TfW Mk4 Diagrams?

[Caaardiff]

The plan is for the extra sets to be used Cardiff to Manchester eventually, then there's less extra traincrew training needed.
Cardiff & Crewe drivers can cover that work, there's no plans for More depots learning them but plans can change.

It will be Swansea to Manchester.

 

[asdirective]

The plan is for the extra sets to be used Cardiff to Manchester eventually, then there's less extra traincrew training needed.
Cardiff & Crewe drivers can cover that work, there's no plans for More depots learning them but plans can change.

There will have to be extra training of some kind. Whilst drivers duties can be covered by existing depots, guards can not. Crewe-Manchester is only signed by Crewe guards, who currently are not planned to sign Mk4 stock. Shrewsbury/Cardiff guards sign Mk4 stock (in training currently), but do not sign the route past Crewe.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The previous plan was just 2 sets out Monday to Friday and spare at weekends or used occasionally for crowd busters on busy seasonal dates/sports extras.

Really? My hope when it was annouced that TfW would be getting 3 mark 4 sets was that at least two of the three Cardiff-Holyhead LHCS services each way would run 7 days per week. Was it really only going to be weekdays still?

It will be Swansea to Manchester.

I hope that is true, and that the rest of the timetable will be pairs of 175s on Swansea-Manchester.

 

[Caaardiff]

I hope that is true, and that the rest of the timetable will be pairs of 175s on Swansea-Manchester.

Not a chance of pairs of 175's of Marches anytime soon. There simply isn't the fleet availability. 3 cars 175's are sufficient for now.
It will of course mean a re-do of the Cardiff/Swansea - Milford Haven services that the Mk4's will be on.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Not a chance of pairs of 175's of Marches anytime soon. There simply isn't the fleet availability. 3 cars 175's are sufficient for now.
It will of course mean a re-do of the Cardiff/Swansea - Milford Haven services that the Mk4's will be on.

I didn't mean soon; I'm not expecting the extra mark 4s (assuming they are confirmed now?) anytime soon either - they will need mods to work with 67s and possibly more 67s will need mods too and then crews will need training etc. By then the stopping services from Manchester/Liverpool to Llandudno will probably be in the hands of 197s which will free up some 175s as would having mark 4s on some of the Manchester-Swansea services. There would be enough 175s to pair some of them up then, keep 158s on the Cambrian and most of the long distance stuff wouldn't have to suffer 197s anymore.

 

[craigybagel]

The plan is for the extra sets to be used Cardiff to Manchester eventually, then there's less extra traincrew training needed.
Cardiff & Crewe drivers can cover that work, there's no plans for More depots learning them but plans can change.

It will be Swansea to Manchester.

That is indeed what I'm hearing too, just again I wasn't going to share until it was more public knowledge!

There will have to be extra training of some kind. Whilst drivers duties can be covered by existing depots, guards can not. Crewe-Manchester is only signed by Crewe guards, who currently are not planned to sign Mk4 stock. Shrewsbury/Cardiff guards sign Mk4 stock (in training currently), but do not sign the route past Crewe.

Whilst this is true, it's only a 3 day course for guards, regardless of whether they have LHCS experience or not. For drivers who didn't already sign MKIIIs and 67s it's a 3 week course.

That said, with the number of services being discussed I'm not convinced the current link of loco trained drivers (27) at Crewe will be large enough, so I suspect that there may still need to be some extra drivers trained - just not as many as with some of the other options being bandied about.

Not a chance of pairs of 175's of Marches anytime soon. There simply isn't the fleet availability. 3 cars 175's are sufficient for now.
It will of course mean a re-do of the Cardiff/Swansea - Milford Haven services that the Mk4's will be on.

Also anything longer than 4 car on the Marches gets very messy with platform lengths. The MKIVs are getting SDO retrofitted, and the 197s will have it from day one, but 175s don't have it, and it's hard to see TFW forking out on that when they don't have long left with the franchise.

