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TfL Emergency Board meeting 9th August re funding crisis

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Snow1964

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The TfL Board were convened (actually a Teams meeting) at 17:00 today

The item on agenda was the Government offer of funding / bailout

1 Summary
1.1 This is a pivotal moment in TfL’s recovery from the coronavirus pandemic. The devasting impact the pandemic had on TfL’s finances meant that extraordinary Government funding has been required to continue to operate our services. Over the course of the pandemic, the Government has provided over £5bn of funding to TfL. However, TfL has been on a path back to financial sustainability and therefore on a declining trajectory of Government support. We are now discussing a last extraordinary funding settlement with Government, which will support TfL’s final stage of its path back to financial sustainability from April 2023.
1.2 TfL also requires longer-term capital funding to avoid the ‘managed decline’ trajectory that the current budget is based on. Managed decline involves significant service reductions, deteriorating asset conditions and no new enhancement schemes. This not only would mean that we will fail to make progress on critical priorities such as safety, decarbonisation and air quality, but it would trap London’s transport network in a vicious circle of deteriorating services and declining demand. Avoiding managed decline is critical to supporting the London economic recovery, and therefore the national economic recovery, following the pandemic.
1.3 In response to TfL’s request for short-term revenue support ending on 31 March 2023 – from which point TfL would be financially sustainable – and a multi-year capital settlement, Government has proposed a 20-month settlement with wide ranging and complex conditions.
1.4 This proposed funding settlement was shared with TfL late on 22 July 2022 and has been subject to intense discussions with Her Majesty’s Government (HMG) officials over the intervening period.
1.5 Given the very significant complexity and the implications for London’s transport system, TfL officers have been engaged in multiple collaborative clarification discussions with HMG officials. There have also been detailed discussions on multiple elements of the proposal, some of which are still ongoing.

1.6 At the time of writing, TfL does not have a final draft proposal from HMG. Therefore, it is not possible to recommend a proposal to the Board at this time.


It appears no official comments yet from either TfL or DfT, but various commentators (who might have contacts with inside knowledge) are saying elements have been rejected.


Transport for London (TfL) has confirmed that it is rejecting the current government funding offer, while it continues to negotiate the terms of the package available.

It was also confirmed that while there’s a risk that without an agreement, TfL would be forced to start major cuts to services to balance its finances, that is not yet expected to happen. TfL, which had been on course to break even in running costs in 2023, had its finances thrown into disarray by the pandemic, being required to provide a public transport service while its fares income that it depends on was almost entirely wiped out.


It is now 6 days since an extra 5 days were granted (after previous extensions) and there has been no official comments. Anyone know what is actually going on ?
 
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It will be kicked down the road yet again especially as we’ll probably have a new transport Secretary in the next month who may or may not be so ideologically opposed to help funding the capital‘s public transport and also maybe not so confrontational just because he doesn’t like the mayor.

But hey! It‘s the Tory party. They seem hell bent in breaking everything they touch so don’t be surprised if reintroducing steam trains becomes part of the terms and conditions of any future bailout.

Getting a bit silly now.
 

bramling

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It will be kicked down the road yet again especially as we’ll probably have a new transport Secretary in the next month who may or may not be so ideologically opposed to help funding the capital‘s public transport and also maybe not so confrontational just because he doesn’t like the mayor.

But hey! It‘s the Tory party. They seem hell bent in breaking everything they touch so don’t be surprised if reintroducing steam trains becomes part of the terms and conditions of any future bailout.

Getting a bit silly now.

They must surely be looking to kiss goodbye to all their remaining London constituencies now. No doubt in a year’s time they will suddenly get the vote begging-bowl out.

Goodness knows what they’re playing at, to be honest, other than of course to score points against Khan, but this course of action is hardly likely to lead to a Conservative mayor.
 

matt_world2004

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Speculation on my department is that they were going to provide £200 million less than asked for and told tfl to reduce the pension spend .

That they weren't happy when TfL told them the introduction of GOA3+ driverless trains across the network would take decades and this has effected some of the funding too
 

Tube driver

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Speculation on my department is that they were going to provide £200 million less than asked for and told tfl to reduce the pension spend .

That they weren't happy when TfL told them the introduction of GOA3+ driverless trains across the network would take decades and this has effected some of the funding too
That’s just spite. Every man and his dog knows and has known for years that the introduction of so-called driverless trains would take years and cost billions. There’s been endless reports telling them this and now it’s come as a surprise to Schapps and the DfT?

if you gave TfL the money tomorrow they’d jump straight into making it happen but thanks to covid and the government’s intransigence in properly funding TfL, it will now take years longer than previously envisioned to bring into fruition.

