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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

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Hadders

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Wow. Just wow.

Where are the MPs and Secretary of State? Someone needs to drag them back off their holidays.
 
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adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
I posted a while ago that the concerns that I had in running Thameslink onto Great Northern routes would have been similar to what London Underground had in the 1970s with the Bakerloo Line at Baker Street, where the traditional Bakerloo Line (ex Baker Street & Waterloo) converged/diverged to and from the Stanmore Branch (ex Metropolitan Railway) causing delays.

Instead of reopening the Canal Tunnels, I feel that it would have been better for a new diverging route from Luton Airport Parkway to to link up with the East Coast Mainline/Great Northern (subject to geographical terrain), rather than having it converge/diverge in Zone 1. Unsure if there was a thread regarding an eastward link from Luton Airport Parkway a few years ago or not, although I seem to remember one being to seriously penetrate the vicinity of the terminal buildings at Luton.

I am in agreement and support Bramling's concerns regarding the implementation of the present Thameslink service. I believe it needs to be stripped back to the established Brighton - Bedford Midland limited stop every 15 minutes, with 2 trains running via Redhill, and build it around that. Also, I would be in favour of transferring the Wimbledon & Sutton loop to London Overground and revise it to run West Hampstead Thameslink or Kentish Town - Mitcham Junction - Sutton - Wimbledon - Blackfriars every 15 minutes, doubling the frequency from the present every 30 minutes.
 

bramling

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I posted a while ago that the concerns that I had in running Thameslink onto Great Northern routes would have been similar to what London Underground had in the 1970s with the Bakerloo Line at Baker Street, where the traditional Bakerloo Line (ex Baker Street & Waterloo) converged/diverged to and from the Stanmore Branch (ex Metropolitan Railway) causing delays.

Instead of reopening the Canal Tunnels, I feel that it would have been better for a new diverging route from Luton Airport Parkway to to link up with the East Coast Mainline/Great Northern (subject to geographical terrain), rather than having it converge/diverge in Zone 1. Unsure if there was a thread regarding an eastward link from Luton Airport Parkway a few years ago or not, although I seem to remember one being to seriously penetrate the vicinity of the terminal buildings at Luton.

I am in agreement and support Bramling's concerns regarding the implementation of the present Thameslink service. I believe it needs to be stripped back to the established Brighton - Bedford Midland limited stop every 15 minutes, with 2 trains running via Redhill, and build it around that. Also, I would be in favour of transferring the Wimbledon & Sutton loop to London Overground and revise it to run West Hampstead Thameslink or Kentish Town - Mitcham Junction - Sutton - Wimbledon - Blackfriars every 15 minutes, doubling the frequency from the present every 30 minutes.

I do wonder if they might have to do something ridiculous like run 4 Thameslinks per hour up the Peterborough route simply to provide enough services to counter the erratic nature of the 2tph plan, and simply to provide somewhere for services off the Southern region to go.

I can't stress enough that things will be *so much worse* when the number of core services to/from the Cambridge route increases from 1tph (when it runs!) to the planned 4tph. It's bad enough on the Peterborough route which largely has the slow lines to itself north of Hitchin off-peak and no variation in stopping pattern. The Cambridge route doesn't have this luxury. In other words, if we think it's bad now just wait!
 

uglymonkey

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What I'm struggling to comprehend is a problem in or near Brighton ( or anywhere south of the the river come to that) totally decimates for hours the service on the Cambridge line through Baldock - this never used to happen before - as in previous post if they run more and more trains through the tunnels north and south these compound problems will only get worse and worse. I really don't know what the answer is but it needs a radical rethink. Even if they trained and had all the drivers, I still think whatever problem occurs ( broken points, trespassers, wrong leaves on the line etc) will decimates the service on the other side of the river (miles away).
Its like saying a broken down train on the Exmouth line decimates the service out of Paddington for hours at a time. I just don't get it. If its bad for Thameslink, what on earth is going to happen to Crossrail when its up and running - surely the same problems on one side of the centre will decimate the other side to the same extent?
 