I didn't mean soon; I'm not expecting the extra mark 4s (assuming they are confirmed now?) anytime soon either - they will need mods to work with 67s and possibly more 67s will need mods too and then crews will need training etc. By then the stopping services from Manchester/Liverpool to Llandudno will probably be in the hands of 197s which will free up some 175s as would having mark 4s on some of the Manchester-Swansea services. There would be enough 175s to pair some of them up then, keep 158s on the Cambrian and most of the long distance stuff wouldn't have to suffer 197s anymore.

At the risk of being accused of back seat moderating, could you please keep your CAF rants to the dedicated thread?

All I will say in reply to this that's relevant to the MKIVs is that the procuring of extra sets makes it even less likely that the 175s will be staying. 7 5 car MKIV rakes plus the large fleet of 197s will be great for capacity all across the TfW network. It will be transformational.

 

[Rhydgaled]

At the risk of being accused of back seat moderating, could you please keep your CAF rants to the dedicated thread?

It's not a CAF rant, it's a suburbanisation and diesel perpetuation rant. I have nothing against the 397s (on paper; I've not tried them out) except the Fainsa seats.

 

[Envoy]

So it appears that they are having a re-think about the re-cast of services being as the extra loco hauled sets will be taken on by TfW. Wonder where they will send the 197’s that will not now operate on some Swansea to Manchesters? Perhaps they could work Cheltenham to west Wales via the Swansea District Line & serve a north Swansea Parkway near Morriston? What would they then do with the Flirts meant for the Lydney route? All very interesting and a huge capacity increase.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is for discussion of the actual TfW Mark 4 diagrams. If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread in the appropriate forum section.

 

[sd0733]

The first Mk4 set is due into service on June 7th. Operating the original out and back mk3 diagram, 05:33 Holyhead to Cardiff and 17:16 return

 

[Matt1991]

Just looking at some trains to Manchester tomorrow and the 1H91 1650 Chester to Manchester and 1853 Manchester to Chester appear to be a VVR diagram for tomorrow only and show to be have first and standard seating. I wonder if this is a error or a test passenger run for the Mark 4’s?!

 

[PHILIPE]

Just looking at some trains to Manchester tomorrow and the 1H91 1650 Chester to Manchester and 1853 Manchester to Chester appear to be a VVR diagram for tomorrow only and show to be have first and standard seating. I wonder if this is a error or a test passenger run for the Mark 4’s?!

There is a change to it but I think they have selected the wrong spec in error. It is only going to Manchester Picc instead of the Airport due to "Resource Availability". This has been happening on occasions since all the trains were extended to the Airport and if the driver hadn't yet attained route knowledge for the extension.
Information found in TFW Journey Check.

 

[craigybagel]

Just looking at some trains to Manchester tomorrow and the 1H91 1650 Chester to Manchester and 1853 Manchester to Chester appear to be a VVR diagram for tomorrow only and show to be have first and standard seating. I wonder if this is a error or a test passenger run for the Mark 4’s?!

There is a change to it but I think they have selected the wrong spec in error. It is only going to Manchester Picc instead of the Airport due to "Resource Availability". This has been happening on occasions since all the trains were extended to the Airport and if the driver hadn't yet attained route knowledge for the extension.
Information found in TFW Journey Check.

It'll be an error, don't get your hopes up.

This also gives a good example as to why TfW can't just run more trains when things get busy in the summer (as has been asked about on other threads). There are still drivers that need releasing from their normal duties to learn Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Airport, but it's a lot harder to do and takes a lot longer to learn to get lots of drivers trained up then it would do outside of Covid.

 

[PHILIPE]

The following are operating from Monday next, June 7th

www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V20338/2021-06-08/detailed
www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V20339/2021-06-08/detailed

 

[ABB125]

The following are operating from Monday next, June 8th

www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V20338/2021-06-08/detailed
www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V20339/2021-06-08/detailed

Thanks - no use to me unfortunately!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Sunday services are expected to be dramatically increased so I would be very surprised if the current (non Covid) 2 per day Cardiff - Holyhead Sunday service won't be increased, regardless of whether or not they extra MKIVs go on that route. There won't be any point in acquiring these extra sets if they don't get used on weekends; without doing that, they won't be releasing units for other routes.

