The AC Electrics: Classes 80-85, 86, 87

[david1212]

Bham International? How did they load the cars?

Side loaded off the platform adjacent to the surface car park.

 

[Western Sunset]

Cecil J Allen, inveterate longstanding old school train timer right through from the pre-grouping era to the 1970s (he was on board Mallard's 126mph), and long used to steam and then Class 40 performance out of Euston, took his first run in 1966 in the week the mainstream Liverpool/Manchester service started. His heading in his Modern Railways column was "93mph at Willesden - Going Down!". He felt it was like something from a parallel universe.

Although invited by Sir Nigel to travel on what became the world record run, C J Allen was otherwise engaged that day, so was unable to be present on that famous journey.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Interesting to read - so even if overnight on motorail you could choose (subject to payment) seated carriages or sleepers. I was certainly unaware of that. Thanks for posting it.

Not all Motorail services offered that, although I think most did, but some were Sleeping Cars only which and some of these on the longer journeys included a TSO in the formation so that passengers had somewhere to sit - and perhaps to consume tray meals - until bed time .

I had an idea there were some where the same set worked one way overnight and the other way daytime (with the sleepers out of use) but making efficient use of the car carriers but I am struggling to trace such a train.

 

[Phil G]

It’s not surprising that Class 84s made rare appearances on top link InterCity services

First time I ever saw or was hauled by an electric was an 84 (001 I think) in 1976 when I travelled from Bristol to Manchester for my brother's wedding.

Bristol to Birmingham was a peak and the 84 took over from BHM.

Saw my first 44 Scafell Pike that day, my first 20 and 40 what a fantastic time it was then. My parents put me on the train and they went by car, I was 14.

 

[WesternLancer]

Not all Motorail services offered that, although I think most did, but some were Sleeping Cars only which and some of these on the longer journeys included a TSO in the formation so that passengers had somewhere to sit - and perhaps to consume tray meals - until bed time .

I had an idea there were some where the same set worked one way overnight and the other way daytime (with the sleepers out of use) but making efficient use of the car carriers but I am struggling to trace such a train.

Thanks - interesting to read about that.

Although invited by Sir Nigel to travel on what became the world record run, C J Allen was otherwise engaged that day, so was unable to be present on that famous journey.

In this Andrew Martin claims CJ A declined because it was a sunday, implication it was faith related choice.

Belles and Whistles: Five Journeys Through Time on Brit…

In the heroic days of rail travel, you could dine on ki…

www.goodreads.com

Happen to be reading it at the moment!

 

[Revaulx]

The 84s having been built by a terminally declining NBL clearly didn't help their reliability, but I don't think the GEC electrical equipment was up to much either. The AM5s were also GEC-equipped and had lots of problems in their early days, unlike the similar but EE-equipped AM8s.

 

[Inversnecky]

Some interesting shots from above.

Various shots detailing the innards, including the troublesome mercury arc rectifier:

At the risk of cross contaminating two topics...

Most Unreliable Locomotive

Appreciate the time taken to recount this litany of failure! Not sure if you've perused the thread on the AC electrics (81-87) on the Nostalgia and History subforum, but have you any experience with the 84s? These were supposed to be particularly unreliable? Yes the 84s were poor. I only had...

www.railforums.co.uk

The forum has automerged my last three posts, jumbling three distinct comments. Hope they can still be made sense of!

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The forum has automerged my last three posts, jumbling three distinct comments. Hope they can still be made sense of!

if you use the 'edit' function you can cut and paste as (and if) you feel necessary. It took me a few tries to work this one out!

 

[Inversnecky]

if you use the 'edit' function you can cut and paste as (and if) you feel necessary. It took me a few tries to work this one out!

Thanks for the tip. I can see the desire for forum tidiness, but when you are replying to distinct comments and the responses get thrown together, it looks like you're all over the place.

Pictures are still all at the end though, can't be separated out though?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Thanks for the tip. I can see the desire for forum tidiness, but when you are replying to distinct comments and the responses get thrown together, it looks like you're all over the place.

Pictures are still all at the end though, can't be separated out though?

Afraid I can't help on that element, unless you delete and reload in the required locations. Others may know a better way?

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks for the tip. I can see the desire for forum tidiness, but when you are replying to distinct comments and the responses get thrown together, it looks like you're all over the place.

Pictures are still all at the end though, can't be separated out though?

Then I would suggest quoting a post you want to reply to, add your reply. Then quote the next person and add the reply to that and so on.

At least that way you have the original posts you are replying to to illustrate exactly what your own post's sections relate to.

 

[Inversnecky]

Does anyone recognise this?

What happened here?

 

[Richard Scott]

Does anyone recognise this?

What happened here?

Expect the oil in the transformer overheated and ignited. Seems to happen more frequently as locos get older and maintenance ignored. Look at the French 25500s, quite a few went the same way in last couple of years as SNCF got a few more years out of them as cheaply as possible. Must admit I am speculating here.

 

[Bald Rick]

Wires are down, probably a symptom rather than cause.

 

[hexagon789]

Does anyone recognise this?

What happened here?

Nothing unusual for that class, that's what happened there!

 

[Beebman]

Does anyone recognise this?

What happened here?

I've found a photo of a tarpaulin-covered 85001 under tow on Flickr, is it the same loco?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/21611052@N02/6123392182

Caption:

85001 was damaged by fire on the 13th October 1985 whilst in charge of the 16:15 Euston-Manchester service. Repair costs were deemed to high and it was withdrawn four days later finally succumbing to the cutters torch at MC Metals, Glasgow, in April 1989.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Expect the oil in the transformer overheated and ignited. Seems to happen more frequently as locos get older and maintenance ignored. Look at the French 25500s, quite a few went the same way in last couple of years as SNCF got a few more years out of them as cheaply as possible. Must admit I am speculating here.

