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The AC Electrics: Classes 80-85, 86, 87

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Inversnecky

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What was the correct evacuation procedure in a fire like that? The loco is obviously too far gone to be moved away, so do you get everyone onto the track (and pray), or retreat to the end coach and wait?
Good point.

Would the driver(s) have got out quickly, not taking a chance? If this sort of thing was not unprecedented in the Rorarers, you'd imagine they'd have had some sort of prior briefing about the possibility
 
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d9009alycidon

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Occurs to me to wonder - did any other NBL locos outlive the Class 84 in operational service?

I wonder if the class 84s were more badly specified than badly built as although it is well known that the NBL did not handle the transfer from steam to diesel and electric they did have experience of building the 3 kV DC Class 4E electric locomotive for the South African Railways (SAR) in 1952 and 1953. These were delivered between 1952 and 1954 and were numbered in the range from E219 to E258. This class of locomotives lasted into the 1990s at least and although they had initial teething issues with the bogies were generally successful.
 

Merle Haggard

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I wonder if the class 84s were more badly specified than badly built as although it is well known that the NBL did not handle the transfer from steam to diesel and electric they did have experience of building the 3 kV DC Class 4E electric locomotive for the South African Railways (SAR) in 1952 and 1953. These were delivered between 1952 and 1954 and were numbered in the range from E219 to E258. This class of locomotives lasted into the 1990s at least and although they had initial teething issues with the bogies were generally successful.

Although I had some experience of class 84 failures on the 'Cobbler' services to be fair to NBL the cause always seemed to be electrical - the symptom being the roarer no longer roaring, particularly after a neutral section - rather than mechanical.
The problem with NBL diesels seemed to be the construction of MAN designed engines requiring high accuracy in machining and fitting using a workforce used to steam loco tolerances of fit.
 

Taunton

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The problem with NBL diesels seemed to be the construction of MAN designed engines requiring high accuracy in machining and fitting using a workforce used to steam loco tolerances of fit.
The view from the Taunton fitters was that the NBL Warships were much of a muchness with the Swindon ones, but what issues they had took far longer to resolve because NBL had used a lot of their own items instead of buying proprietary ones, and having gone bankrupt they were difficult to get (some of them Swindon had to reverse-engineer and then hand make). The actual engines were much the same size and scope (in Germany they were fully interchangeable, and it was common for locos there to be running with one from each manufacturer) but the rest of the engine room was NBL design and specification. At least with the electric locos the electrical manufacturer was still around.

The D63xx were a different matter; given NBL's two separate major works in Glasgow, possibly they were built in the opposite works, but the actual assembly was poor and they even varied between different locos. They also had less in common with the Warships than you might imagine, with many different parts. Most of their unreliability was with the minor accessories and the items of NBL design around the engines, like the exhaust manifolds, the fuel pumps, etc. One Taunton fitter actually fixed some minor D63xx part with spares from his modelmaking workshop at home! It came back on Taunton shed a year later, he had a look, and it was all still there and working ...
 

WesternLancer

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I wonder if the class 84s were more badly specified than badly built as although it is well known that the NBL did not handle the transfer from steam to diesel and electric they did have experience of building the 3 kV DC Class 4E electric locomotive for the South African Railways (SAR) in 1952 and 1953. These were delivered between 1952 and 1954 and were numbered in the range from E219 to E258. This class of locomotives lasted into the 1990s at least and although they had initial teething issues with the bogies were generally successful.
Thanks - interesting to read
 

43096

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I wonder if the class 84s were more badly specified than badly built as although it is well known that the NBL did not handle the transfer from steam to diesel and electric they did have experience of building the 3 kV DC Class 4E electric locomotive for the South African Railways (SAR) in 1952 and 1953. These were delivered between 1952 and 1954 and were numbered in the range from E219 to E258. This class of locomotives lasted into the 1990s at least and although they had initial teething issues with the bogies were generally successful.
Badly specified by who, though? BR set the same specification for all of Classes AL1-5.
 

