Thameslink ‘Core’ major disruption (04/04)

[43066]

The offending train came from Smithfield sidings. As did the last two to have done this. Hence why it’s not picked up by the auto Changeover.

A little odd the pan was raised at all as (AFAIK) DC still extends into the sidings?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That would make sense. Seems like there should be better operational instructions and signage (+ reminders) coming out of Smithfield then to not raise the pantograph as it is occurring issue.

If you have to come out on DC why would you put up the pan?

Whatever the cause its about time between NR and Thameslink there was a robust arrangements in place to prevent it.

There also needs to better contingency arrangements in place when this happens as all Thameslink do is pretty well suspend every service group leaving dozens of stations devoid of a service.

 

[Horizon22]

If you have to come out on DC why would you put up the pan?

Whatever the cause its about time between NR and Thameslink there was a robust arrangements in place to prevent it.

There also needs to better contingency arrangements in place when this happens as all Thameslink do is pretty well suspend every service group leaving dozens of stations devoid of a service.

It will be part of driver setup I imagine normally - driver has gone into "automatic mode" and put the pan up when they shouldn't have. Hence the need for more robust signage and reminders when coming out of Smithfield. It's all about situational awareness.

 

[43066]

Whatever the cause its about time between NR and Thameslink there was a robust arrangements in place to prevent it.

There also needs to better contingency arrangements in place when this happens as all Thameslink do is pretty well suspend every service group leaving dozens of stations devoid of a service.

It rarely happens and there are systems to prevent it as explained upthread- clearly something went wrong on this occasion - that’s life!

Ultimately if the core is blocked for any reason it will have a massive impact on the service. That’s a drawback of having almost all the GTR services pushed through the TL core.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It rarely happens and there are systems to prevent it as explained upthread- clearly something went wrong in this occasion - that’s life!

Ultimately if the core is blocked for any reason it will have a massive impact on the service. That’s a drawback of having almost all the GTR services pushed through the TL core.

Well its happened twice in the last 12 months and whilst its low probability its impact is very high which is why there should be a robust contingency plan that keeps trains moving to alternative destinations. TLK telling people to use LNWR to MKC for a service to Bedford is just farcical they should be turning the service around at Kentish Town even if it has to be thinned. The railway says its putting the passenger first but it isn't.

 

[43055]

5V55 (offending train) has moved into Blackfriars on the OpenTrainTimes map.

MML side seems to be running a all stations shuttle service between St Pancras (high level) and Bedford every 30 mins

ECML side seems to be running the Peterborough services into Kings Cross

 

[Silver Cobra]

To add further complications to this disruption, there are additional problems both to the north and south of the Thameslink Core. To the north, services are running at reduced speed between Alexandra Palace and Potters Bar due to reports of trespassers, while to the south there are delays around East Croydon due to a fault on a train.

Not a good day for Thameslink today, it seems...

 

[Horizon22]

Well its happened twice in the last 12 months and whilst its low probability its impact is very high which is why there should be a robust contingency plan that keeps trains moving to alternative destinations. TLK telling people to use LNWR to MKC for a service to Bedford is just farcical they should be turning the service around at Kentish Town even if it has to be thinned. The railway says its putting the passenger first but it isn't.

There will almost certainly already be contingency control plans in place for an unplanned closure of the Core. It will be a rather dramatic reduction of service though given the ability to turn trains at St Pancras, Kentish Town, London Bridge or Blackfriars is limited. It does appear there have been other issues on the network which have compounded the implementation of this though.

 

[43066]

Well its happened twice in the last 12 months and whilst its low probability its impact is very high which is why there should be a robust contingency plan that keeps trains moving to alternative destinations. TLK telling people to use LNWR to MKC for a service to Bedford is just farcical they should be turning the service around at Kentish Town even if it has to be thinned. The railway says its putting the passenger first but it isn't.

This just sounds like moaning for the sake of it and FYI I’m an almost daily commuter on GTR.

What’s farcical about ticket acceptance on other TOCs? Bedford stoppers are being turned at Pancras High Level (limited space in there due to EMR’s operations) - both are examples of contingency plans. There is no ability to prevent major disruption if the core is blocked, no amount of contingency planning will ever change that given the intensity of the service. It’s just an inherent limitation of the infrastructure - what are they supposed to do?! magic up extra tunnels under central London to run trains through!?

It’s easy to moan, I guarantee if you were making the decisions you wouldn’t be able to do any better…

 

[westcoaster]

There is rigid bar all the way out of the tunnel (dead) to stop the pan strikes, the issue it the cross over is not wired.

