Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Failed Unit]

Wow, what's happened this morning? Six of the next ten trains at Hitchin are cancelled.

Certainly proves that their claim it was all network rails fault is groundless. We are over 12 weeks in and not much has improved. The majority of cancellations this morning are on the London - Cambridge route. ie existing infrastructure.

Normal story on the 0732 Welwyn Garden City - London. No stock to run it. Inbound was cancelled but still showing “on-time” at stops down the line despite the fact it hasn’t even left wgc.

 

[Downthelane]

Guess it's time to say bye then Grant.

 

[Downthelane]

Certainly proves that their claim it was all network rails fault is groundless. We are over 12 weeks in and not much has improved. The majority of cancellations this morning are on the London - Cambridge route. ie existing infrastructure.

Normal story on the 0732 Welwyn Garden City - London. No stock to run it. Inbound was cancelled but still showing “on-time” at stops down the line despite the fact it hasn’t even left wgc.

Moreover at HAT station YET AGAIN station staff have no idea it's not running.

 

[Failed Unit]

Moreover at HAT station YET AGAIN station staff have no idea it's not running.

It is unbelievable that great northern consider this as acceptable and brush it off as “the timetable needs time to bed in”. My view a timetable should basically work on the first day. May find conflicts that need tweaking because of delays but not high numbers of cancellations.

I know the Parliament is on summer recess - but it really is time enforcement action is taken against them and GTR are hit hard financially.

Some interesting workings today such as the 0610 Kings Lynn - London service stopping at stations south of Stevenage. Don’t expect many can get on / off somehow.

 

[Nick66]

Interesting one today. I was travelling on the 18:09 from City Thameslink to Dartford when the driver announced that the train would be terminating at Dartford as there was no driver for the rest of the journey. Cue everyone getting off. Then I noticed people on the platform waiting to get on. Checked NRE and RTT out of pure curiosity and the train appears to be continuing on its way. Can’t they even get cancellations right now?

 

[radamfi]

Why are there still 8 coach trains running on the Brighton Line? The plan, if I recall, was for 8 coach trains to be used only on metro services plus the Cambridge to Maidstone East service which isn't even running yet. Given the reduced timetable, surely all the more reason for everything to be 12 coaches? There also seems to be a lot more 8 coach long distance Southern trains than there used to be.

 

[bramling]

It is unbelievable that great northern consider this as acceptable and brush it off as “the timetable needs time to bed in”. My view a timetable should basically work on the first day. May find conflicts that need tweaking because of delays but not high numbers of cancellations.

I know the Parliament is on summer recess - but it really is time enforcement action is taken against them and GTR are hit hard financially.

Some interesting workings today such as the 0610 Kings Lynn - London service stopping at stations south of Stevenage. Don’t expect many can get on / off somehow.

Course the timetable should work well from day one. There will always be niggles and conflicts which the real world finds, but it shouldn’t be anything more than that.

And lest we remember certain posters here intimating how much extensive planning and modelling had gone into this timetable!

Tonight seems another poor evening. Lots of cancellations and alterations. I’m sure at least some of this is down to coverage, August being August, however this is unfortunately what happens when your plan is on a shoestring.

My big worry remains underlying poor performance from the Thameslink core - and, to be fair, performance issues from the GN network affecting elsewhere. I think we’ve all now had enough foretaste of what this means in practice! Late home every night this week - two nights stuck behind late-running Thameslink services in the Hitchin area, cancelled last night due to driver booking off unexpectedly evidently with no spares cover available, and tonight it seems extra stops to cover for another cancelled service. Even the choice of extra stops outwardly seems pretty odd, but maybe they have their reasons.

 

[Fred26]

If there's extra stops it's almost certainly because staff at whichever stations have requested them.

 

[Hadders]

Why are there still 8 coach trains running on the Brighton Line? The plan, if I recall, was for 8 coach trains to be used only on metro services plus the Cambridge to Maidstone East service which isn't even running yet. Given the reduced timetable, surely all the more reason for everything to be 12 coaches? There also seems to be a lot more 8 coach long distance Southern trains than there used to be.

Remember most of the 700s are 8-car not 12...

 

[bramling]

If there's extra stops it's almost certainly because staff at whichever stations have requested them.

Maybe, but still a strange choice, and borne out by what happened.