The pension scheme is just red meat politics designed to get the Dailymailers frothing and to engineer a fight with the unions. The scheme is in surplus and the report acknowledges that it is well run and managed and even TfL recognises its importance in employee recruitment and retention.
 

matt_world2004

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That’s just spite. Every man and his dog knows and has known for years that the introduction of so-called driverless trains would take years and cost billions. There’s been endless reports telling them this and now it’s come as a surprise to Schapps and the DfT?

if you gave TfL the money tomorrow they’d jump straight into making it happen but thanks to covid and the government’s intransigence in properly funding TfL, it will now take years longer than previously envisioned to bring into fruition.

The pension scheme is just red meat politics designed to get the Dailymailers frothing and to engineer a fight with the unions. The scheme is in surplus and the report acknowledges that it is well run and managed and even TfL recognises its importance in employee recruitment and retention.
Yes. It's conmen trying to create political theatre using London's Transport system as a prop
 

WizCastro197

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I remember seeing an article many months ago when the bakerloo Line extension was put on hold. Khan said something like "How come tory Wandsworth gets a new underground extension but not labour areas"

Its such a shame that the government is very content in forcing Londons transport into a downward spiral to show labour some sort of lesson?
 

Need2

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It will be kicked down the road yet again especially as we’ll probably have a new transport Secretary in the next month who may or may not be so ideologically opposed to help funding the capital‘s public transport and also maybe not so confrontational just because he doesn’t like the mayor.

But hey! It‘s the Tory party. They seem hell bent in breaking everything they touch so don’t be surprised if reintroducing steam trains becomes part of the terms and conditions of any future bailout.

Getting a bit silly now.
Brilliant :lol::lol::lol:
 

STINT47

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I have a suspicion that if a Conservative mayor had been elected then this would have been resolved long ago.

As it is I think the government is hoping that if London transport does go downhill then the current mayor and Labour will get the blame and become unpopular, boosting Tory support in future elections.
 
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I have a suspicion that if a Conservative mayor had been elected then this would have been resolved long ago.

As it is I think the government is hoping that if London transport does go downhill then the current mayor and Labour will get the blame and become unpopular, boosting Tory support in future elections.
The Tories have given up on getting a Mayor for at least the next election - they don't have the organisation or likely candidate pool (unless the Blond Blimp gets desperate for pocket money again and fancies a go) to be competitive and are going to be focusing resource on trying not to lose too many North London MPs next go around. This is why there is almost no consequence to them turning a partisan moron like Schapps lose on TfL, they have already factored in that London won't elect them for a generation.

All that's left is spite - which they've practiced out in the open since Greyling's "Non! Memo" was published years back that everything that makes life difficult for a Labour mayor is fine.

Schapp's idiotic "driverless trains" wheeze is just rubbing in that he doesn't care what happens to TfL as long as Fail readers outside the M25 get their sugar-rush from his baiting.

And the potential to vandalise the Pension Scheme for "reasons" should rightly be a rallying point for opposition.
 

Mikey C

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The Conservatives still have 21 seats in London, and as they went down to 11 seats in 1997, that would suggest that 10 are losable. That's a reasonably significant chunk of the government's majority
 

Nicholas Lewis

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This is just posturing by both sides and once a new transport secretary is in post in a little over three weeks there will be another bailout whilst the new SoS resets the relationship.
 

bramling

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The Tories have given up on getting a Mayor for at least the next election - they don't have the organisation or likely candidate pool (unless the Blond Blimp gets desperate for pocket money again and fancies a go) to be competitive and are going to be focusing resource on trying not to lose too many North London MPs next go around. This is why there is almost no consequence to them turning a partisan moron like Schapps lose on TfL, they have already factored in that London won't elect them for a generation.

All that's left is spite - which they've practiced out in the open since Greyling's "Non! Memo" was published years back that everything that makes life difficult for a Labour mayor is fine.

Schapp's idiotic "driverless trains" wheeze is just rubbing in that he doesn't care what happens to TfL as long as Fail readers outside the M25 get their sugar-rush from his baiting.

And the potential to vandalise the Pension Scheme for "reasons" should rightly be a rallying point for opposition.

One way or other, it’s not good enough.

