Thameslink and Southern timetable reduction from 26th July 2021

[Benjaminmorgan]

Does this affect weekend as well as weekdays

 

[Gerard92]

The train planning teams / Roster clerks will also factor in what depots sign what routes for example Horsham drivers don’t sign up to Cambridge but they do cover 9S trips between Three Bridges - Finsbury Park so there’s extra resources available for that particular run also what’s been mentioned before some routes have overlapping services another example between St Pancras - Gatwick 9R/9J circuits run over the same route so the 9J’s can have additional stops added south of Croydon.

Another problem which would of been worked on is the Sutton loops, the TL services could of been suspended via Mitcham and have just 2tph via Wimbledon but this would cause problems with shunting from platforms 1 to 2 at Sutton. Hopefully announcement at stations can be played between St Pancras - Sutton mentioning services continue via Mitcham/Wimbledon to keep passengers moving so they don’t have to wait long for a more direct services (I know that would be annoying for passengers having to travel around the whole loop but this would keep them moving with out them waiting ages for a direct service)

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

4 of 8 trains per hour coming out at Tulse Hill. Beckenham Junction to LBG won’t be too bad, that line is still not too busy (although the suggestion of a bus WNW to Herne Hill rather than TUH is odd), but the Thameslink loop trains are getting a lot busier and 2tph on this section will be crowded and not much good for distancing. Also timetabling might be an issue as if they are to remove one train each way round the loop as the publicity says, you’ll end up with a 45-15 min gap which would lead to chaos as the trains get further in.

As an observation it is striking how the TL route - through various operators - always seems susceptible to these types of planned cancellations whereas SE, SW etc manage to maintain the service. Oddly cancellations have indeed been bad over recent weeks but have been better the past few days - saw none at TUH or CTK this morning for the first time in a few weeks, so surprising they are doing this now.

It does seem this is a pre-emptive move to cancel whole service groups irrespective of how many drivers are actually self isolating and good point that other L&SE operators aren't having same issues.

 

[Bald Rick]

So i do hope the hapless RDG are right now making the case to Dept of BEIS/Transport

That’s been happening for weeks (albeit not just from RDG). This has been coming for a while.

 

[Horizon22]

To be fair, several TOCs will be doing minor reductions due to the unavailability of drivers - levels were already low but track and trace had caused many more to isolate. GWR and Chiltern I believe will be doing a few planned cancellations from Monday.

 

[bicbasher]

Norwood Junction seems the easiest to cut TL from with Southern and London Overground still serving the station, but will only be served off-peak by 2tph fasts to London Bridge from Epsom.

However the station will still have 4tph to London Bridge with the 2tph stoppers via Forest Hill. It may be wise for passengers wanting East Croydon to either get the remaining services to West Croydon and change for the tram or get the 197 or 312 buses which take around 15/20 minutes as off-peak it's only 2tph at x06 and x36 Southern stoppers going to East Croydon.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That’s been happening for weeks (albeit not just from RDG). This has been coming for a while.

Not headed it off before it caused issues!

 

[OliverH68]

You can always change for a Southern service at London Bridge or East Croydon though....

While true, the connections towards Purley aren't always the best at East Croydon unless you time it right.

 

[Hadders]

Not headed it off before it caused issues!

The Government don’t understand the issue and they certainly don’t listen to business…..

 

[Bald Rick]

Not headed it off before it caused issues!

They’re not going to make widespread exceptions.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They’re not going to make widespread exceptions.

The Guardian are reporting this tonight

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...workers-to-be-allowed-to-avoid-self-isolation

Workers from 16 key services including health, transport and energy will not have to isolate after being pinged by the NHS Covid app, as it was revealed that more than 600,000 people in England and Wales were sent self-isolation alerts last week.

The raft of changes, after days of frantic talks with industry leaders, came amid open Conservative revolt over the so-called “pingdemic” with the former health secretary Jeremy Hunt warning the government that it was facing a crisis of public trust in the system.

Dept of Transport should be working with TOCs to agree what the criteria is and which specific workers should be targeted to maintain service levels.

 

[Bald Rick]

Dept of Transport should be working with TOCs to agree what the criteria is and which specific workers should be targeted to maintain service levels.

Already have.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Already have.

I look forward to the 9R's being reinstated then which have run reliably all week until today which was down to person hit by train so no shortage of drivers.

 

[Bald Rick]

I look forward to the 9R's being reinstated then which have run reliably all week until today which was down to person hit by train so no shortage of drivers.

Ah. Don’t hold your breath.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Ah. Don’t hold your breath.

