Green tractor
Member
I am in favour of mandatory masks, for the time being yes, but I accept that they are no longer mandatory in England and I am not trying to change that.
If I saw roughly the proportion of people who are immunocompromised (perhaps multiplied by a factor of about 5) wearing effective masks in an environment where masks were optional and with everyone else maskless that wouldn't bother me.Has @yorkie ever maintained that he has any problem with seeing other people wearing masks as you claim below?
This is a rather contradictory stance.I am in favour of mandatory masks, for the time being yes, but I accept that they are no longer mandatory in England and I am not trying to change that.
I am in favour of mandatory masks, for the time being yes, but I accept that they are no longer mandatory in England and I am not trying to change that.
I am in favour of mandatory masks, for the time being yes, but I accept that they are no longer mandatory in England and I am not trying to change that.
Yes, it certainly was a misunderstanding.If you can't see how saying things won't return to normal would make people upset, then I think that's a fundamental problem. I am glad it turns out to be a misunderstanding though.
Then why are you making it seem like these incidents are the norm then? Such as saying ‘infested’ with virtue signallers.A lot of it is about perception and the worst incidents will be relatively isolated and not the norm.
Every pub I visited in Scotland, from Edinburgh, Aberdeen to Inverness. Ranging from traditional pubs to craft beer places. Obviously, a bit different there considering it is still law.Which pubs were almost fully masked? I'd like to visit and see for myself as I find this hard to believe.
You won’t know that for sure.I suspect those others were a tiny minority.
Sarcastic and aggressive remarks, and those which do not contribute to a healthy debate.Is what OK exactly?
Virtue signallers don't necessarily cause aggressive incidents. They are not one and the same thing.Yes, it certainly was a misunderstanding.
Then why are you making it seem like these incidents are the norm then? Such as saying ‘infested’ with virtue signallers.
Ah so that's not been by choice then.Every pub I visited in Scotland, from Edinburgh, Aberdeen to Inverness. Ranging from traditional pubs to craft beer places. Obviously, a bit different there considering it is still law.
If anyone else is able to visit these pubs it would be interesting to see others observations (though it really belongs in the observations thread); next time I am in the area I will try to visit if I can to see for myself as I find it very hard to believe.It has also been the case when visiting pubs in London. Such as the Exmouth Arms in Clerkenwell, and Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese off Fleet Street.
I've been in plenty of pubs all over England lately and it's really not something I see since the lifting of the mandate.In Liverpool, the Dead Crafty Beer Co.
In Canterbury, the Unicorn, the Foundry and Pegasus.
Other pubs I’ve been in have been almost completely maskless (and no, I didn’t find it a problem and didn’t judge those who didn’t wear one)
The idea that there are more than a small number of people who are both well informed about the effectiveness of vaccines and who still don't want to return to normal life doesn't seem likely to me.You won’t know that for sure.
Unfortunately this is the new culture war and therefore it's inevitably going to be toxic. It's not okay but my point was that it's unfair to just blame those who are opposed to mandatory masks, when those who seek to mandate or coerce others into wearing masks are the root cause of this new culture war.Sarcastic and aggressive remarks, and those which do not contribute to a healthy debate.
I’m not sure why you can’t see that the terminology you used is just like an overreactive tabloid.Virtue signallers don't necessarily cause aggressive incidents. They are not one and the same thing.
No, but see my other examples.Ah so that's not been by choice then.
So they can prove me wrong you mean? It would seem extraordinary to visit those places just to do that. But, go ahead if you want to.If anyone else is able to visit these pubs it would be interesting to see others observations (though it really belongs in the observations thread); next time I am in the area I will try to visit if I can to see for myself as I find it very hard to believe.
Like I said, depends on the pub.I've been in plenty of pubs all over England lately and it's really not something I see since the lifting of the mandate.
Here we go again with just assuming anyone in a mask is misled, a virtue signaller or been pressured into it. Why don’t you just say ‘stupid people’? Again, there is evidence on both sides of this argument which I have linked before.But if people are wearing them to enter pubs that's not a sign that they are doing so because they need additional protection so it would make me wonder why they are doing it: are they virtue signalling or have they been mislead or do they feel pressured?