One of the problems on Sundays (as I understand it) is the manning of the manual boxes on the route, early and late.
Sunday services are also currently focussed on Crewe, as they were pre-ATW.
There's also a late start on Sundays for VT services for Chester/North Wales.

The Mk4 services starting on Monday 7 June are very welcome, but they will presumably operate as ghost trains between Shrewsbury and Cardiff?
They operate as Holyhead-Shrewsbury services until September according to the current timetable.
They will be the first through services Holyhead-Cardiff for 15 months.

 

[craigybagel]

One of the problems on Sundays (as I understand it) is the manning of the manual boxes on the route, early and late.
Sunday services are also currently focussed on Crewe, as they were pre-ATW.
There's also a late start on Sundays for VT services for Chester/North Wales.

The Mk4 services starting on Monday 7 June are very welcome, but they will presumably operate as ghost trains between Shrewsbury and Cardiff?
They operate as Holyhead-Shrewsbury services until September according to the current timetable.
They will be the first through services Holyhead-Cardiff for 15 months.

I'm open to correction but my understanding was it was only the boxes on the Llandudno branch that were an issue. In any case with most of the coast line resignalled there aren't any where near as many mechanical boxes as there was when the current Sunday timetable was first created. I wouldn't read anything into how the current timetable focuses on Crewe on a Sunday - the whole thing is due for a recast after all.

The MKIVs will be running in passenger service all the way between Holyhead and Cardiff and return from Monday, in the paths listed above. I'm not sure where this talk of Shrewsbury - Holyhead only came from (though I know several people on this forum have discussed it) but next week's introduction at least is on the full route.

 

[Caaardiff]

The Mk4 services starting on Monday 7 June are very welcome, but they will presumably operate as ghost trains between Shrewsbury and Cardiff?
They operate as Holyhead-Shrewsbury services until September according to the current timetable.
They will be the first through services Holyhead-Cardiff for 15 months.

It's available for Monday - Friday next week, but not after that. I imagine it will be made available on a week by week basis at the start then on a more permanent basis after next timetable change.

There have been direct Cardiff-Holyhead & return, but only on a Sunday. No idea why.

 

[craigybagel]

It's available for Monday - Friday next week, but not after that. I imagine it will be made available on a week by week basis at the start then on a more permanent basis after next timetable change.

The relevant traincrew links have been permanently amended from next week to include these services, which suggests it's already a more long term thing then for just one week.

 

[PHILIPE]

It's available for Monday - Friday next week, but not after that. I imagine it will be made available on a week by week basis at the start then on a more permanent basis after next timetable change.

There have been direct Cardiff-Holyhead & return, but only on a Sunday. No idea why.

They have been cut back to Shrewsbury as we know due to the COVID Timetable but the Sunday Timetable is the normal one. STP are usually done on a weekly basis.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Confirming the weekly plans, the Mk4 services in the "Gerald" times are now bookable on the TfW site for Monday June 7, but not for June 14.
So not ghost services, just a little erratic.
The TfW booking notes say the journey "may be a coach", but presumably that is a generic warning!
No Advance tickets available.

 

[Welshman]

Will a meal service still be available, as it was pre-covid?

 

[TrainTrackJack]

So 67010 went up the marches today, originally booked for Cardiff - Holyhead, 5J41. However, it went as 1J41 from Cardiff - Hereford, thus becoming 5J41. Did this run as a publicly advertised service? If it did, was that the first public diagram?

 

[craigybagel]

So 67010 went up the marches today, originally booked for Cardiff - Holyhead, 5J41. However, it went as 1J41 from Cardiff - Hereford, thus becoming 5J41. Did this run as a publicly advertised service? If it did, was that the first public diagram?

It has run as a class 1 in the past with invited stakeholders onboard, it may well have been something along those lines again today.

Will a meal service still be available, as it was pre-covid?

Not at first.