Im not but a mass cancellation of a complete service group seems an over reaction to and with tonights concessions on self isolation it ought to be reassessed quickly. I get its prudent to reduce services in light of the current pingdemic but Thameslink communication just doesn't cut it with no information on what the alternatives are just a statement to look at journey planners on Sunday. The only way the 9R's stopping pattern can be covered is by amending the Horsham - Peterborough trains, as they've done previously, so why are they unable to provide such clarity when making such an announcement.

 

[Saint66]

From the Gov.uk guidance on tonight’s announcement:

“The process will not cover all or in most cases even the majority of workers in critical sectors. For example, an exception may be suitable in the case of absences in critical railway signalling roles essential for the functioning of parts of the network but is less likely to be suitable for individual train drivers.”

[Withdrawn] NHS Test and Trace in the workplace

What to do if you or someone you employ is required to self-isolate. This includes being contacted by NHS Test and Trace, self-isolation rules and financial support.

www.gov.uk

 

[Bikeman78]

More likely stops in the Horsham service and a tighter turnaround at Horsham.

Yes they stop at Purley and either Salfords or Earlswood. Most turn rounds are six or eight minutes but the 1215 arrival at Horsham makes the 1218 back to Peterborough. I hope it's not the same driver. The trains stop at Purley on the slow line platforms and use the cross overs at the north end of the station which are quite rare these days I think. Are the fast line platforms shut at Purley?

 

[Surreytraveller]

The train planning teams / Roster clerks will also factor in what depots sign what routes for example Horsham drivers don’t sign up to Cambridge but they do cover 9S trips between Three Bridges - Finsbury Park so there’s extra resources available for that particular run also what’s been mentioned before some routes have overlapping services another example between St Pancras - Gatwick 9R/9J circuits run over the same route so the 9J’s can have additional stops added south of Croydon.

Another problem which would of been worked on is the Sutton loops, the TL services could of been suspended via Mitcham and have just 2tph via Wimbledon but this would cause problems with shunting from platforms 1 to 2 at Sutton. Hopefully announcement at stations can be played between St Pancras - Sutton mentioning services continue via Mitcham/Wimbledon to keep passengers moving so they don’t have to wait long for a more direct services (I know that would be annoying for passengers having to travel around the whole loop but this would keep them moving with out them waiting ages for a direct service)

Nothing to do with train planning teams, as its outside their time frames. They refuse to get involved

Yes they stop at Purley and either Salfords or Earlswood. Most turn rounds are six or eight minutes but the 1215 arrival at Horsham makes the 1218 back to Peterborough. I hope it's not the same driver. The trains stop at Purley on the slow line platforms and use the cross overs at the north end of the station which are quite rare these days I think. Are the fast line platforms shut at Purley?

Fast line platforms have to be specially opened. Its okay if the station staff are aware of what's going on

 

[Bald Rick]

Im not but a mass cancellation of a complete service group seems an over reaction to and with tonights concessions on self isolation it ought to be reassessed quickly.

I wouldn’t count last nights announcment as ‘news’ to those working on this issue. As I suggested earlier, the basis they have been working on has been clear for a week or so.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I wouldn’t count last nights announcment as ‘news’ to those working on this issue. As I suggested earlier, the basis they have been working on has been clear for a week or so.

Indeed. Its not new. Its been happening since Christmas. They're only going public about it now

 

[JonathanH]

The trains stop at Purley on the slow line platforms and use the cross overs at the north end of the station which are quite rare these days I think. Are the fast line platforms shut at Purley?

If they stopped on the fast, the Bedford to Brighton service would be right up behind southbound.

However, I guess that fast line stops are discouraged because of the need for the gates to be unlocked, which in turn negates the operational benefit of having the fast line platforms fenced off.

 

[Class2ldn]

Yes they stop at Purley and either Salfords or Earlswood. Most turn rounds are six or eight minutes but the 1215 arrival at Horsham makes the 1218 back to Peterborough. I hope it's not the same driver. The trains stop at Purley on the slow line platforms and use the cross overs at the north end of the station which are quite rare these days I think. Are the fast line platforms shut at Purley?

It wouldn't make the 1218 back. Its not even enough allocated time to set the cab up.
Most turn arounds will be at least 10 minutes as that is the minimum walking time including cab set up on a 12 car.
The only way it could ever be that short was if it down on the diagram as a relieve but thats just not going to happen as its a cab set up so will always be that minimum time at least.

 

[Aictos]

It wouldn't make the 1218 back. Its not even enough allocated time to set the cab up.
Most turn arounds will be at least 10 minutes as that is the minimum walking time including cab set up on a 12 car.
The only way it could ever be that short was if it down on the diagram as a relieve but thats just not going to happen as its a cab set up so will always be that minimum time at least.

