Thameslink and Southern timetable reduction from 26th July 2021

[Robertj21a]

Bedford to Brighton!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My folks live in Flitwick and even every 15 mins off peak there rammed London-Bedford

Still rammed now, even with so many WFH?
In any event, it's only revised timings for many, hardly the biggest hurdle in the circumstances.

 

[Watershed]

The first of several operators that are likely to follow suit, I'm afraid.

The government needs to bring forward the 16 August self-isolation exemption date. The rail network is going to descend into chaos otherwise.

 

[Failed Unit]

The first of several operators that are likely to follow suit, I'm afraid.

The government needs to bring forward the 16 August self-isolation exemption date. The rail network is going to descend into chaos otherwise.

Already seen it recently. EMRs revised timetable was supposed to help with staff training. I suspect it is helping with Covid pings now with staff training not as high on the agenda.
Northern bused a significant part of their network at the weekend.
I guess many operators are short of the full timetable and way (such as great northern)

 

[johncrossley]

Isn't Brighton to Bedford every 30 minutes anyway? No mention of Brighton to Cambridge, suggesting that there are still 4 trains per hour from Brighton to the core.

 

[Watershed]

Northern bused a significant part of their network at the weekend

Yep and reports of them looking for 90 buses for the Sheffield area this weekend. There are no engineering works...

 

[AM9]

Isn't Brighton to Bedford every 30 minutes anyway? No mention of Brighton to Cambridge, suggesting that there are still 4 trains per hour from Brighton to the core.

Brighton to Bedford is normally 2ph interleaved with 2tph Gatwick to Bedford.

 

[Failed Unit]

Isn't Brighton to Bedford every 30 minutes anyway? No mention of Brighton to Cambridge, suggesting that there are still 4 trains per hour from Brighton to the core.

That seems to be the case.
Luton & Bedford still have EMR as well to give 4tph. However appreciate that doesn’t help the smaller stations.

 

[johncrossley]

The Brighton line seems to have done well out of Covid, because of the scrapping of the Gatwick Express. There are now up to 10 trains per hour off-peak hours between Haywards Heath and London, 4 Thameslink and 4 to 6 Southern to Victoria, which doesn't get any cuts from Monday.

 

[Bishopstone]

The Brighton line seems to have done well out of Covid, because of the scrapping of the Gatwick Express. There are now up to 10 trains per hour off-peak hours between Haywards Heath and London, 4 Thameslink and 4 to 6 Southern to Victoria, which doesn't get any cuts from Monday.

Coastway non-London services, however, are already on a Sunday-ish timetable: before ad hoc cancellations.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Ianno87 explained - the Bedford to Gatwick train gets to Gatwick at the same time as the Bedford to Brighton train so its loss doesn't really matter in terms of journey time to anyone apart from passengers on the Redhill corridor.

Ah - I'd never noticed that before! Indeed just picking a random two trains this morning, the Brighton train that leave Bedford 15 minutes later, arrives at Gatwick 5 minutes earlier!

Steve White of GTR tweeted that they had 400 staff affected by the ‘Pingdemic’ as of the Sunday just gone, which gives an idea as to the strains on staffing levels at the moment.

Most of whom will have completed their (up to) 10 days' isolation by next Monday (though of course more will have been pinged before then).

Still rammed now, even with so many WFH?
In any event, it's only revised timings for many, hardly the biggest hurdle in the circumstances.

My experience of weekends - when trains are usually already down to 2tph between Bedford and London - is that, yes, trains are busy (if not "rammed". No-one standing, but only individual free seats dotted around.) That was before "freedom day".

 

[Aictos]

No other operator serves Birkbeck to my knowledge.

The Thameslink website says about a bus between Crystal Palace and Dulwich so I assume no other TOCs serve that route.

Umm the Birkbeck to Beckenham Junction route is served by the Croydon Tramlink so there is a alterative.

The Thameslink website says about a bus between Crystal Palace and Dulwich so I assume no other TOCs serve that route.

Actually Google Maps states that you can use the London Overground from Crystal Palace to Forest Hill then you can pick up the 185 bus service (Destination London Victoria) to East Dulwich.

Thameslink loop - never TL's highest priority - no alternative service (but only reduced by 50%, and going the long way round the loop is an option)

Yet there are plenty of alternatives such as London Buses, London Underground, Uber etc, just because there isn't a rail service doesn't mean there isn't a viable alterative service.

