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The 390 'Pendolino'

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Julian Hornby

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We all know the Pendolino. It's a fast train, yes however it can not even get to it's top speed due to speed restrictions on the West coast mainline. So why were the class 390s chosen to do the job of delivering passengers up and down the country on the west coast mainline? Well, were network rail expecting to be able to increase the speed in some places by straightening curves or making more express lines? They could have payed a lot less and gotten slower electric trains.. If anyone has the answer to this please tell me.
Regards,
Julian.
 
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transmanche

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So why were the class 390s chosen to do the job of delivering passengers up and down the country on the west coast mainline?
Because the original plans for the WCML upgrade would have delivered 140mph running with tilting, by using moving-block signalling.

When it started to go massively over-budget, the plans were scaled back - scrapping the idea of moving block signalling (which wasn't really viable for something as complex as the WCML). So now even with tilt, 125mph is the maximum line speed.
 
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dk1

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PUG1 & PUG2 but the latter never happened in full. Big thrashing out between all parties & agreement finally reached on the deliverable 125mph option. Think Virgin's franchise became management fee plus 1% for a while until re-negotiations where agreed.

All cabs still display Max Speed 140mph.
 

jopsuk

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Whilst they don't reach 140mph, they still go faster than the stock they replaced was able to go (87/90+Mark 3s could do 110mph), and on many parts of the line even "traditional" 125mph stock would be much slower (tilt maintains passenger comfort through more severe curves)
 

Domh245

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When the WCML gets ECTMS (feasibly within the lifetime of the pendolinos), could they start to run at 140 mph then? Fitting an ECTMS screen shouldn't be massively difficult, as I believe they were built with the fitting of a new signalling interface in mind.
 

cjmillsnun

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When the WCML gets ECTMS (feasibly within the lifetime of the pendolinos), could they start to run at 140 mph then? Fitting an ECTMS screen shouldn't be massively difficult, as I believe they were built with the fitting of a new signalling interface in mind.

Yes, if the track is suitable (in many places it is) then once they have cab signalling there is nothing to stop 140MPH running.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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When the WCML gets ECTMS (feasibly within the lifetime of the pendolinos), could they start to run at 140 mph then? Fitting an ECTMS screen shouldn't be massively difficult, as I believe they were built with the fitting of a new signalling interface in mind.

Network Rail have never made it clear if the track and OHLE installed during the upgrade were fit for 140mph or only 125mph.
Virgin still talk about 135mph in places like the Trent Valley and around Lockerbie (using the existing TASS cab signalling, which is a form of ETCS).
 

cjmillsnun

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Whilst they don't reach 140mph, they still go faster than the stock they replaced was able to go (87/90+Mark 3s could do 110mph), and on many parts of the line even "traditional" 125mph stock would be much slower (tilt maintains passenger comfort through more severe curves)

IIRC only TASS equipped stock (390s and 221s) are authorised for 125 on the WCML. HSTs would be restricted to 110.
 

NotATrainspott

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When the WCML gets ECTMS (feasibly within the lifetime of the pendolinos), could they start to run at 140 mph then? Fitting an ECTMS screen shouldn't be massively difficult, as I believe they were built with the fitting of a new signalling interface in mind.

That will also depend on whether timetabling 225km/h paths is possible by that time before HS2 comes around. Speeds which might be technically feasible on the classic tracks are not operationally feasible due to the need for slower and stopping services to share the same track. If 225km/h is ever going to be reached it will likely be used only to recover from minor delays, as 360km/h operation will be on HS2 in current plans.
 

Genocide

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To return to the original post - "they" could have produced a conventional electric loco and stock, but who would have built it?

The 390 is externally different, but basically the same unit that has operated in Europe for the best part of 20 years under the same name, built by the same builders.

The answer, I'd say, is that it was a readily available piece of kit.
 

zn1

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the class 390 is i think a superb bit of kit...its restricted to 125mph max at the moment due to signalling constraints...

typified in the cab by the massive speedo where cab signalling system should actually be.

Now me being a bloke - id have lobbed a large Digital speedo with a variable dimmer in its place instead

the 225 fleet could have have been used for west coast at 125+ IF tilt packs had been developed for the coaches and loco's - they were built with space allocated for this it to be retrofitted...it never has and the space was re-utilised in the project Mallard code 1 rebuild
 

ianhr

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the class 390 is i think a superb bit of kit......

Technically, and in engineering terms yes, and the performance is impressive......I just think it is a pity that the passenger environment is so poor and very inferior to the Mark3 stock they replaced.
 