Surreytraveller

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I suppose when the full Thameslink service comes online, the major issue at Brighton is somewhat mitigated by the fact the other Cambridge trains will be coming from Maidstone. So it will only be the fasts or the stoppers that will be screwed, not both. Until the driver from Brighton gets off at Finsbury Park to relieve the train behind that comes from Maidstone!
 

farleigh

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I am amazed at just how badly wrong this has gone. It needs sorting, and it is time for some some honesty and bravery. If it cannot be fixed then so be it - abandon the grand plan and help out the long suffering commuters by just doing the best that can be done.
 

plcd1

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Its like saying a broken down train on the Exmouth line decimates the service out of Paddington for hours at a time. I just don't get it. If its bad for Thameslink, what on earth is going to happen to Crossrail when its up and running - surely the same problems on one side of the centre will decimate the other side to the same extent?

It looks to me as if GTR have not properly planned a series of service recovery / service split scenarios to deal with problems north or south of the Thames so as to avoid a total service collapse. You can't plan every scenario in advance but some are entirely predictable based on past incidents / known asset weaknesses. I suspect GTR were / are so overwhelmed with problems / failings that efficient service recovery was not able to be considered in the mad dash to introduce the May timetable. Controllers and signallers are now learning the hard way with passengers suffering all of the inconvenience.

Crossrail, in theory, should be less risky. TfL / MTR have deliberately split the service into two independent groupings - Shenfield to Paddington and Abbey Wood to H'row / Reading. Clearly the services overlap in the core but a problem on the GEML should not overly affect services to Abbey Wood or Reading. Similarly one of the usual woes on the GWML like signalling or suicides should not cause the Shenfield service to keel over. Obviously time will tell if reality aligns with the theory. There will be failures on Crossrail and I expect the media will be salivating at the prospect of declaring "Lizzie Line service disaster" or some such overblown nonsense. We all know that day will come as do TfL and MTR and I am sure they have some sort of plan to cope with whatever fallout there is.

MTR / TfL have the relative luxury of introducing a new service so can set a separated service pattern through the core from day one. GTR have inherited service patterns built up over many years and have had to fudge the service pattern / timetable to try to accommodate a myriad of political and stakeholder demands. If they could have started with a clean sheet of paper and a different design of railway facilities (including sidings and turnbacks) I suspect the Thameslink service would look vastly different to the one we have today with only an overlap in the core and services turned back north and south of the core to give more insulation from disruption "pollution". There certainly would not be crazy services like Peterborough to Horsham or Bedford to Brighton.
 

plcd1

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Great Northern services before the shambles were always very busy at all times of the day. It seems to me that the shambles has completely destroyed the leisure market. I suspect the number of travellers from places like High Barnet and Cockfosters is significantly up though.

It is worth noting that the patronage numbers for LU services went up by 4m pass jnys in Period 3 (late May to late June) compared to the same period last year. Given LU's patronage has been modestly falling in recent periods this is an unusual "blip". If the increase is maintained into periods 4 and 5 then we may be able to tentatively conclude that LU is benefitting from GTR's woes. Obviously more detail and analysis from TfL is needed to reach any sort of firm conclusion. (The TfL data is available in the London Datastore).
 

samuelmorris

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Well I certainly know someone who has had to switch from using the Sutton loop to using the Northern line so they can get to work, so that doesn't surprise me at all.
 

Hadders

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I caught the 2231 from St Pancras to Stevenage tonight. Admittedly it was a 12 car 700 but I've never seen a train at this time on a Friday evening so quiet. I'd say everyone on board would've fitted into a 4 car train. I know it's August but it's also a Friday night - usually plenty of people travelling on services at that time.

I've said it before but GTR have completely destroyed the leisure travel market on GN.
 

bramling

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It looks to me as if GTR have not properly planned a series of service recovery / service split scenarios to deal with problems north or south of the Thames so as to avoid a total service collapse. You can't plan every scenario in advance but some are entirely predictable based on past incidents / known asset weaknesses. I suspect GTR were / are so overwhelmed with problems / failings that efficient service recovery was not able to be considered in the mad dash to introduce the May timetable. Controllers and signallers are now learning the hard way with passengers suffering all of the inconvenience.

