Thameslink and Southern timetable reduction from 26th July 2021

[Ianno87]

Two drivers to run two trains? Where are they going to get those two drivers from to drive just one train each, and who is going to organise that?
Its not only just drivers who are isolating, its staff who arrange the train service - and its a major task to do a rewrite, and there aren't staff sitting around to do timetable rewrites at short notice

This x 1000.

There aren't resources to keep rewriting timetables weekly. Best have one plan, even if it is slightly unambitious, than no let up in the planners' workload (remembering that in all of this T12 it still being recovered)

 

[Minstral25]

Earlswood gets a TL half hourly southbound through morning peak (minimal traffic) but only one train Nth Bound (majority of traffic) so that gap needs to be filled. At least its hourly in the PM peak but they should run one Bedford up in the morning and back in the evening peak which would only take two drivers - they must have freed up 15-20 turns by pulling the 9R's and these drivers don't know Canal Tunnels I believe so can only support the Brighton-Bedfords.

Earlswood will get the Gatwick to Victoria services every 30 minutes at peak times Northbound

Nightmare off peak - hourly is poor from both Earlswood and Salfords plus if you want to travel between each you have to go via Redhill or Gatwick/Horley.

 

[JonathanH]

Nightmare off peak - hourly is poor from both Earlswood and Salfords plus if you want to travel between each you have to go via Redhill or Gatwick/Horley.

Or catch the 100, 400, 420, 460 buses. How many people actually travel specifically between Earlswood and Salfords? GTR will know. I'd guess it isn't very many.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Earlswood will get the Gatwick to Victoria services every 30 minutes at peak times Northbound

Nightmare off peak - hourly is poor from both Earlswood and Salfords plus if you want to travel between each you have to go via Redhill or Gatwick/Horley.

Im fine with an hourly service thats the compromise we all have to make with the situation GTR faces but we are missing a TL service in the morning peak between 0635 and 0822 so an 0722 would have been nice. Yes you can use the 7.31 Victoria but that sits at Redhill for 8 mins and doesn't help going to ECR so will have to wait for the Peterborough. Also this concentrates people onto shorter trains so risks them many being pinged and forced to self isolate withdrawing them from supporting society.

Anyhow it is what it is and hopefully come 16th August change to the app GTR will be in a position to reassess.

 

[Bikeman78]

This x 1000.

There aren't resources to keep rewriting timetables weekly. Best have one plan, even if it is slightly unambitious, than no let up in the planners' workload (remembering that in all of this T12 it still being recovered)

Well someone will have to rewrite the rewrite or there will be a lot of delay minutes on Monday!

 

[Minstral25]

Or catch the 100, 400, 420, 460 buses. How many people actually travel specifically between Earlswood and Salfords? GTR will know. I'd guess it isn't very many.

A normal 2 minute journey is now 50 minutes, but yes the bus is possible alternative and much faster between stations.

For a station with half hourly service people tend to turn up knowing the normal times and will be surprised, hence if you are travelling to/from further afield it will be a bit of a nightmare off-peak. Either changing from Gatwick or from London the buses don't really work as an alternative although are possible. For example (And to be fair it is probably the worse) coming off the non-calling train for Earlswood to use the bus most of the day it is 29 minute onward journey against 32 waiting for next train that calls. So buses are generally not viable as the second half-hourly service.

It is a shame they decided to cut services even more at whilst not the biggest but fairly well used stations.

 

[Bikeman78]

There is no such service though, there is a 12:11 arrival at Horsham from Peterborough which departs at 12:23 going back to Horsham so nothing like the 3 minute turnaround you have stated.

When I wrote post #77 I checked RTT and National Rail for Tuesday 27th and the times were as I quoted. However, someone has now realised that the revised times clashed with the Southern trains to Victoria so they have been altered to XX23/XX53 from Horsham. Interestingly the up trains are shown calling at platform 1 at Purley, on the up fast. The down trains cross to the slow just north of Purley station and stop at platform 4.

 

[Aictos]

When I wrote post #77 I checked RTT and National Rail for Tuesday 27th and the times were as I quoted. However, someone has now realised that the revised times clashed with the Southern trains to Victoria so they have been altered to XX23/XX53 from Horsham. Interestingly the up trains are shown calling at platform 1 at Purley, on the up fast. The down trains cross to the slow just north of Purley station and stop at platform 4.