 

[Efini92]

Those date back to the 319s which also played an audible alarm in the cab at Farringdon to remind drivers to lower the pan!

Didn’t the driver also have to press a button to acknowledge the alarm?

 

[zwk500]

There is rigid bar all the way out of the tunnel (dead) to stop the pan strikes, the issue it the cross over is not wired.

Is it feasible to put a pair of dead rigid bars across the scissors to reduce the risk of incidents like this?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

This just sounds like moaning for the sake of it and FYI I’m an almost daily commuter on GTR.

What’s farcical about ticket acceptance on other TOCs? Bedford stoppers are being turned at Pancras High Level (limited space in there due to EMR’s operations) - both are examples of contingency plans. There is no ability to prevent major disruption if the core is blocked, no amount of contingency planning will ever change that given the intensity of the service. It’s just an inherent limitation of the infrastructure - what are they supposed to do?! magic up extra tunnels under central London to run trains through!?

It’s easy to moan, I guarantee if you were making the decisions you wouldn’t be able to do any better…

I've been regular user of Thameslink services since 2018 as they are the only service provider at my station and 99% of the time im delighted with what they deliver will even stomach the seats! However, when the core has an incident, its not just when a pan is ripped off there have been other issues over the years, the contingency arrangements remain sub optimal give the large amount of capacity that Thameslink services now provide. For instance London Bridge Central side could be use to provide at least two half hourly paths and more like four given the limited use it gets but its not.

I get STP HL is already severely constrained but Kentish Town is setup to turn around trains so why not use that.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Having investigated , and even got involved in a few of these "incidents" in the past - it is the abandonment of the Sutton loop services and in particular the Sevenoaks services that caused grief in the past. After all - people do need to get home , and yes I know about the issues with drivers and stock balances etc.

West Hampstead nowadays is a much better "emergency" bolthole than it was. (assuming trains turn at Kentish Town) .....

Seems encouraging that EMT seem to be taking on some ticket acceptances as far as Bedford.

 

[43066]

Didn’t the driver also have to press a button to acknowledge the alarm?

Yes that’s right. The alarm buzzer continued to sound until it was cancelled. It was often possible to actually view the pan dropping in the platform monitors, or else jumping out of the cab to visually check was recommended in poor light (no roof mounted pan-spotlights on 319s!).

Not a totally infallible system of course as the process of cancelling the alarm at that location became quite routine. AIUI this was why the changeover has always been done at Farringdon heading south, essentially giving you another chance if it’s forgotten for any reason.

I've been regular user of Thameslink services since 2018 as they are the only service provider at my station and 99% of the time im delighted with what they deliver will even stomach the seats! However, when the core has an incident, its not just when a pan is ripped off there have been other issues over the years, the contingency arrangements remain sub optimal give the large amount of capacity that Thameslink services now provide. For instance London Bridge Central side could be use to provide at least two half hourly paths and more like four given the limited use it gets but its not.

I get STP HL is already severely constrained but Kentish Town is setup to turn around trains so why not use that.

Fair enough. And apologies on reflection my previous response is rather more bad tempered sounding than I intended!

I think really it’s because KT isn’t well connect so isn’t actually a particularly useful place to leave/pick up people. Especially at this time of day when the southbound MML services are a lot quieter than those heading northbound out of town. The immediate priority is really getting trains into stations and not moving them until they can be platformed elsewhere. This at least prevents standings and gives people other options.

Getting some 700s into Pancras HL even if only every half hour will be a lot more beneficial for crowd busting due to the sheer numbers converging on StP from the Tube.

There may well be other reasons.

 

[westcoaster]

I've been regular user of Thameslink services since 2018 as they are the only service provider at my station and 99% of the time im delighted with what they deliver will even stomach the seats! However, when the core has an incident, its not just when a pan is ripped off there have been other issues over the years, the contingency arrangements remain sub optimal give the large amount of capacity that Thameslink services now provide. For instance London Bridge Central side could be use to provide at least two half hourly paths and more like four given the limited use it gets but its not.

I get STP HL is already severely constrained but Kentish Town is setup to turn around trains so why not use that.

You can not turn an FLU at Kentish town. There is no step free access or lifts. Easier to continue the last mile or so to St Pancras.

 

[Magdalia]

I get STP HL is already severely constrained but Kentish Town is setup to turn around trains so why not use that.

Narrow entrance to the Thameslink platforms from the small concourse.
Narrow walkway on the footbridge.
Narrow long and steep stairways to the platforms.
No lifts.

West Hampstead nowadays is a much better "emergency" bolthole than it was. (assuming trains turn at Kentish Town)

I agree. Since the new footbridge was built West Hampstead Thameslink has none of the disadvantages listed above for Kentish Town.