Crossrail, in theory, should be less risky. TfL / MTR have deliberately split the service into two independent groupings - Shenfield to Paddington and Abbey Wood to H'row / Reading. Clearly the services overlap in the core but a problem on the GEML should not overly affect services to Abbey Wood or Reading. Similarly one of the usual woes on the GWML like signalling or suicides should not cause the Shenfield service to keel over. Obviously time will tell if reality aligns with the theory. There will be failures on Crossrail and I expect the media will be salivating at the prospect of declaring "Lizzie Line service disaster" or some such overblown nonsense. We all know that day will come as do TfL and MTR and I am sure they have some sort of plan to cope with whatever fallout there is.

MTR / TfL have the relative luxury of introducing a new service so can set a separated service pattern through the core from day one. GTR have inherited service patterns built up over many years and have had to fudge the service pattern / timetable to try to accommodate a myriad of political and stakeholder demands. If they could have started with a clean sheet of paper and a different design of railway facilities (including sidings and turnbacks) I suspect the Thameslink service would look vastly different to the one we have today with only an overlap in the core and services turned back north and south of the core to give more insulation from disruption "pollution". There certainly would not be crazy services like Peterborough to Horsham or Bedford to Brighton.

This is an excellent post. I agree that Crossrail is much less risky. For a start most of the services will be all-stations, the exception being I believe some limited skip stopping on the Reading arm. Then things are rather more self-contained. These two factors will help a lot, although I wouldn’t be surprised to find things may be a little erratic at times on the west side - but balanced by a more frequent but more limited diversity of services so this probably wouldn’t affect the passenger too badly even if things may be going on operationally. Finally there’s a lot more new purpose-designed infrastructure, and quite simply less to go wrong. Perhaps TFL know what they’re doing a little more too? Time will tell and I could be wrong, but I’d be very surprised if Crossrail runs into more than minor teething issues with its timetabling.

Regarding recovery strategies for GTR, some may wish to read through some old posts over the years, especially those emanating from one or two particular posters. Recovery was described as being very quick and simple - just an easy matter of diverting to King’s Cross or turning at Finsbury Park I seem to remember we were told. In the same breath we heard how the GN network is “simple”. If it’s so simple how come it hasn’t been made to work? Of course most of us could smell this bull a mile off - the concerning thing is one of these posters allegedly works inside GTR or the Thameslink Programme. Says it all really.
 

bramling

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I caught the 2231 from St Pancras to Stevenage tonight. Admittedly it was a 12 car 700 but I've never seen a train at this time on a Friday evening so quiet. I'd say everyone on board would've fitted into a 4 car train. I know it's August but it's also a Friday night - usually plenty of people travelling on services at that time.

I've said it before but GTR have completely destroyed the leisure travel market on GN.

I took 2154 out of KX, carriage completely to self again. Arrived roughly right time for the first time this week though!

Last week I had to get the 2331 off St Pancras on one day as due to unplanned issues I’d missed the last of the pullmans. I think I was about the only person in the rear 6 carriages of the 12-car Undesiro.

And stations like Hitchin and Stevenage retain an element of robustness simply in the form of multiple services (although even they still quite often manage gaps of over an hour). Surely no one at somewhere like Arlesey can risk making a non-essential journey at the moment? Even if you are savvy with apps like OTT or RTTT it’s possible to get caught out, and this of course doesn’t help you getting back.

I think the final countdown for GTR is September when the summer holiday season ends and the political year recommences. If they haven’t got hold of things by then, and I don’t think they will because there are too many structural issues with the Thameslink Programme beyond the driver shambles, then that will be that. Hopefully for both GTR *and* Thameslink Programme in its current form.
 

MikeWM

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I suppose when the full Thameslink service comes online, the major issue at Brighton is somewhat mitigated by the fact the other Cambridge trains will be coming from Maidstone. So it will only be the fasts or the stoppers that will be screwed, not both. Until the driver from Brighton gets off at Finsbury Park to relieve the train behind that comes from Maidstone!

Unfortunately once something to Cambridge gets screwed, everything does, as the section between Hitchin and Cambridge is highly time-sensitive to get the fasts, semi-fasts and stoppers to all fit in, with no opportunity to reorder services once they are on the branch.