Bedford to Brighton!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My folks live in Flitwick and even every 15 mins off peak there rammed London-Bedford

Not my experience, I've yet to encounter any London to Bedford train rammed off peak between Bedford and St Albans and as the trains start from Bedford it's very very unlikely to be rammed at that point, I have a weekly commute in the peak and while I have observed some people standing it's mostly when there's been disruption. To say it's rammed off peak is misleading especially when most trains on the Bedford route are formed of 12 coaches.

Those trains certainly are not rammed at St Albans City in either direction. Got off one maybe 40 mins ago and it was nicely busy but not rammed at all.

Agreed, the only train I've been on in the last 6 weeks that could be described as very very busy was a Rainham bound service as it was stopping at all stations from St Albans to London due to the Sutton services being cancelled other then that, unless there is disruption of any form I have yet to experience anything as the poster you have quoted.

It’s over 400 drivers that are off. And of course the situation varies by depot, which is why some routes get hit harder than others.

This isn’t the only TOC in this position either, expect more to follow.

Don't forget that some depots are having jobs uncovered because drivers who would have been available have moved to other depots, indeed speaking to a driver last week they stated that last week and this week there was 8 jobs uncovered and that's from one driver depot.

Still rammed now, even with so many WFH?
In any event, it's only revised timings for many, hardly the biggest hurdle in the circumstances.

As I have stated and as @ChiefPlanner have stated, those trains may be getting busier but they are in no way can be described as rammed, to say they are is a liberal use of fiction.

Isn't Brighton to Bedford every 30 minutes anyway? No mention of Brighton to Cambridge, suggesting that there are still 4 trains per hour from Brighton to the core.

Bedford to Brighton is every 30 minutes but you need to bear in mind that while Real Train Times does not yet show the amended service from the 26th July, those changes will or should be updated on the 25th July.

 

[AM9]

... My experience of weekends - when trains are usually already down to 2tph between Bedford and London - is that, yes, trains are busy (if not "rammed". No-one standing, but only individual free seats dotted around.) That was before "freedom day".

It's amazing that before COVID-19, a train that had spare seats was considered normal, whereas that same level of occupancy is now considered by some to be 'rammed' (I presume that the poster means rammed full) which is a term normally inferring crush loading. Now crush loading of a class 700/0 is in excess of 1146 and in a class 700/1 it's 1754! Mmmm, I don't think so.

 

[johncrossley]

Why don't they cut the Brighton Main Line? Has patronage on line recovered more than on other lines?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It’s over 400 drivers that are off. And of course the situation varies by depot, which is why some routes get hit harder than others.

This isn’t the only TOC in this position either, expect more to follow.

Inevitable consequence with the current wave of cases and knock impact to self isolate. However, the government has indicated that it will review exemptions for certain groups of workers and i would have thought that as drivers are in the cab on there own largely they would achieve exemption far easier than other groups. So i do hope the hapless RDG are right now making the case to Dept of BEIS/Transport (oh there on summer recess!)

 

[Ianno87]

Why don't they cut the Brighton Main Line? Has patronage on line recovered more than on other lines?

Check out how busy trains to Brighton are on a sunny day...

Meanwhile air travel demand is still low, so not much point in trains that only go to Gatwick.

 

[JonathanH]

Check out how busy trains to Brighton are on a sunny day...

Meanwhile air travel demand is still low, so not much point in trains that only go to Gatwick.

...and we have discussed they only really make any difference on the Redhill corridor.

(Even then, as a traveller from Redhill, I always consider the Bedford service inferior to the Peterborough one, even though they use the same trains).

 

[OliverH68]

Check out how busy trains to Brighton are on a sunny day...

Meanwhile air travel demand is still low, so not much point in trains that only go to Gatwick.

Unless you're coming from north of London Bridge and require Purley which only gets 2 TL trains an hour...

 

[baz962]

I use the Thameslink trains almost daily from Bedford to west Hampstead/ st pancras and back. Some v busy one's , although not pre covid busy. Can be v busy on sunny days as alluded to above and taking travellers home after a night out in London.