The cancelled service was the 2121 KX to Cambridge. So the 2154 KX to Letchworth gained stops at Finsbury Park and Stevenage. The Finsbury call was useless for anyone wanting to reach 313 services as surely most would just use the Victoria Line or something from St Pancras rather than waiting over half an hour? Then why stop at Stevenage when other services were running to/from there. A very small handful boarded at Finsbury (presumably for Knebworth as a Stevenage/Hitchin ShamblesLink/ had just left), and slightly more than a handful alighted at Stevenage - I suspect many of these may have been people planning to get the 2206 off KX who had the luck of an early service. A very small number boarded at Stevenage. Despite the extra two stops, still delayed by a late running 700 in front through Hitchin.

The mind boggles with some of the decisions made by this operator.

The one plus of the current situation is that many trains are now running pretty empty. A couple of days this week I’ve had a carriage to myself on a 365 coming out of London, and that was *very* rare before - in the whole old timetable there were only a couple of services where this was even mildly likely, especially in the evening. Sure there is surplus off-peak capacity now at certain times, but I don’t think that’s the full story. I don’t think it’s summer holidays either, as in my experience any drop in commuter traffic has always been roughly balanced by day trippers.

I do like the evening 365 services - hopefully they will remain indefinitely. Lovely missing both Finsbury Park and Stevenage, although still feels somehow wrong!

 

[Hadders]

The one plus of the current situation is that many trains are now running pretty empty. A couple of days this week I’ve had a carriage to myself on a 365 coming out of London, and that was *very* rare before - in the whole old timetable there were only a couple of services where this was even mildly likely, especially in the evening. Sure there is surplus off-peak capacity now at certain times, but I don’t think that’s the full story. I don’t think it’s summer holidays either, as in my experience any drop in commuter traffic has always been roughly balanced by day trippers.

Great Northern services before the shambles were always very busy at all times of the day. It seems to me that the shambles has completely destroyed the leisure market. I suspect the number of travellers from places like High Barnet and Cockfosters is significantly up though.

 

[bramling]

Great Northern services before the shambles were always very busy at all times of the day. It seems to me that the shambles has completely destroyed the leisure market. I suspect the number of travellers from places like High Barnet and Cockfosters is significantly up though.

Yes definitely and I suspect at weekends especially when there’s less chance of finding the car park full. I was one of them on Wednesday night after the Wednesday GN omnishambles - albeit Edgware and fortunately was able to arrange to be picked up, just a shame I didn’t know in advance as I could have avoided being well over an hour late home...

 

[DesireToFire]

I completely agree.

There should be prosecutions of staff who dangerously close or give the signal to close the doors whilst people are still getting on or off.

This still seems to be off topic though.

I got on a Thameslink/ train yesterday morning at Strood station, where the train stops at the end of the platform well away from the people waiting in the shelter. I was on the train because I know where to be. But there must have been a group of 15+ getting on and the doors started to close when maybe half of them were onboard, the doors were rereleased briefly, i can't believe they weren't seen before closing, I don't know what order they look at the doors before closing but it certainly should be the rear last at Strood. All just unbelievably poor.

 

[Bromley boy]

The doors are closing. You know they are closing. Yet you still decide to dive into a set of closing doors. It could be called the plinky plonky ding dong siren but it doesn't change the fact that the doors are closing and you know they are. Diving into a set of closing doors is not 'normal' Not forgetting the average passenger does not know they are known as the hustle alarm. :/

And yes, you could put big sharp blades on them and I guarantee someone will still decide to stick something in them to stop them closing.

Indeed. It’s also a bylaw offence (AIUI) to board when the hustle alarm is sounding.

I completely agree.

There should be prosecutions of staff who dangerously close or give the signal to close the doors whilst people are still getting on or off.

I’m guessing the above post was written by someone who has never self dispatched a 12 car train on a curved platform, using crap DOO monitors, in poor lighting conditions, when it’s p*ssing down with rain.

Am I right?

 

[radamfi]

Remember most of the 700s are 8-car not 12...

Why the ... ?

I thought there are enough 12 car trains for all mainline services currently running.

 

[bionic]

I got on a Thameslink/ train yesterday morning at Strood station, where the train stops at the end of the platform well away from the people waiting in the shelter. I was on the train because I know where to be. But there must have been a group of 15+ getting on and the doors started to close when maybe half of them were onboard, the doors were rereleased briefly, i can't believe they weren't seen before closing, I don't know what order they look at the doors before closing but it certainly should be the rear last at Strood. All just unbelievably poor.