I remain firmly of the belief I've had since the start - without dealing with this somehow, the full timetable just can't work when many of these trains are starting so far away. Hard enough for it to work with everything starting at KGX, but with trains from Brighton and Maidstone, impossible.

At the very least they needed to put in passing loops (eg. at Royston) so a stopper can get out of the way of a fast if delayed.
 

bramling

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Unfortunately once something to Cambridge gets screwed, everything does, as the section between Hitchin and Cambridge is highly time-sensitive to get the fasts, semi-fasts and stoppers to all fit in. I remain firmly of the belief I've had since the start - without dealing with this somehow, the full timetable just can't work when many of these trains are starting so far away. Hard enough for it to work with everything starting at KGX, but with Brighton and Maidstone, impossible. At the very least they needed to put in passing loops (eg. at Royston) so a stopper can get out of the way of a fast if delayed.

Well, there is of course one way of dealing with this - just ditch all booked stops between Hitchin and Cambridge when late! Welcome to ThamesLink/ - changing rail travel for good! ;)
 

MikeWM

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More fun - looks like they've cancelled the last train tonight from London to Cambridge, yet again. Incredible.
 

DesireToFire

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The DOO cameras on a 700 face inward so, believe it or not, the driver can't see anyone beyond the last set of doors who may be walking or running up to try and board. The driver literally cannot see them until they appear at the door. Its definitely not the drivers fault if they were closing the doors before people out of shot of the cameras were still walking up the platform. Of course on the platform based DOO cameras the driver could see so with a 465 eight car at Strood the driver would have seen them.

Its the same at Blackfriars and City Thameslink when people are running up from the entrance at the back of the train. The driver is literally blind to this. And to think the local ASLEF DCC sold out platform dispatch at these busy locations for a couple of extra quid.

That's not a great arrangement for these stations it must happen all the time, I guess 12 car trains would more or less fix it. Stroods been worse since they extended the platforms without anymore monitors. Shame the Thameslink trains don't stop shorter on the straighter part of the platform.
 

jon0844

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Problems this morning with an issue in the WGC sidings that has meant one Moorgate train has left the system (not good when you've only got 2tph as it is), and a Cambridge train has been amended because it couldn't get out on time to get to King's Cross.
 

fusionblue

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Last night there was a trespasser at Charlton and services were halted (there seems to be a lot of this lately?)

SET are regularly tweeting updates out about services and when things will be on the move. TL didn't, aside from replies, and just cancelled everything.

If you have to travel in SE Land it's probably a good idea to keep an eye on SET updates too as it seems there's a pattern of TL just pretending it didn't happen.
 

Failed Unit

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That is the surprise to me, doesn't really matter what the incident is but you would expect they have a plan for "Line blocked at Welwyn North"

I know you don't know how long it will be blocked for, but something along the lines of.

Brighton - Cambridge - Turn at London Bridge
Horsham - Peterborough - Divert via Hertford
London - Cambridge - Split at Stevenage and WGC
London - Kings Lynn - Divert via Hertford
London - Hertford - Reduce frequency

At the moment you simply don't see evidence of this and they just stack trains up.

Trouble is even with that. Hertford diversion adds about 20 minutes on. So you soon run out of trains or have massive reactionary delays.
 
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What I'm struggling to comprehend is a problem in or near Brighton ( or anywhere south of the the river come to that) totally decimates for hours the service on the Cambridge line through Baldock - this never used to happen before - as in previous post if they run more and more trains through the tunnels north and south these compound problems will only get worse and worse. I really don't know what the answer is but it needs a radical rethink. Even if they trained and had all the drivers, I still think whatever problem occurs ( broken points, trespassers, wrong leaves on the line etc) will decimates the service on the other side of the river (miles away).
Its like saying a broken down train on the Exmouth line decimates the service out of Paddington for hours at a time. I just don't get it. If its bad for Thameslink, what on earth is going to happen to Crossrail when its up and running - surely the same problems on one side of the centre will decimate the other side to the same extent?

