Robertj21a]

Look at any postcard of London, if they have a bus it's always a Routemaster

Largely true - but I can also buy postcards with dinosaurs on them. Should I seek them out too?

 

[Journeyman]

Look at any postcard of London, if they have a bus it's always a Routemaster

That doesn't place any obligation on TfL to populate the streets with them.

 

[Busaholic]

Largely true - but I can also buy postcards with dinosaurs on them. Should I seek them out too?

Crystal Palace Park should be your destination, quite close to where Routemaster no. one terminated on the 2 route when it was not only new but unique. As a kid I used to travel there to see both - not that I could get on the RM, seeing as how children had to pay and money was there none!

 

[alex397]

As I have said previously, I can certainly understand why TfL have withdrawn the 15H. Especially with the financial issues they are having. It should be operated by a specialist company, or in association with a museum/enthusiasts organisation.

However, I still feel they wasted the resources they put in to it. Funding a service using two staff per bus, and with the maintainence costs involved with using heritage vehicles (Dart engines probably helped, but of course there’s the bodywork and everything else to think about). All of that, and it was never properly advertised. No posters at bus stops, no online advertising, no leaflets. Just a very small footnote at the bottom of the ordinary 15 timetable. It’s no wonder it was lightly used.
I’m not saying TfL should be funding such services, but as they did it anyway they should have done it properly as it was a waste otherwise.

I know some tourists just want a red double-decker even if it’s modern, but I think many more would have seeked this service if they knew about it (especially if they found out it was part of the TfL ticketing, rather than an expensive tour operator fare) I often saw groups of tourists using the service, and heard them talking really enthusiastically about the old buses and I often heard ‘Routemaster’ being mentioned. I doubt they would be so enthusiastic on a modern vehicle. There is a difference.

There are many European cities which have vintage buses or trams in public service. I’ve seen it in most cities I’ve visited. Either operated directly by the municipal operator, or in association with the local transport museum or enthusiast organisation. And the vehicles they use are probably no where near as famous as the Routemaster.

 

[cnjb8]

Largely true - but I can also buy postcards with dinosaurs on them. Should I seek them out too?

See the thing is Routemasters actually exist!

 

[londonteacher]

It's not coming back with TFL whether people on here like it or not for the reasons cited previously. That doesn't mean another operator couldn't do so as a tourist route if it was feasible.

 

[Robertj21a]

It's not coming back with TFL whether people on here like it or not for the reasons cited previously. That doesn't mean another operator couldn't do so as a tourist route if it was feasible.

They already have Routemasters available to London tourists- look at Brigit's bakery bus tours. Routemasters couldn't operate as a normal service as they can't meet disability legislation.

 

[Surreytraveller]

If it was properly marketed, actually marketed at all, it could have generated more custom and hence more income. Would it have covered its costs? Don't know.



My mistake
Edit: on the other hand, what is Oyster if not contactless?

Oystercard and Contactless are different technologies

 

[Journeyman]

You can use a prepay balance or a ticket loaded on an Oyster card. Contactless here refers to Contactless debit and credit cards, which couldn't be used on the 15H.

 

[WesternLancer]

As I have said previously, I can certainly understand why TfL have withdrawn the 15H. Especially with the financial issues they are having. It should be operated by a specialist company, or in association with a museum/enthusiasts organisation.

However, I still feel they wasted the resources they put in to it. Funding a service using two staff per bus, and with the maintainence costs involved with using heritage vehicles (Dart engines probably helped, but of course there’s the bodywork and everything else to think about). All of that, and it was never properly advertised. No posters at bus stops, no online advertising, no leaflets. Just a very small footnote at the bottom of the ordinary 15 timetable. It’s no wonder it was lightly used.
I’m not saying TfL should be funding such services, but as they did it anyway they should have done it properly as it was a waste otherwise.

I know some tourists just want a red double-decker even if it’s modern, but I think many more would have seeked this service if they knew about it (especially if they found out it was part of the TfL ticketing, rather than an expensive tour operator fare) I often saw groups of tourists using the service, and heard them talking really enthusiastically about the old buses and I often heard ‘Routemaster’ being mentioned. I doubt they would be so enthusiastic on a modern vehicle. There is a difference.

There are many European cities which have vintage buses or trams in public service. I’ve seen it in most cities I’ve visited. Either operated directly by the municipal operator, or in association with the local transport museum or enthusiast organisation. And the vehicles they use are probably no where near as famous as the Routemaster.

Good analysis - I very much agree with your points made here.

 

[richardcoughla]

So what will happen to the buses? Are they to be kept in storage?

They are gathering dust at West Ham (WH) garage. Some have been de blinded.

 

[Journeyman]

They are gathering dust at WH garage some have been de blinded.

They'll probably get sold for special events or something. They're not much good for anything else.

 

[M803UYA]

True. If somebody just wants something that looks like a genuine Routemaster then these will probably do. Most people won't realise the difference(s).

I doubt TfL will have an issue selling these buses on, Routemasters command good prices on the open market, are highly sought after. Ones which have modern drivetrains even more so!

 

[CBlue]

I doubt TfL will have an issue selling these buses on, Routemasters command good prices on the open market, are highly sought after. Ones which have modern drivetrains even more so!

Ensign at one point were selling good examples for £30k+.


The 15H was only ever introduced as a political sop. As for being profitable - if there was profit in it, someone would already be running such a service.


That no-one is doing so says it all.

 

[Mikey C]

That doesn't place any obligation on TfL to populate the streets with them.

I wasn't saying they should, but replying to the previous suggestion that all tourists care about is any red London double decker