 

[OFFDN]

Important to remember network operations/control/trainplanning teams behind the scenes slogging away at getting plans together that will actually work with the resources that are available … whether theyre suitable for passenger demand or liked by passengers or not. Hidden heros of the railway that many take for granted

 

[Aictos]

Unless you're coming from north of London Bridge and require Purley which only gets 2 TL trains an hour...

You can always change for a Southern service at London Bridge or East Croydon though....

 

[Joe Paxton]

Inevitable consequence with the current wave of cases and knock impact to self isolate. However, the government has indicated that it will review exemptions for certain groups of workers and i would have thought that as drivers are in the cab on there own largely they would achieve exemption far easier than other groups. So i do hope the hapless RDG are right now making the case to Dept of BEIS/Transport (oh they're on summer recess!)

MPs are, but that doesn't mean ministers are, not do government departments just shut down for the whole summer!

Regarding hapless protagonists - from what I've heard and read, the government's proposed isolation exemptions policy is itself somewhat all over the place!

I’d say it’s likely to be because of the combination of summer holidays starting, underlying shortages of drivers, and of course the current issue of people being pinged.

Given how Bedford has had 4tph for very many years, and consistently been able to fill them, I’d say it wouldn’t be an obvious choice for economy-led cuts. Binning the Gatwick part seems logical with airport traffic still well down.

At the end of the day it is preferable to have planned cancellations, rather than chaos on the day, with all the service management staff having to work like mad sorting it all out.

Agreed. This is the far better course of action.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

...and we have discussed they only really make any difference on the Redhill corridor.

(Even then, as a traveller from Redhill, I always consider the Bedford service inferior to the Peterborough one, even though they use the same trains).

Check out how busy trains to Brighton are on a sunny day...

Meanwhile air travel demand is still low, so not much point in trains that only go to Gatwick.

The Gatwick-Bedford service isn't just there for Gatwick thats just a convenient point to turn it around. Whilst a 12 car is overkill even pre covid outside of rush thats a fixed formation issue. This does get well used from E.Croydon with plenty of passengers always at Norwood Junction who will be the real losers here.

 

[Benjaminmorgan]

Which Thameslink trains will stop at Norwood Junction when the Bedford to Gatwick stop running on the 26th

 

[Ianno87]

. This does get well used from E.Croydon with plenty of passengers always at Norwood Junction who will be the real losers here.

Hardly like either of those locations are lacking alternative services.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Hardly like either of those locations are lacking alternative services.

Fair point that Norwood has other reasonable alternatives but this is only Thameslinks that call at Norwood though.

 

[I13]

There will be some Cambridge services that call at Norwood in the peaks

 

[Ianno87]

There will be some Cambridge services that call at Norwood in the peaks

And for fast London Bridge trains there is also the Epsom-London Bridge fast service via West Croydon

 

[DarloRich]

Words fail me but with the DFT in charge the network will prob be mothballed in a year.

A blatant test event from the DFT to see reaction before mass cuts in my eyes.

You want your eyes testing

Bedford to Brighton!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My folks live in Flitwick and even every 15 mins off peak there rammed London-Bedford

No they are not

Have we clarified this is down to sickness or DFT meddling?

Facts hardly seems to matter. You have decided.

For the rest of us it is the "pingdemic" caused by the out of control pandemic and route knowledge. I also suspect summer holidays aren't helping.

 

[Class 170101]

Most of whom will have completed their (up to) 10 days' isolation by next Monday (though of course more will have been pinged before then).

Assuming they haven't contracted Covid 19 of course.

 

[Timmyd]

4 of 8 trains per hour coming out at Tulse Hill. Beckenham Junction to LBG won’t be too bad, that line is still not too busy (although the suggestion of a bus WNW to Herne Hill rather than TUH is odd), but the Thameslink loop trains are getting a lot busier and 2tph on this section will be crowded and not much good for distancing. Also timetabling might be an issue as if they are to remove one train each way round the loop as the publicity says, you’ll end up with a 45-15 min gap which would lead to chaos as the trains get further in.

As an observation it is striking how the TL route - through various operators - always seems susceptible to these types of planned cancellations whereas SE, SW etc manage to maintain the service. Oddly cancellations have indeed been bad over recent weeks but have been better the past few days - saw none at TUH or CTK this morning for the first time in a few weeks, so surprising they are doing this now.