Your opinion.The idea that people think it's a good idea to enter a pub while wearing a flimsy mask and doing so voluntarily doesn't seem likely to me; at least not of they are well informed.
Unfortunately people who just dismiss anyone in a mask as a ‘virtue signaller’, ‘misled’ or ‘pressured’ are also not helping to stop the culture war.Unfortunately this is the new culture war and therefore it's inevitably going to be toxic. It's not okay but my point was that it's unfair to just blame those who are opposed to mandatory masks, when those who seek to mandate or coerce others into wearing masks are the root cause of this new culture war.
So your comments along the lines of “why does it bother you that others wear masks” were in bad faith, since by your own admission it bothers you that people don’t.I am in favour of mandatory masks, for the time being yes
Not those pubs exactly, but I've been on a pub crawl around Borough Market/Cannon Street/Blackfriars and a night out in Shoreditch over the past week and mask wearing was minimal even though most places were fairing busy. In Shoreditch, mask wearing was completely non-existent.If anyone else is able to visit these pubs it would be interesting to see others observations (though it really belongs in the observations thread); next time I am in the area I will try to visit if I can to see for myself as I find it very hard to believe.
In order to assist the forum I am happy to visit these pubs and carry out the research. Are expenses available??If anyone else is able to visit these pubs it would be interesting to see others observations (though it really belongs in the observations thread); next time I am in the area I will try to visit if I can to see for myself as I find it very hard to believe.
Yeah I'll join you hahaIn order to assist the forum I am happy to visit these pubs and carry out the research. Are expenses available??
ThanksIf I saw roughly the proportion of people who are immunocompromised (perhaps multiplied by a factor of about 5) wearing effective masks in an environment where masks were optional and with everyone else maskless that wouldn't bother me.
What does bother me is seeing clear evidence of people either virtue signalling, or victims of coercion, misleading information or simply being guilted into wearing them. And sadly I am seeing evidence of this in some settings, notably long distance trains and some shops.
This is a rather contradictory stance.
Out of interest what type of masks do you wish to be mandated? Will standard flimsy masks do?
I think that comes under "an inconvenient truth".I notice that despite still mandating masks in certain settings in Scotland, cases there are soaring. Hardly a ringing endorsement of their alleged effectiveness is it.
So you only have a problem with people wearing masks in specific settings?It's not like cyclists board trains, enter pubs etc while wearing them! It's another false equivalence.
Has @yorkie ever maintained that he has any problem with seeing other people wearing masks who are quietly minding their own business as you claim below?
"The real question here is why you have such a problem seeing other people wearing face masks, its up to them, and doesn't affect you in the slightest."
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...servations-and-compliance.220043/post-5249063 On my XC HST yesterday morning, it was disconcerting to see mask usage at over 50% in my coach and the Train Manager was making inappropriate announcements about "respect" which was most unwelcome, but when I went to get out at Wakefield, everyone in the vestibule (who also got off) was unmasked and most people at the station were unmasked too, so that made me feel more positive
Why is is contradictory to accept that The government hasn't done as I would of wished? If the candidate I vote for in a election doesn't get elected, I dont go on and on about it or get angry, I just accept it, and accept that I don't get a say in that result until it is time to vote again.This is a rather contradictory stance.
Out of interest what type of masks do you wish to be mandated? Will standard flimsy masks do?
There are a few problems with that. 1st if you tried to get hold of FFP3 masks last summer you would find they were in short supply (we use them at work.) encouraging the use of them makes the situation worse and would push the price up. Where do you draw the line on clinically vulnerable, can you define this? What about the other people in their households? Do these people have to buy them themselves of is the NHS/Government providing them (They are a few pounds each.) Do we all need to know that the chap sat in seat 5A on the bus is clinically vulnerable and is he happy with us knowing that?Why didn’t the government simply recommend effective FFP3 masks for the clinically vulnerable, and free choice for everyone else?