Governments are supposed to govern for the whole country, including those that didn’t vote for them. Presumably Johnson was playing truant in the Bullingdon Club on the day that Eton taught this.

But even from a tactical point of view, writing off London is a stupid strategy, as it will lose them their remaining MPs, and also risks alienating the wider south-east. I suppose Johnson is too engrossed with playing games to spite “plebs” to care about any of this.

This is just posturing by both sides and once a new transport secretary is in post in a little over three weeks there will be another bailout whilst the new SoS resets the relationship.

Let’s hope so. I think we’re all pretty sick of these silly Johnson-led games.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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One way or other, it’s not good enough.

Governments are supposed to govern for the whole country, including those that didn’t vote for them. Presumably Johnson was playing truant in the Bullingdon Club on the day that Eton taught this
Yeah right where have you been living for the last 50 years. Whoever's in power has never done this and thats the problem with politics in this country always flip flopping. We need a new approach to democracy in this country thats more reflective of what the majority of people want.
 

bramling

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Yeah right where have you been living for the last 50 years. Whoever's in power has never done this and thats the problem with politics in this country always flip flopping. We need a new approach to democracy in this country thats more reflective of what the majority of people want.

Oh I know it’s always gone on, but this lot have taken it to a completely new level. The level of professionalism exhibited by this government is rock-bottom. I struggle to recall a government like it in my life time. Even the likes of John Prescott would be a statesman compared to any of this mob, and that’s saying something.

What seems to be different with this lot is that most governments are wary of upsetting people too much, with one eye always being kept on the next election. This gov don’t seem to give a stuff about that, which is quite odd really, as I’m not sure where they think the votes are going to come from if they upset too many people. I guess it doesn’t help that Labour are as much use as a chocolate teapot at the moment, and the Lib Dems aren’t the force they were in the 2000s.
 
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Wolfie

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I have a suspicion that if a Conservative mayor had been elected then this would have been resolved long ago.

As it is I think the government is hoping that if London transport does go downhill then the current mayor and Labour will get the blame and become unpopular, boosting Tory support in future elections.
I live in London. There will be less Tory MPs than dodos come the next election. BoZo being the first one out of the door.

This is just posturing by both sides and once a new transport secretary is in post in a little over three weeks there will be another bailout whilst the new SoS resets the relationship.
You reckon? Most people l know despise the current lot to the extent that someone l know who until three years ago was a Tory party member suggests that if Johnson was on fire the only liquid he'd apply would be paraffin.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Oh I know it’s always gone on, but this lot have taken it to a completely new level. The level of professionalism exhibited by this government is rock-bottom. I struggle to recall a government like it in my life time. Even the likes of John Prescott would be a statesman compared to any of this mob, and that’s saying something.
Agreed
What seems to be different with this lot is that most governments are wary of upsetting people too much, with one eye always being kept on the next election. This gov don’t seem to give a stuff about that, which is quite odd really, as I’m not sure where they think the votes are going to come from if they upset too many people. I guess it doesn’t help that Labour are as much use as a chocolate teapot at the moment, and the Lib Dems aren’t the force they were in the 2000s.
They aren't bothered and don't have that many seats now and for far less money can bung the money up North and get more seats.
 

bramling

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Agreed

They aren't bothered and don't have that many seats now and for far less money can bung the money up North and get more seats.

I don’t know if the “north” strategy is as solid as they think it is. For one votes were certainly lent to the Conservatives for Brexit reasons, and people will be wondering what has actually been done for them by this government (it’s hard to think of one thing besides the vaccine rollout they’ve achieved which has actually been a success). Meanwhile they seem to be doing a grand job of hacking off London and the south east.

If a Blair-style Labour opposition came along the Conservatives would be in real trouble, as the sums don’t really add up to a guaranteed majority. I suspect there may be a slight Lib Dem resurgence in some of their former areas next time round, which they can probably achieve without actually having to do much work apart from be the party of protest.
 

Purple Train

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Am I the only person who sees parallels between the government's attitude to this, and the government's attitude towards strike negotiations?

Either way, I bet Shapps will claim that the government made a solid offer, that it's all Labour's fault, and that a new Tube line must be built to serve Welwyn Hatfield by 2024 on a budget of £4.50.
I'm going to stick my neck out and say he's a worse Transport Secretary than Mr Grayling...
 

TUC

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Let London services be cut. Even if they reduced by 30% they'd still be much better than the rest of the country.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Am I the only person who sees parallels between the government's attitude to this, and the government's attitude towards strike negotiations?