Class 92

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If it wasn't for the APT failing to live up to what was expected of it then there may not have been a English Pendolino.
 

zn1

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i suspect that at 140mph the ride is hell of alot better, the 225 fleet had to have the bogies fine tuned due to rough riding. the SIG bogie rides better at high speed..

finally - We have to thank the APT Boys in Derby for their work, without them we wouldnt have the west coast tilters, albeit built under the Fiat Licence by alstom and bombardier for demu tilters. They have their grandparents heritage built in..

I think they look superb in red and silver..yes they are tight inside....you cannot blame todays engineers, thats down to stephenson and his silly 4ft 8 standard gauge and the tiny 9ft interior width...
 

WatcherZero

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Also track maintenence is a factor, you maintain it to the standard required by the rolling stock, track carrying faster trains will be maintained to a higher standard.
 

Class 92

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i suspect that at 140mph the ride is hell of alot better, the 225 fleet had to have the bogies fine tuned due to rough riding. the SIG bogie rides better at high speed..

finally - We have to thank the APT Boys in Derby for their work, without them we wouldnt have the west coast tilters, albeit built under the Fiat Licence by alstom and bombardier for demu tilters. They have their grandparents heritage built in..

I think they look superb in red and silver..yes they are tight inside....you cannot blame todays engineers, thats down to stephenson and his silly 4ft 8 standard gauge and the tiny 9ft interior width...

It was built in Crewe?
 

jimm

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Ironically they may yet reach 140mph, but on the ECML instead.

With anything to do with Alliance's schemes, let's wait and see. The latest announcement about GNER from Arriva - about plans for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire routes - lists the following as a 'key feature' of the plan.

investment in a fleet of new Hitachi Super Express 140mph capable trains

Full announcement:

http://www.arriva.co.uk/media_centr...uary/140227-gnerdirectexpress.aspx?sc_lang=en

I think they look superb in red and silver..yes they are tight inside....you cannot blame todays engineers, thats down to stephenson and his silly 4ft 8 standard gauge and the tiny 9ft interior width...

You can't really blame Stephenson for all the bridges and tunnels built by others which are the key constraint on the dimensions of UK rolling stock. There is plenty of much roomier stock running on 4ft 8in track in the rest of the world.
 

Bushy

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At least the 390s get a chance to stretch their legs on WCML.
A journey from Ashford, Kent (sorry International) to Crewe.
AFK to STP; 395 on HS1; 56m09ch; 0h38min; 88.6mph.
EUS to CRE; 390 on WCML; 158m03ch;1h30min; 105.4mph

Regards

Bushy
 

cjmillsnun

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You can't really blame Stephenson for all the bridges and tunnels built by others which are the key constraint on the dimensions of UK rolling stock. There is plenty of much roomier stock running on 4ft 8in track in the rest of the world.

Actually you can blame the Stephensons. They were responsible for the Liverpool - Manchester, London - Birmingham and Grand Junction Railways (the last 2 being a major part of the WCML). Their tunnels and bridges and deciding that the tracks should have a 6ft gap between them determined the UK loading gauge. Had Brunel had his way then we probably would have much roomier trains.
 
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krus_aragon

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Actually you can blame the Stephensons. They were responsible for the Liverpool - Manchester, London - Birmingham and Grand Junction Railways (the last 2 being a major part of the WCML). Their tunnels and bridges and deciding that the tracks should have a 6ft gap between them determined the UK loading gauge.

Am I not right in thinking that Stephenson originally laid the running lines (of either the Stockton & Darlington or Liverpool & Manchester) 4ft 8in apart, so that a train could run down the middle for oversize loads? Of course, the fact that it would effectively turn the railway into a single line meant that it wasn't practical once the route got moderately busy, and then they spaced the lines out instead.
 

LateThanNever

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Am I not right in thinking that Stephenson originally laid the running lines (of either the Stockton & Darlington or Liverpool & Manchester) 4ft 8in apart, so that a train could run down the middle for oversize loads? Of course, the fact that it would effectively turn the railway into a single line meant that it wasn't practical once the route got moderately busy, and then they spaced the lines out instead.

Surely the gauge was just stagecoach gauge?
 

cjmillsnun

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Am I not right in thinking that Stephenson originally laid the running lines (of either the Stockton & Darlington or Liverpool & Manchester) 4ft 8in apart, so that a train could run down the middle for oversize loads? Of course, the fact that it would effectively turn the railway into a single line meant that it wasn't practical once the route got moderately busy, and then they spaced the lines out instead.

Yes that was the case. Hence it went to 6' instead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Surely the gauge was just stagecoach gauge?

No the gauge was based on the tramways used in the mines in Northumberland.
 
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