Transformer fires happened even when the locos were fairly new; the first occasion when a loco was damaged by fire beyond economic repair was AL2 E3055 in September 1966, and I mentioned E3046 in Jan '71 above.
I think that the cabs were steel (for crash protection) but the main body was aluminium on the AL1 - 5s; after its fire, all that remained of E3046's bodywork were the two cabs, the body having melted in the fire.
It's possible that there were earlier fires and the loco(s) concerned were repaired because of their young age.

 

[CW2]

Back in 1981 I got a job as a booking boy / assistant controller in Willesden power box. At that time the fast line tunnels at Kensal Green were closed for a period of maintenance / renewals. Having reported to the Area Manager's Office at Willesden, the Area Operations Manager walked me across to Willesden PSB to introduce me to the shift manager. As we entered the box, it was apparent that all hell was breaking loose. A class 81-85 hauled passenger train had just entered Kensal Green Tunnel on the Up Slow when its transformer had exploded, with the top of the transformer being ejected through the roof of the loco, bringing down the overheads. The job was just a little bit stopped.
"Welcome to Willesden PSB" was a phrase I didn't hear that day! I only wish I had recorded which loco was involved.

 

[hexagon789]

I've found a photo of a tarpaulin-covered 85001 under tow on Flickr, is it the same loco?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/21611052@N02/6123392182

Caption:

85s usually seemed to be the better class among the 'roarers', unlike the 84s which seemed to go bang fairly regularly.

 

[Inversnecky]

Expect the oil in the transformer overheated and ignited. Seems to happen more frequently as locos get older and maintenance ignored.

That sort of fire happened more frequently?

You can see the heads of the passengers craning out the windows and looking toward the loco.

If I was one of them, I'd probably never want to be hauled by an electric loco ever again!

 

[Cowley]

Does anyone recognise this?

What happened here?

Oh dear, someone left the toast in too long...

 

[Ash Bridge]

I've found a photo of a tarpaulin-covered 85001 under tow on Flickr, is it the same loco?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/21611052@N02/6123392182

Caption:

That has to be a good contender! slightly OT but the caption mentions stopped on the down slow, doesn’t that track it’s sat on look just a little bit below par for a piece of WCML slow line or is it just my eyes?

 

[Cowley]

That has to be a good contender! slightly OT but the caption mentions stopped on the down slow, doesn’t that track it’s sat on look just a little bit below par for a piece of WCML slow line or is it just my eyes?

Yes it doesn’t look great does it?

 

[hexagon789]

Oh dear, someone left the toast in too long...

I hate it when that happens!

That has to be a good contender! slightly OT but the caption mentions stopped on the down slow, doesn’t that track it’s sat on look just a little bit below par for a piece of WCML slow line or is it just my eyes?

It's also jointed, I thought part of the WCML electrification works also saw off the last of the jointed stuff on the mainline

 

[Merle Haggard]

That has to be a good contender! slightly OT but the caption mentions stopped on the down slow, doesn’t that track it’s sat on look just a little bit below par for a piece of WCML slow line or is it just my eyes?

If it's at Wolverton, it must be in the sidings on the up side of the slow lines - these gave access to the stone terminal. The up slow must be the track with concrete sleepers on the extreme left.
But my memory is that there was only one track on the stone siding, and I don't recognise the background as looking like Wolverton.

 

[jfollows]

If it's at Wolverton, it must be in the sidings on the up side of the slow lines - these gave access to the stone terminal. The up slow must be the track with concrete sleepers on the extreme left.
But my memory is that there was only one track on the stone siding, and I don't recognise the background as looking like Wolverton.

I did think "Wolverton" when I saw it, attached is a track plan dating from around 1966 (put it this way, from before Hanslope Junction for sure).

 

[Merle Haggard]

I did think "Wolverton" when I saw it, attached is a track plan dating from around 1966 (put it this way, from before Hanslope Junction for sure).

Thanks for that. My memory of the works sidings was that they were between the down slow and up fast, but the map corrects me they were between the down and up slow. So the down slow is the concrete sleepered track on the left and the up slow the most distant track.
By the way, the stone siding was originally served by going around two sides of the triangle (the old Newport branch) shown on the 1966 map, but was simplified about 1980 to be accessed by a straight siding alongside the up slow.
I went past Wolverton twice every day I was at work for 30 years, but still had difficulty placing it

Presumably the Shark was used because it was braked (LM brake fitted brake vans were usually piped) but traffic guards objected to riding in them (short wheelbase) and a traffic brake was used behind the Shark on the main line. Maybe the guard is unhappy; also the back brake hose doesn't seem to be on the stop...

 

[jfollows]

Thanks for that. My memory of the works sidings was that they were between the down slow and up fast, but the map corrects me they were between the down and up slow. So the down slow is the concrete sleepered track on the left and the up slow the most distant track.
behind the Shark on the main line. Maybe the guard is unhappy; also the back brake hose doesn't seem to be on the stop...

Ah, good, thank you. That's just about where I'd got to also, so the number of lines and type of sleepers looks about right.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Thank you for your explanations chaps!

 

[randyrippley]

Does anyone recognise this?

What happened here?

What was the correct evacuation procedure in a fire like that? The loco is obviously too far gone to be moved away, so do you get everyone onto the track (and pray), or retreat to the end coach and wait?