Either way, I bet Shapps will claim that the government made a solid offer, that it's all Labour's fault, and that a new Tube line must be built to serve Welwyn Hatfield by 2024 on a budget of £4.50.
I'm going to stick my neck out and say he's a worse Transport Secretary than Mr Grayling...
Indeed and the new SoS will have to pause GBR while they reissue the Williams report in the name of the new SoS!
 

Purple Train

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Indeed and the new SoS will have to pause GBR while they reissue the Williams report in the name of the new SoS!
:rolleyes: "Farcical" is the only word I can think of at this stage.
But hey, let's look on the bright side, at least we have a chance of getting a SoS who at least knows the meaning of the word "competent", even if they don't reach the giddy heights.
 

bramling

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I'm not holding my breath for an change of course with Truss at the figurative helm.

Yes it’s amazing just how much damage Johnson has done, not least recruiting one of the worst cabinets we’ve seen. I hope she goes for a break from all this, but won’t be surprised if she doesn’t.
 

railfan99

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The Conservatives still have 21 seats in London, and as they went down to 11 seats in 1997, that would suggest that 10 are losable. That's a reasonably significant chunk of the government's majority

I am a foreigner, and hence will largely not comment, but isn't it true that 'London' (definition?) only has 13 per cent of England's population?

Of course many commuting areas may have large numbers (perhaps not Mon/Fri any more) who travel in and out for work, and others for leisure. But your nation, unlike Australia, has a greater percentage who live oustide capitals. In my country, that's only (almost) true in Queensland.

So politically, London may be less important than one would think.
 

matt_world2004

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I am a foreigner, and hence will largely not comment, but isn't it true that 'London' (definition?) only has 13 per cent of England's population?

Of course many commuting areas may have large numbers (perhaps not Mon/Fri any more) who travel in and out for work, and others for leisure. But your nation, unlike Australia, has a greater percentage who live oustide capitals. In my country, that's only (almost) true in Queensland.

So politically, London may be less important than one would think.
13% of UK's population but 50% of public transport users
 

Wolfie

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Agreed

They aren't bothered and don't have that many seats now and for far less money can bung the money up North and get more seats.
Re your second para while losing more seats down south. Much of the Tory heartlands detest these clowns and really, really object to "bunging money up north".
 

matt_world2004

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With the series of scandals making the Boris Johnson administration looking out of touch with the rest of the country. It would be interesting to see if the blue wall holds. My guess is it won't
 

Dave W

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Yes it’s amazing just how much damage Johnson has done, not least recruiting one of the worst cabinets we’ve seen. I hope she goes for a break from all this, but won’t be surprised if she doesn’t.
Without drifting too far (this does link back to Shapps' job security) - it'll be hard to foresee too many ministerial candidates stepping forward to Truss. Any shrewd member of the parliamentary party will see the next 2 years as a storm to ride out, and they won't want to have their name associated with it. Meanwhile there are a weird hardcore (Old Nadz at Culture) who will probably leave cabinet as a matter of loyalty. And the "old guard" have generally been exposed as ineffectual.

I hate to say it, but Gove has always made a difference at every department he's been secretary of state in (whether you like the policy direction or not) - and in my (not uneducated) view DfT desperately needs some operational pragmatism right now to get the machine moving again.

... So you know Shapps will still be on site at Horseferry Road come September.
 

Mikey C

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Without drifting too far (this does link back to Shapps' job security) - it'll be hard to foresee too many ministerial candidates stepping forward to Truss. Any shrewd member of the parliamentary party will see the next 2 years as a storm to ride out, and they won't want to have their name associated with it. Meanwhile there are a weird hardcore (Old Nadz at Culture) who will probably leave cabinet as a matter of loyalty. And the "old guard" have generally been exposed as ineffectual.

I hate to say it, but Gove has always made a difference at every department he's been secretary of state in (whether you like the policy direction or not) - and in my (not uneducated) view DfT desperately needs some operational pragmatism right now to get the machine moving again.

... So you know Shapps will still be on site at Horseferry Road come September.
Boris sacked Gove to get revenge, a new low. Gove was one of the few cabinet members who actually got things done, as opposed to just sticking out press statements

Re your second para while losing more seats down south. Much of the Tory heartlands detest these clowns and really, really object to "bunging money up north".
Getting very off topic, we live in strange times

The Tories winning elections by appealing to Northern working class voters, Labour gaining ground with middle class voters in the south. It all feels very back to front
 
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