 

[47827]

The big incentive, from an "internal" point of view, to stick to the weekday return run starting next week is that dozens of staff (I'm guessing from tfw staff posting) have undergone their training in full now to convert to mk4/mk4 dvt operation and drivers refreshed on 67s too so it'll only go to waste if the start dates were needlessly pushed back much longer. With it being so few services operated by them to start off and for drivers the loco and dvt handling split into 1 service each it means you have to try and provide those 10 trains per week booked for 67s from next week to prevent that wasted training and then be back to square one. If the training had able to be finished back in late 2019 we would probably have seen mk4s running over most of the last year, even if only on the original diagram (as per next week) to keep competency up and prevent the scenario things are now in. Nobody had the crystal ball to see the first 15 months off all this though and sadly training continuing did clash with covid times, which is far from over in the eyes of the First Minister of Wales today (even if England was somewhat more optimistic until the latest few hurdles).

 

[Envoy]

Can anybody explain why from Newport it has 280 tonnes but from Abergavenny only 140 tonnes on the northbound trip?

Realtime Trains - 1W96 1712 Cardiff Central to Holyhead

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[PHILIPE]

Can anybody explain why from Newport it has 280 tonnes but from Abergavenny only 140 tonnes on the northbound trip?

Realtime Trains - 1W96 1712 Cardiff Central to Holyhead

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This is the Timing Load (internal use) that is used for the route and not the actual weight of the train itself. It is, you might say, a formula to determine the timing of the train according to the type of traction and line speed.

 

[peteb]

The rake of mk ivs was sitting in the siding opposite McDonalds at Hollyhead yesterday at 1300hrs. The loco was on the depot. So assume in readiness for Mondays train?

 

[47827]

The rake of mk ivs was sitting in the siding opposite McDonalds at Hollyhead yesterday at 1300hrs. The loco was on the depot. So assume in readiness for Mondays train?

Usually takes the stock onto the fueller with it as it fits WC voyagers too so saves unhooking the loco which is now reserved for emergencies and maintenance swaps. This was common over the last year with training sets every few runs for the 67 to have a drink.

 

[craigybagel]

The big incentive, from an "internal" point of view, to stick to the weekday return run starting next week is that dozens of staff (I'm guessing from tfw staff posting) have undergone their training in full now to convert to mk4/mk4 dvt operation and drivers refreshed on 67s too so it'll only go to waste if the start dates were needlessly pushed back much longer. With it being so few services operated by them to start off and for drivers the loco and dvt handling split into 1 service each it means you have to try and provide those 10 trains per week booked for 67s from next week to prevent that wasted training and then be back to square one. If the training had able to be finished back in late 2019 we would probably have seen mk4s running over most of the last year, even if only on the original diagram (as per next week) to keep competency up and prevent the scenario things are now in. Nobody had the crystal ball to see the first 15 months off all this though and sadly training continuing did clash with covid times, which is far from over in the eyes of the First Minister of Wales today (even if England was somewhat more optimistic until the latest few hurdles).

I believe there's something in this alright. It's notable that the two services have been diagrammed in such a way that all 3 depots (Holyhead, Crewe and Cardiff drivers, Holyhead, Shrewsbury and Cardiff conductors) get at least one job per day (2 in the case of Holyhead). There's also going to be a weekly ECS swap of sets between Crewe and Holyhead on a Saturday, which amongst other things will help keep the Crewe and Shrewsbury crews involved competent on prepping the stock for service (during the week Holyhead will prep the morning service and Cardiff the evening) which is a lot more complicated than with DMUs.

The rake of mk ivs was sitting in the siding opposite McDonalds at Hollyhead yesterday at 1300hrs. The loco was on the depot. So assume in readiness for Mondays train?

Usually takes the stock onto the fueller with it as it fits WC voyagers too so saves unhooking the loco which is now reserved for emergencies and maintenance swaps. This was common over the last year with training sets every few runs for the 67 to have a drink.

In Holyhead over the past few weeks there has been training of drivers from scratch on the MKIVs and 67s (as in drivers who didn't previously sign the 67s and MKIIIs). This involves a large amount of work just on the 67 so it may well be that things have changed from the usual pattern because of that.