The DOO cameras on a 700 face inward so, believe it or not, the driver can't see anyone beyond the last set of doors who may be walking or running up to try and board. The driver literally cannot see them until they appear at the door. Its definitely not the drivers fault if they were closing the doors before people out of shot of the cameras were still walking up the platform. Of course on the platform based DOO cameras the driver could see so with a 465 eight car at Strood the driver would have seen them.

Its the same at Blackfriars and City Thameslink when people are running up from the entrance at the back of the train. The driver is literally blind to this. And to think the local ASLEF DCC sold out platform dispatch at these busy locations for a couple of extra quid.

 

[Hadders]

Why the ... ?

I thought there are enough 12 car trains for all mainline services currently running.

110 class 700 trains were ordered and built:

55 are 12 car length
60 are 8 car length

Many go on about the additional capacity these trains bring (at the cost of discomfort etc.) and it is good that the 4 car trains have disappeared but (as far as the GN side os concerned anyway) everything could've been extended to 8 or 12 cars and run to the old timetable at a fraction of the cost.

We'd have had better reliability
More seats
More comfort

It's really is difficult to see any advantages of the Thameslink Programme for Great Northern passengers as things currently stand.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think if the timetable worked many people would like to use the core stations. As I have said in previous posts I would probably use St Pancras for 1/10 journeys with the others involving the use of a core station.

But it is hard to see any benefits now, especially for a weekend traveller.

One thing that is really concerning is reaction to disruptions. Look at today. Horsham service totally shafted because of a signalling problem between Peterborough and Stevenage. Other events this week have disrupted the service for the entire day. Maybe things will get better with more drivers but I don’t see a plan B. Other posters have said this exists, but at the moment I can see a signal failure at Finsbury Park causing the cancellation of lots of services heading to St Albans.

If you take the Horsham service today, could they have turned in further north? Hitchin Maybe?

 

[Hadders]

I think if the timetable worked many people would like to use the core stations. As I have said in previous posts I would probably use St Pancras for 1/10 journeys with the others involving the use of a core station.

But it is hard to see any benefits now, especially for a weekend traveller.

One thing that is really concerning is reaction to disruptions. Look at today. Horsham service totally shafted because of a signalling problem between Peterborough and Stevenage. Other events this week have disrupted the service for the entire day. Maybe things will get better with more drivers but I don’t see a plan B. Other posters have said this exists, but at the moment I can see a signal failure at Finsbury Park causing the cancellation of lots of services heading to St Albans.

If you take the Horsham service today, could they have turned in further north? Hitchin Maybe?

This is the problem. Small delays from either side of the core being transmitted to the other side causing further delays.

It's not too bad where there is a train every 15 minutes as in theory the next train is never very far away. The problem is that many stations on the GN side only see a train every 30 minutes so a small amount of disruption becomes a far bigger issue.

Then add in that trains on the southern ECML are very tightly timed so small disruption causes more magnified disruption.

Add all this together, along with a shortage of drivers and some general GTR incompetence and you have the perfect recipe for a shambles.

 

[Minstral25]

One thing that is really concerning is reaction to disruptions. Look at today. Horsham service totally shafted because of a signalling problem between Peterborough and Stevenage. Other events this week have disrupted the service for the entire day. Maybe things will get better with more drivers but I don’t see a plan B. Other posters have said this exists, but at the moment I can see a signal failure at Finsbury Park causing the cancellation of lots of services heading to St Albans.

If you take the Horsham service today, could they have turned in further north? Hitchin Maybe?

Would have been nice if they had ran a Horsham to East Croydon or London Bridge service, but much canned South of London so many users found hour plus gaps from Horsham and Redhill route stations to London in the peak because of a points failure up north, many of which should have had a service every 15 minutes

 

[jon0844]

I fear Sunday (and possibly some of Saturday) is going to be terrible this weekend. I suspect all this month drivers won't be rushing to do rest day work.

 

[bramling]

I fear Sunday (and possibly some of Saturday) is going to be terrible this weekend. I suspect all this month drivers won't be rushing to do rest day work.

The current weekend service is abysmal even if it ran 100% perfectly - although not that it actually matters that much as people are deserting the service in droves now.

Meanwhile today seems like another crappy day, saw at least two 4-car 387s running around on their own too.