randyrippley

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Although I had some experience of class 84 failures on the 'Cobbler' services to be fair to NBL the cause always seemed to be electrical - the symptom being the roarer no longer roaring, particularly after a neutral section - rather than mechanical.
The problem with NBL diesels seemed to be the construction of MAN designed engines requiring high accuracy in machining and fitting using a workforce used to steam loco tolerances of fit.
I suggest you read the list of NBL problems in the 22s in this old post of mine
 

Merle Haggard

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I suggest you read the list of NBL problems in the 22s in this old post of mine

Point taken, but the long list of problems mainly concerns the M.A.N. engines built under licence. The electrical equipment in the AL2s was, I think, bought in from specialised suppliers, so all NBL could be blamed for was failures of bogies or the structure (underframe/body/cabs). I believe that B.R., not NBL, specified the electrical equipment.
From the introduction in 1974 until they ceased, sadly my commute home relied upon the Northampton 'Cobbler' loco hauled services. There was one summer (late 1970s - early 1980s) when the service I caught was either seriously late or pined (terminated short of destination) on average about 3 days a week, almost always due to loco problems. We 'enjoyed' a variety of electric traction, and 81s to 85s were all represented (we were never allowed an '86'). It wasn't only the 84s that were unreliable...
 

randyrippley

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Point taken, but the long list of problems mainly concerns the M.A.N. engines built under licence. The electrical equipment in the AL2s was, I think, bought in from specialised suppliers, so all NBL could be blamed for was failures of bogies or the structure (underframe/body/cabs). I believe that B.R., not NBL, specified the electrical equipment.
From the introduction in 1974 until they ceased, sadly my commute home relied upon the Northampton 'Cobbler' loco hauled services. There was one summer (late 1970s - early 1980s) when the service I caught was either seriously late or pined (terminated short of destination) on average about 3 days a week, almost always due to loco problems. We 'enjoyed' a variety of electric traction, and 81s to 85s were all represented (we were never allowed an '86'). It wasn't only the 84s that were unreliable...
NBL had a lot of other problems as well
Their machine tools were 1920-30s vintage, worn out, imperial making precision engineering impossible.
When the electrics were built they hadn't even mastered stressed-skin body construction, so the 84 had to be built as an overweight solebar design
 

Grumpy

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NBL had a lot of other problems as well
Their machine tools were 1920-30s vintage, worn out, imperial making precision engineering impossible.
When the electrics were built they hadn't even mastered stressed-skin body construction, so the 84 had to be built as an overweight solebar design
With the exception of the class 83 (and that marginally), the 84's were comfortably lighter than the other manufacturers' ac prototypes.
 

tbwbear

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Apologies for a very trivial question - it is Friday -

Any particular reason why the 84s got the oval buffers ?
 
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There were some early sub-classes as well, which seem forgotten nowadays; the last five locos numerically, E3096-3100, were variants of the other ones, with different gearing for freight. Initially numbered E3301-05, they hardly seem to have been used as such (or even photographed), and they soon got regeared to be the same as the others and renumbered at the end of the series.
 

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nw1

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A bit late, but the WCML AC electrics encapsulated the 'romance of rail' back in 1983/84 or thereabouts.

Being used to Southern Region commuter rail, seeing these long distance InterCity services seemed incredibly exciting - bear in mind then I was too young to travel around independently much, so these trains had an air of mystique about them, going to far-flung destinations such as Glasgow - however I had relatives at Stafford and consequently used to spend some time on Stafford Station observing these services.

I was allowed to travel on my own from Guildford to Stafford on the Cross-Country a couple of occasions, which always seemed a very exciting journey - including the loco-change from 47 to either 85 or 86 at New Street. Cross-country these days, in contrast, is an ordeal to be got through as quickly as possible!

I suppose it's a symptom of getting older, but the 'romance of rail' has been lost in the UK now, though I still get that same feeling even now when going to or within continental Europe on the train.
 
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