 

[westcoaster]

Is it feasible to put a pair of dead rigid bars across the scissors to reduce the risk of incidents like this?

You would hope. Lots of wires and transitions and counterweights to deal with.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

You can not turn an FLU at Kentish town. There is no step free access or lifts. Easier to continue the last mile or so to St Pancras.

OK thats interesting fact and really ought to have been part of the original scheme although I see another poster suggest West Hampstead Thameslink is a better location to turn the trains.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I've been regular user of Thameslink services since 2018 as they are the only service provider at my station and 99% of the time im delighted with what they deliver will even stomach the seats! However, when the core has an incident, its not just when a pan is ripped off there have been other issues over the years, the contingency arrangements remain sub optimal give the large amount of capacity that Thameslink services now provide. For instance London Bridge Central side could be use to provide at least two half hourly paths and more like four given the limited use it gets but its not.

I get STP HL is already severely constrained but Kentish Town is setup to turn around trains so why not use that.

But Thameslink were turning some trains at London Bridge. So I don't really understand your point.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

But Thameslink were turning some trains at London Bridge. So I don't really understand your point.

No sign of any 9Jxx at London Bridge. They are now running a Redhill to Horsham service which then means you have to swap to into a 4 car SN VIC service.

Anyhow no surprise to see TLK have now amended 2000 time for service to resumption to end of service.

 

[Magdalia]

Well its happened twice in the last 12 months and whilst its low probability its impact is very high which is why there should be a robust contingency plan that keeps trains moving to alternative destinations. The railway says its putting the passenger first but it isn't.

The railway still does not get this! A block in the Thameslink core should be treated as the railway equivalent of a nuclear meltdown.

Not only should there be a robust contingency plan, but it should be practiced on a regular basis, using simulations.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

No sign of any 9Jxx at London Bridge. They are now running a Redhill to Horsham service which then means you have to swap to into a 4 car SN VIC service.

Anyhow no surprise to see TLK have now amended 2000 time for service to resumption to end of service.

There were two 9Jxx which started from London Bridge, admittedly not many but they aren't just binning everything off.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There were two 9Jxx which started from London Bridge, admittedly not many but they aren't just binning everything off.

They were 9Jxx in play by the looks of it but no other 9Jxx has been there for a while

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Narrow entrance to the Thameslink platforms from the small concourse.
Narrow walkway on the footbridge.
Narrow long and steep stairways to the platforms.
No lifts.


I agree. Since the new footbridge was built West Hampstead Thameslink has none of the disadvantages listed above for Kentish Town.

Hugely better than it was - also staffed to an extent - and canny users can work around the JLE and of course the Overground , buses - plus good street services around.

(I recall a nightmare issue back in the early 1990's when the whole service was turned there , - all day - including the MML (IRA issue) - with very few facilties etc - so I plucked up the courage and got the Metropolitan Police - then up the road to help out - which was a lifesaver , there was me and another helpful railway staff on his way to work) .....

 

[philthetube]

Speaking with no knowledge of the area or layout but would it be possible to modify the trains so that they cannot take power when provided from 2 sources, and would this have prevented the incident?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Speaking with no knowledge of the area or layout but would it be possible to modify the trains so that they cannot take power when provided from 2 sources, and would this have prevented the incident?

Even the long in the tooth 313's had this facility - trust me - it did not always work to advantage.

 

[liamf656]

MML side seems to be running a all stations shuttle service between St Pancras (high level) and Bedford every 30 mins

You know things have gone pear shaped when you arrive to find 700s upstairs!

The MML platforms were extremely busy this evening and some 4 car 360s had departed completely rammed. Tickets dated today can now be used tomorrow if needed

 

[choochoochoo]

Even the long in the tooth 313's had this facility - trust me - it did not always work to advantage.

As I mentioned earlier, why not have an APC on the approach to the station. Just like at Drayton Park. You can't take power again without re-setting the VCB then. And if that doesn't jog your memory that you've forgotten to do something then what will ?

 

[Bald Rick]

Speaking with no knowledge of the area or layout but would it be possible to modify the trains so that they cannot take power when provided from 2 sources, and would this have prevented the incident?

that wouldn’t be very helpful when pulling into Farringdon on the AC….

As I mentioned earlier, why not have an APC on the approach to the station. Just like at Drayton Park. You can't take power again without re-setting the VCB then. And if that doesn't jog your memory that you've forgotten to do something then what will ?

there is, albeit the balise equivalent, at Farringdon. Bear in mind that sometimes you need to do the southbound power change over at City.