I was going from the current timetable there is a 12:11 arrival at Horsham from Peterborough and a 12:23 departure back to Peterborough, at the time of your post you were not clear enough to state that the you were looking at 27th July for the amended timetable. I also don't believe they just changed it because the revised times clashed with the Southern services, I believe it was more to do with the fact that a 3 minute turnaround is unworkable.

 

[Bikeman78]

I was going from the current timetable there is a 12:11 arrival at Horsham from Peterborough and a 12:23 departure back to Peterborough, at the time of your post you were not clear enough to state that the you were looking at 27th July for the amended timetable. I also don't believe they just changed it because the revised times clashed with the Southern services, I believe it was more to do with the fact that a 3 minute turnaround is unworkable.

Forgive me for pointing out the obvious but the thread title refers to timetable alterations for next week. So I looked at the times for next week. They've changed the times all day. The really short turn round at lunch time is because those trains stop at Faygate. Somehow they have managed to make it work with slightly later departures from Horsham. I guess they have squeezed the dwell times a bit. At least there will be less hanging about at stations.

 

[flitwickbeds]

4 trains in a row (departures from Flitwick at 2216, 2228, 2256, and 2318) canceled last night due to shortage of train crew resulting in a gap of 1h45m between trains. No alternatives offered.

If the same thing happens next week with timetables already reduced by half, that means a gap of ~3.5 hours.

Not acceptable on a line which serves 2 airports and the capital city. I understand staff being unavailable, but surely Thameslink would have had at least a few hours to put an alternative plan in place?

 

[Timmyd]

As I thought, the new timetable leaves 45 minute gaps at the height of the peak in place of a 15 minute service on TL both north and south of the Thames. Trains have been getting busier and this will be absolute chaos tomorrow morning. These services were running almost normally towards the end of last week, and SE/SWR continue to run normally - seems like a very convenient over-reaction.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

I find it odd that there are all these changes to Southern and the original part of Thameslink but virtually no changes at all on the GN and the Cambridge/Peterborough elements of Thameslink.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I find it odd that there are all these changes to Southern and the original part of Thameslink but virtually no changes at all on the GN and the Cambridge/Peterborough elements of Thameslink.

Presumably different train crew depots are getting different "ping" hit rates and some consistently have a lot more crews unavailable than others?

Another factor could be which depots have a higher level of rest day working - those will be getting hit much harder by the ping" factor.

 

[Benjaminmorgan]

Will weekend be different

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I find it odd that there are all these changes to Southern and the original part of Thameslink but virtually no changes at all on the GN and the Cambridge/Peterborough elements of Thameslink.

With respect to Thameslink services you mention, perhaps there are more alternatives south of East Croydon?

 

[KC1]

I was on the Peterborough train from Redhill (10.28) yesterday going to London Bridge, although not scheduled to stop at either Purley or Norwood Junction (neither train times or dot matrix stated this), it did, in addition, of course, to its regular stops at Merstham and Coulsdon South.

Based on this not being a peak time train, it’s probably safe to assume that this will continue until further notice.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I was on the Peterborough train from Redhill (10.28) yesterday going to London Bridge, although not scheduled to stop at either Purley or Norwood Junction (neither train times or dot matrix stated this), it did, in addition, of course, to its regular stops at Merstham and Coulsdon South.

Based on this not being a peak time train, it’s probably safe to assume that this will continue until further notice.

Its a car crash tonight with multiple cancellations with Southern services now on stop orders via Redhill.

My understanding is the PBO have a crew change at Finsbury Pk unlike the Bedfords where the drivers largely cover the whole route so if correct then lose one driver and whole train gets cancelled.

Would have been better to run the 9J's and 9R's as hourly.

 

[southern442]

Funny how Norwood Junction to East Croydon is currently 2tph when 5 years ago it was 8tph...

 

[Bikeman78]

My understanding is the PBO have a crew change at Finsbury Pk unlike the Bedfords where the drivers largely cover the whole route so if correct then lose one driver and whole train gets cancelled.

Not all of them. Horsham drivers go to Peterborough and vice versa. I think some trains have a driver change at Three Bridges. I have no idea what a typical diagram looks like. One round trip on the full length of the route is rather short for one diagram and two round trips is much too long.