It seems to me that face coverings aren’t really about protection at all, but more about behavioural science and manipulation.
There are guilty parties on both sides, meanwhile Most of us just accept the situation and get on with our lives. Trying to blame one side for stoking up the argument is just, well er stoking up the argument.Unfortunately this is the new culture war and therefore it's inevitably going to be toxic. It's not okay but my point was that it's unfair to just blame those who are opposed to mandatory masks, when those who seek to mandate or coerce others into wearing masks are the root cause of this new culture war.
It doesn't bother me that people dont, I wish they did, but I respect that that is their right, and masks are no longer mandatory.So your comments along the lines of “why does it bother you that others wear masks” were in bad faith, since by your own admission it bothers you that people don’t.
I have a problem with the culture of the pro-mask activists of providing misleading information, shaming/coercing/forcing people into wearing masks.So you only have a problem with people wearing masks in specific settings?
What exactly are you arguing for then?Why is is contradictory to accept that The government hasn't done as I would of wished? If the candidate I vote for in a election doesn't get elected, I dont go on and on about it or get angry, I just accept it, and accept that I don't get a say in that result until it is time to vote again.
I refer you to the BBC article.Could you please define what exactly a 'standard flimsy mask' is please.
I don't see much point in arguing about the past. The vaccines are highly effective for the vast majority of people including those who are deemed clinically vulnerable; the group they are the least effective in is the immunocompromised group, which is to be expected but even then they are pretty effective (see the vaccine updates thread where this was discussed a few weeks ago).There are a few problems with that. 1st if you tried to get hold of FFP3 masks last summer you would find they were in short supply (we use them at work.) encouraging the use of them makes the situation worse and would push the price up. Where do you draw the line on clinically vulnerable, can you define this? What about the other people in their households?
It is up to each person to make their own choice. Why does anyone need to know?Do these people have to buy them themselves of is the NHS/Government providing them (They are a few pounds each.) Do we all need to know that the chap sat in seat 5A on the bus is clinically vulnerable and is he happy with us knowing that?
I'm prepared to accept the Government line of personal choice but if anyone believes masks should be mandated then I'm going to disagree with them and I am also going to disagree with any individual or organisation (such as LNER for example) who attempts to shame or coerce people into wearing them. I am not going to accept such behaviour.There are guilty parties on both sides, meanwhile Most of us just accept the situation and get on with our lives.
I refer you to my previous posts on this matter.Trying to blame one side for stoking up the argument is just, well er stoking up the argument.
Then why are you continuing to argue?It doesn't bother me that people dont, I wish they did, but I respect that that is their right, and masks are no longer mandatory.
You do like making this personal and deflecting from the actual matter in hand don't you? My signature was worded to mean that getting vaccinated enables us to live normally; that was certainly supposed to be the case (and ultimately it will be). I've given my view multiple times on vaccinations and I have repeatedly said I strongly believe people should get vaccinated but it cannot be forced upon people. I've spoken out against vaccine passports for domestic purposes.Incidentally while Yorkie doesn't like being told what to do, until recently his signiture line on this forum said 'get vaccinated' which is clearly an instruction like 'wear a mask.'
Seriously, if you think anything but a small minortiy people don't want to get back to normal, that is just absurd. Those who wish to live in a perpetual state of abnormality but don't seek to stop the rest of us getting back to norrmal are free to do so if that's what they want, but those who seek to repress us will not win. The vast majority want normality and we are going to get it, whether you or anyone else wants it or not.His current signature line says ' It's time to get back to normal; those who seek to repress us must be defeated.' It is up to individuals when they want to get back to normal, and it is up to indviduals who they choose to pick a fight with
Which terminology are you objecting to?I’m not sure why you can’t see that the terminology you used is just like an overreactive tabloid.
It does not match the experiences that everyone else I know of who has been to a pub lately, so I am highly sceptical, but I will look into seeing if I or others I know can verify these claims.So they can prove me wrong you mean? It would seem extraordinary to visit those places just to do that. But, go ahead if you want to.