After taking a look at the timetable for today as a example, I can't see a single Thameslink service that has less then 10 minutes for a turn around indeed the vast majority of the services all seem to have 15 minutes off peak and 10 minutes peak with the exception of the 12:11 off peak which seems to have a 10 minute turnaround.

Three minutes won't work for the reasons I quoted above but also because Horsham has a train presentation operation there and 3 minutes is nowhere near enough time for any staff member to carry out train presentation duties.

Yes they stop at Purley and either Salfords or Earlswood. Most turn rounds are six or eight minutes but the 1215 arrival at Horsham makes the 1218 back to Peterborough. I hope it's not the same driver. The trains stop at Purley on the slow line platforms and use the cross overs at the north end of the station which are quite rare these days I think. Are the fast line platforms shut at Purley?

There is no such service though, there is a 12:11 arrival at Horsham from Peterborough which departs at 12:23 going back to Horsham so nothing like the 3 minute turnaround you have stated.

 

[Watershed]

Nothing to do with train planning teams, as its outside their time frames. They refuse to get involved

Depends on the TOC! Some do deal with short notice timetable reductions.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If they stopped on the fast, the Bedford to Brighton service would be right up behind southbound.

However, I guess that fast line stops are discouraged because of the need for the gates to be unlocked, which in turn negates the operational benefit of having the fast line platforms fenced off.

These shouldn't be calling at Purley but have to because the through services off the branches have been pulled as well so Purley needs the capacity as the Reigate-Vics are limited to 4 cars.

Again Thameslink are running a full service today, well they were till the Eastern Region managed to continue on from yesterdays fiasco at Cambridge but move it to Peterborough today, despite the driver shortfall. Anyhow i appreciate thats down to driver working rest days and extra hours and with summer hols and booked annual leave it would be unsustainable so sensible to be prudent. Be good if GTR explained that more to people that our staff have been battling driver absence due to T&T and working extra turns but its become unsustainable but we expect to restore the current timetable by xx/xx/202x

 

[Bikeman78]

It wouldn't make the 1218 back. Its not even enough allocated time to set the cab up.
Most turn arounds will be at least 10 minutes as that is the minimum walking time including cab set up on a 12 car.
The only way it could ever be that short was if it down on the diagram as a relieve but thats just not going to happen as its a cab set up so will always be that minimum time at least.

The timings in Realtime Trains are different to the downloadable timetables referenced in post #1. The timings in RTT cannot work because the trains from Horsham to Peterborough conflict with the trains from Bognor Regis to Victoria. On the public timetables the Peterborough trains depart Horsham at the normal XX25/XX55 times and stop at Salfords or Earlswood but not Purley. However, a journey enquiry on National Rail shows direct trains from Horsham to Purley and the times agree with RTT. What a mess!

 

[Haywain]

Bedford to Brighton!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My folks live in Flitwick and even every 15 mins off peak there rammed London-Bedford

They haven't been on them lately then.

 

[Benjaminmorgan]

Will this affect Saturday and Sunday

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The timings in Realtime Trains are different to the downloadable timetables referenced in post #1. The timings in RTT cannot work because the trains from Horsham to Peterborough conflict with the trains from Bognor Regis to Victoria. On the public timetables the Peterborough trains depart Horsham at the normal XX25/XX55 times and stop at Salfords or Earlswood but not Purley. However, a journey enquiry on National Rail shows direct trains from Horsham to Purley and the times agree with RTT. What a mess!

Earlswood gets a TL half hourly southbound through morning peak (minimal traffic) but only one train Nth Bound (majority of traffic) so that gap needs to be filled. At least its hourly in the PM peak but they should run one Bedford up in the morning and back in the evening peak which would only take two drivers - they must have freed up 15-20 turns by pulling the 9R's and these drivers don't know Canal Tunnels I believe so can only support the Brighton-Bedfords.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Earlswood gets a TL half hourly southbound through morning peak (minimal traffic) but only one train Nth Bound (majority of traffic) so that gap needs to be filled. At least its hourly in the PM peak but they should run one Bedford up in the morning and back in the evening peak which would only take two drivers - they must have freed up 15-20 turns by pulling the 9R's and these drivers don't know Canal Tunnels I believe so can only support the Brighton-Bedfords.

Two drivers to run two trains? Where are they going to get those two drivers from to drive just one train each, and who is going to organise that?
Its not only just drivers who are isolating, its staff who arrange the train service - and its a major task to do a rewrite, and there aren't staff sitting around to do timetable rewrites at short notice