This has been happening to passengers travelling from Bedford to/from London ever since Thameslink began. The fundamental weakness of the whole Thameslink concept is that the trains which form services north of central London start and terminate in Brighton or somewhere else in third-rail land, where the infrastructue is clapped out and there's little or no spare capacity on the network. Couple this to the fact that for Brighton-line passengers there's little or no alternative way for them to get home, meaning that the train operator is forced to send trains south even if the line is blocked by trespassers or badgers.

Thameslink (and FCC before) steadfastly refuse to split the service in two either side of the Core, even in times of serious disruption, because they havent sufficient drivers in the right places or (apparently) capacity to terminate & turn trains. Had they not sacrificed the bay platforms in the old Blackfriars Station during the vanity project rebuild, it would have been a suitable candidate. Similarly, had St Pancras not been handed over to Eurostar, there would have been capacity there. Its a complete planning cock-up, overseen by incompetents and idiots.
 

Hadders

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This has been happening to passengers travelling from Bedford to/from London ever since Thameslink began. The fundamental weakness of the whole Thameslink concept is that the trains which form services north of central London start and terminate in Brighton or somewhere else in third-rail land, where the infrastructue is clapped out and there's little or no spare capacity on the network. Couple this to the fact that for Brighton-line passengers there's little or no alternative way for them to get home, meaning that the train operator is forced to send trains south even if the line is blocked by trespassers or badgers.

Thameslink (and FCC before) steadfastly refuse to split the service in two either side of the Core, even in times of serious disruption, because they havent sufficient drivers in the right places or (apparently) capacity to terminate & turn trains. Had they not sacrificed the bay platforms in the old Blackfriars Station during the vanity project rebuild, it would have been a suitable candidate. Similarly, had St Pancras not been handed over to Eurostar, there would have been capacity there. Its a complete planning cock-up, overseen by incompetents and idiots.

It’s not so much of a problem for Bedford with 4 trains an hour or places like St Albans with 8, or even Stevenage or Cambridge with multiple operators and alternatives.

The issue is places that only get 2 trains an hour, of which there are many on the GN route.
 

gingerheid

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I wonder how long they're going to manage stay in denial for. You'd have thought there might have been a point where they'd feel more embarrassed about continuing to lie through their teeth than about fessing up.
 

bramling

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I wonder how long they're going to manage stay in denial for. You'd have thought there might have been a point where they'd feel more embarrassed about continuing to lie through their teeth than about fessing up.

The GTR political survival game is already well in progress - notice how any time there is any kind of infrastructure failure GTR now make a point of saying “Network Rail failure”.

But the biggest issue is when will the political establishment accept that this is their shambles. DFT’s project, DFT’s management contract, DFT’s Network Rail, DFT’s incompetence.
 

jon0844

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Actually surprised that with a few cancelled Cambridge stopping services, stop orders (on Peterborough services) have filled the gaps. An hourly service is poor, but at least there haven't been the two hour gaps there otherwise might have been.
 

bramling

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Actually surprised that with a few cancelled Cambridge stopping services, stop orders (on Peterborough services) have filled the gaps. An hourly service is poor, but at least there haven't been the two hour gaps there otherwise might have been.

Can’t help but smile ... the old GN Saturday service was 2tph to most destinations, 4tph at Stevenage and Hitchin. The original Thameslink Programme deliverable was 4tph to Cambridge and 2tph to Peterborough. Yet we’re happy just not to get 2-hour gaps achieved through slower journeys as a result of extra stops!

Those who have run this railway over the last few years have a hell of a lot to answer for.
 

Hadders

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Can’t help but smile ... the old GN Saturday service was 2tph to most destinations, 4tph at Stevenage and Hitchin. The original Thameslink Programme deliverable was 4tph to Cambridge and 2tph to Peterborough. Yet we’re happy just not to get 2-hour gaps achieved through slower journeys as a result of extra stops!

Those who have run this railway over the last few years have a hell of a lot to answer for.

Spot on. Given that everything’s going to Kings Cross at weekends making it self contained you’d have thought they could’ve just reverted to the old timetable again.

I don’t even think there are any 12 car 700s atvthe weekends anywhere on GN.
 
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