Maybe it was just a co-incidence that so many people were wearing masks. Maybe if you went now, the levels would be less. And, like I said, many pubs have had most people without masks. Depends on the pub.
Like I said, depends on the pub.
Why else would anyone wear a flimsy mask? If they were well informed about the effectiveness of masks and felt they needed additional protection, they'd wear an FFP2/3 mask, surely?Here we go again with just assuming anyone in a mask is misled, a virtue signaller or been pressured into it. Why don’t you just say ‘stupid people’? Again, there is evidence on both sides of this argument which I have linked before
Your opinion.
Unfortunately people who just dismiss anyone in a mask as a ‘virtue signaller’, ‘misled’ or ‘pressured’ are also not helping to stop the culture war.
Thanks; this is the experience of myself and everyone else who I've asked.Not those pubs exactly, but I've been on a pub crawl around Borough Market/Cannon Street/Blackfriars and a night out in Shoreditch over the past week and mask wearing was minimal even though most places were fairing busy. In Shoreditch, mask wearing was completely non-existent.
Indeed. I expect the pro-mask apologists to ignore this though!I notice that despite still mandating masks in certain settings in Scotland, cases there are soaring. Hardly a ringing endorsement of their alleged effectiveness is it.
You were saying this country is ‘infested’ with ‘virtue signallers’.Which terminology are you objecting to?
Clearly I must be lying with my experiences then. Yet again, let me make it clear that it has depended on the pub.It does not match the experiences that everyone else I know of who has been to a pub lately, so I am highly sceptical, but I will look into seeing if I or others I know can verify these claims.
That’s what I do.Why else would anyone wear a flimsy mask? If they were well informed about the effectiveness of masks and felt they needed additional protection, they'd wear an FFP2/3 mask, surely?
Again, I’m clearly lying then.Thanks; this is the experience of myself and everyone else who I've asked.
Because wearing a mask has been commonly touted as “respectful” and “safe”. People who deliberately chose to wear one (when not necessary) and equally post a photo of themselves wearing one online shows that they want people to recognise they are being “respectful” and “safe” (in other words, they’re virtue signallers)I fail to see how someone posting a photo of themselves wearing a mask can be considered "virtue signalling". It's no different that someone posting a photo of themselves wearing a hat.
I fail to see how someone posting a photo of themselves wearing a mask can be considered "virtue signalling". It's no different that someone posting a photo of themselves wearing a hat.
Or it could just be a case of they've taken a photo of themselves with a mask on perhaps? I've taken selfies with my mask on plenty of times, not because I want to "virtue signal" but because I couldn't be bothered to take the thing off. Nothing more, nothing less.
I fail to see how someone posting a photo of themselves wearing a mask can be considered "virtue signalling". It's no different that someone posting a photo of themselves wearing a hat.
It doesn't bother me that people dont, I wish they did, but I respect that that is their right, and masks are no longer mandatory
I am in favour of mandatory masks, for the time being yes
Indeed, respecting people's rights is generally concurrent with agreeing that they should have those rights.I’m sorry but I don’t see how that response is consistent with:
The word “mandatory” means that people don’t have the right to choose.
I notice that despite still mandating masks in certain settings in Scotland, cases there are soaring. Hardly a ringing endorsement of their alleged effectiveness is it.
You can respect someone’s wishes without agreeing with it.Indeed, respecting people's rights is generally concurrent with agreeing that they should have those rights.
What really bugs me is the messaging in some shops and on some trains, for example some Guards on LNER & others trying to coerce people into wearing them and implying people are being inconsiderate if they don't, not to mention spreading misinformation. While such behaviour continues, I will continue to make the case against their diktat.You can respect someone’s wishes without agreeing with it.
There’s a difference between staying respectful by keeping something to yourself and confronting someone about it.
If by "it" we mean "the fact that masks are not mandatory", then no, I don't think that's a reconcilable position.You can respect someone’s wishes without agreeing with it.