 

[Failed Unit]

I fear Sunday (and possibly some of Saturday) is going to be terrible this weekend. I suspect all this month drivers won't be rushing to do rest day work.

On the great northern side when was the last time that you could rely on the weekend service. I think for nearly 2 years it is multiple cancellations and trains that are not long enough to take the demand. The only really difference this time last year was that when your service was cancelled (or your couldn't physically get on board) the next service was in theory 1/2 hour behind. (not that you could be certain to board that either).

 

[MikeWM]

On the great northern side when was the last time that you could rely on the weekend service. I think for nearly 2 years it is multiple cancellations and trains that are not long enough to take the demand.

I started this thread on the weekend problems two years and three months ago, and the issues had been going on for some months previously (I was surprised at the time no-one else had mentioned them).

Amazing to think that at that point I'd been getting GN(/FCC) trains to/from London almost every Saturday and almost every Sunday for the preceding 8/9 years. Now I've only caught one south of Cambridge in the last three months, and that was only because GA was totally blocked due to a suicide. They've completely lost my custom in favour of GA between Cambridge and London, even though it is a little slower, and I don't see they're exactly trying hard to persuade me back.

 

[bramling]

I started this thread on the weekend problems two years and three months ago, and the issues had been going on for some months previously (I was surprised at the time no-one else had mentioned them).

Amazing to think that at that point I'd be getting GN(/FCC) trains to/from London almost every Saturday and almost every Sunday for the preceding 8/9 years. Now I've only caught one south of Cambridge in the last three months, and that was only because GA was totally blocked due to a suicide. They've completely lost my custom in favour of GA between Cambridge and London, even though it is a little slower, and I don't see they're exactly trying hard to persuade me back.

Cambridge, Stevenage and Peterborough are fortunate in having rail alternatives - albeit slower, more expensive or less frequent. Somewhere like Arlesey station might as well now be closed for all the use it is to people!

Even worse are those making local journeys. Direct journeys like Welwyn to Biggleswade have already been made impossible by the timetable, then on top of that any local journey now involves entering into an involuntary lottery of how long the journey will take. Something like Hitchin to Arlesey should be 5 minutes, yet people have been subject to gaps of 2 hours -- even with the "interim" timetable.

To amplify all this, here's some data from RTTT for this morning's northbound service from Arlesey.

0603 to Peterborough - departed at 0604
0625 to Peterborough - departed at 0654 and terminated at Huntingdon
0655 to Peterborough - departed at 0706 and terminated at Hungtingdon
0755 to Peterborough - cancelled
0825 to Peterborough - cancelled
0855 to Peterborough - cancelled
0925 to Peterborough - departed at 0934
0955 to Peterborough - departed RT!
1025 to Peterborough - departed at 1027
1125 to Peterborough - cancelled
1155 to Peterborough - cancelled
1225 to Peterbnorough - departed at 1231
1255 to Peterborough - departed RT
1355 to Peterborough - departed at 1357
1425 to Peterborough - departed at 1427
1455 to Peterborough - departed at 1510
1525 to Peterborough - departed at 1540
1555 to Peterborough - departed RT
1625 to Peterborough - departed at 1626
1725 to Peterborough - departed RT.

Even the most ardent Thameslink apologists can't fail to agree that this is pretty grim reading. Other days this week have been similarly bad if not worse.

FailedPlan2020.

 

[Hadders]

That’s absolutely appalling. Weren’t we promised the full Maybtimetable by the end of August? It’s become worse than a disgrace.

I travel from Stevenage to London 3 or 4 times a week (but not enough for a season ticket). I’ve made 37 delay repay claims.

 

[londonteacher]

I have to say that although over Thameslink routes are as reliable as the one that I live on. I travel regularly on the service from St Pancras International to Plumstead and in the last few weeks there definitely has been an improvement. Late night services such as the 21:02, 22:02, 22:32 and 23:02 always run on time. I am assuming the gap between the 21:02 and the 22:02 will be filled with a 21:32 once the timetable is complete.

 

[southernyoshi]

Do you think they will eventually cancel the entire weekend &/or off-peak service on the GN side - & if so, would the DfT be forced into action?

 

[sprunt]

Poster in Moorgate this evening.

 

[londonteacher]

This is unacceptable!

Poster in Moorgate this evening.

As much as I said that my line is running well, the franchise does need to be split up again and split the GN routes from the TL!