 

[Class2ldn]

Horsham do go to Peterborough but most of the depot doesn't sign the route past Finsbury Park so most of the jobs swap there.
The jobs to Peterborough are just up, break and then back down.

 

[bramling]

Horsham do go to Peterborough but most of the depot doesn't sign the route past Finsbury Park so most of the jobs swap there.
The jobs to Peterborough are just up, break and then back down.

Is this a permanent arrangement or the legacy of May 18?

The Finsbury Park crew reliefs are an utter pain during disruption, but they do at least offer the option for trains to be turned back. It seems an even worse scenario is a Horsham train reaching Finsbury Park with a driver who finishes at Horsham, and something goes wrong somewhere south. At least if it’s a Peterborough driver he can make the train into what would have been his northbound service and go via King’s Cross.

 

[cle]

Funny how Norwood Junction to East Croydon is currently 2tph when 5 years ago it was 8tph...

New Cross Gate didn't last too long either. It's definitely gone back to being a non-stop stretch, with all of the additional / non-diverted services.

 

[Class2ldn]

Is this a permanent arrangement or the legacy of May 18?

The Finsbury Park crew reliefs are an utter pain during disruption, but they do at least offer the option for trains to be turned back. It seems an even worse scenario is a Horsham train reaching Finsbury Park with a driver who finishes at Horsham, and something goes wrong somewhere south. At least if it’s a Peterborough driver he can make the train into what would have been his northbound service and go via King’s Cross.

Well I think there is around 5 or 6 jobs that are booked to go all the way through but I'm not sure how many drivers sign all the way so if there's not enough drivers they will be relieved at Finsbury and a gn driver will take it northbound from there.
Horsham also sign KX so can use that if need be.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

New Cross Gate didn't last too long either. It's definitely gone back to being a non-stop stretch, with all of the additional / non-diverted services.

Indeed after they spent a fortune putting in decent access to the island platforms now nothing stops. Very short sighted as this is a useful place to change onto the ELL and improve connectivity into this side of London. Hopefully GBR will have a policy that requires connectivity to be key plank in designing timetables in future.

 

[Watershed]

Not all of them. Horsham drivers go to Peterborough and vice versa. I think some trains have a driver change at Three Bridges. I have no idea what a typical diagram looks like. One round trip on the full length of the route is rather short for one diagram and two round trips is much too long.

One of the Peterborough turns involves Horsham-Peterborough, break (approx 1'20" between trains), down to Peterborough-Horsham-Three Bridges, then pass back to Horsham, which is about 8 hours.

But even just a Horsham-Peterborough, break, Peterborough-Horsham is just over 7 hours.

Other turns involve a crew change at Finsbury Park, sometimes just with a break and then back, other times with a trip to Kings Cross and back to keep up route knowledge, sometimes 2 trips to Finsbury Park and back.

And a few (especially of the late services) involve a crew change at Stevenage.

It's a mixed bag.

 

[flitwickbeds]

One train an hour tonight!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

One train an hour tonight!

Several Peterbough-Horshams being cancelled on a daily basis despite the 9R's being completely withdrawn due to ongoing driver shortage. Still can't get how TL are suffering such large scale driver shortage compare to other LSE operators but by next week many will have been through there 10 day self isolation period so ought to be returning.
Don't see the 9R's being reinstated till early September.

 

[Timmyd]

What’s really unforgivable at the moment is an epidemic of skip-stopping on top of the planned cancellations - running fast on the busiest flows for 7-8 minute delays meaning hour long gaps not at all unusual on Sutton-St Albans. Absolute contempt for passengers.

 

[flitwickbeds]

What’s really unforgivable at the moment is an epidemic of skip-stopping on top of the planned cancellations - running fast on the busiest flows for 7-8 minute delays meaning hour long gaps not at all unusual on Sutton-St Albans. Absolute contempt for passengers.

Yes - saw yesterday that a St Albans stopper was whooshed because of a ~14 minute delay.

Meanwhile, this is the scene at London Bridge right now with people trying to cram on (unsuccessfully) to an (8 car) Brighton fast.

 

[43066]

Yes - saw yesterday that a St Albans stopper was whooshed because of a ~14 minute delay.

Meanwhile, this is the scene at London Bridge right now with people trying to cram on (unsuccessfully) to an (8 car) Brighton fast.

And we were told passengers would never come back…