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The Clansman

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Hello all,

Can someone tell me when ''The Clansman'' service (or at least the train that went from Inverness to London Euston) was stopped? I'm guessing it was the early 90s but could be wrong.

Thanks
 
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greyman42

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I believe it was withdrawn in May 1984 when it was replaced on the east coast by the Highland Chieftain.
 

CW2

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I believe it was withdrawn in May 1984 when it was replaced on the east coast by the Highland Chieftain.
No, it was later than that. Both the Clansman and the Chieftain ran together for some time.
I'm not sure when the Clansman lost its name, and it changed route and departure time several times over the years, but there was still a through daytime Euston - Inverness and vice versa running as late as 1990.
 

172007

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I am sure that roughly 1992 the Clansman used to run through New St on Saturday mornings at about 10:00. Used to have 3 or 4 motor rail vans on the Front so it was a rough ride duo to them not being close coupled.
 

delt1c

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Can’t say when it stopped but in 1976 travelled on it throughout. This was an amazing daytime journey Scotland to Euston via Birmingham. Plus ( can’t remember the name) but there was a budget meal in the restaurant car that was excellent value. Also the Clansman was the reason that Inverness had its 1st 47/4 allocay
 

hexagon789

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Hello all,

Can someone tell me when ''The Clansman'' service (or at least the train that went from Inverness to London Euston) was stopped? I'm guessing it was the early 90s but could be wrong.

Thanks
Began May 1974 timetable concurrent with extension of electrification to Glasgow.

From May 1984 the Highland Chieftain service started running from King's Cross and it began its general decline.

A brief revival in May 1986 with it running direct instead of via Birmingham albeit being detached as a portion of a Euston/Glasgow saw it timed for 110mph running and gave it its fastest ever schedule though still slower than the Chieftain.

From 1987 it was diverted to run to Edinburgh first and then on to Inverness and it ceased running from Euston in 1992.
 
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CW2

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For a period I recall it ran via Glasgow Queen Street. Was that the May 1986 incarnation (i.e. a portion off a Euston - Glasgow)?

EDIT: Found it in my records. It ran as the 07:35 Taunton - Inverness that year, and did indeed run via Glasgow Queen Street. I don't know how the corresponding southbound service worked.
 

hexagon789

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For a period I recall it ran via Glasgow Queen Street. Was that the May 1986 incarnation (i.e. a portion off a Euston - Glasgow)?

EDIT: Found it in my records. It ran as the 07:35 Taunton - Inverness that year, and did indeed run via Glasgow Queen Street. I don't know how the corresponding southbound service worked.
They were seperate services, the Clansman in 1986 ran as a portion off a standard Euston-Glasgow 110mph Mk3 working, the Taunton (from Paignton on Sats)-Inverness and Inverness-Bristol (Plymouth on Fri) were seperate services though did run via GLQ each way giving an extra service (there were only 3 other day trains in 1986 and one was seasonal).

Can post scans of the HML timetable for 1986 if you like, I have those to hand having already done so previously for someone else elsewhere. Any other years would need me to run up some scans.
 

Mag_seven

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For me "The Clansman" stopped becoming "The Clansman" when it ceased to stop operating via Motherwell/Coatbridge Central/Cumbernauld.

If memory serves me rightly the timings were such that you could have interesting return "Inter-City" trip over the relatively short journey from Coatbridge Central to Motherwell on the southbound changing for the northbound at Motherwell.

You would have three different locos, a 47 to Mossend Yard, an AC electric from Mossend Yard to Motherwell, another AC electric back to Mossend Yard then most likely the same 47 from Mossend Yard back to Coatbridge Central. Watching the loco changes at Mossend from a drop light window was interesting.

All this for the price of a cheap day return from Coatbridge Central to Motherwell.
 

Cheshire Scot

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If memory serves me rightly the timings were such that you could have interesting return "Inter-City" trip over the relatively short journey from Coatbridge Central to Motherwell on the southbound changing for the northbound at Motherwell.
In the May 74 TT this would give the traveller 5 minutes to cross the bridge at Motherwell.

In my memory it retained The Clansman title when running as a portion of a Glasgow Mk3 working. Could be wrong.

Can post scans of the HML timetable for 1986 if you like, I have those to hand having already done so previously for someone else elsewhere. Any other years would need me to run up some scans.
I would be interested to see the HML 86 timetable please!
 

Mag_seven

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In my memory it retained The Clansman title when running as a portion of a Glasgow Mk3 working. Could be wrong.

It did - confirmed by @hexagon789 above:

the Clansman in 1986 ran as a portion off a standard Euston-Glasgow 110mph Mk3 working

It definitely was called the "Clansman" during this period - even the Glasgow portion had the title.
 

hexagon789

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For me "The Clansman" stopped becoming "The Clansman" when it ceased to stop operating via Motherwell/Coatbridge Central/Cumbernauld.

If memory serves me rightly the timings were such that you could have interesting return "Inter-City" trip over the relatively short journey from Coatbridge Central to Motherwell on the southbound changing for the northbound at Motherwell.

You would have three different locos, a 47 to Mossend Yard, an AC electric from Mossend Yard to Motherwell, another AC electric back to Mossend Yard then most likely the same 47 from Mossend Yard back to Coatbridge Central. Watching the loco changes at Mossend from a drop light window was interesting.

All this for the price of a cheap day return from Coatbridge Central to Motherwell.
They later changed at Carstairs instead, I believe from May 1986 as from then it was portion worked either splitting at Carstairs or from 1987 at Edinburgh.


I would be interested to see the HML 86 timetable please!
No worries, can do other years too but these I have to hand - I'd need to dig out and fire up the scanner for the other years I have which I can do if you like but not immediately.

Here's Summer 1986 anyway:

Table 231 Northbound
HML86Nthbound.jpg

Table 231 Southbound
HML86Sthbound.jpg

Hopefully of interest :)



It definitely was called the "Clansman" during this period - even the Glasgow portion had the title.
Indeed, both portions had the name according to the timetable I didn't intend to suggest otherwise, they were -

0745 EUS-GLC/INV
1100 INV/1510 GLC-EUS

All labelled as 'The Clansman'
 

Bevan Price

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For a period I recall it ran via Glasgow Queen Street. Was that the May 1986 incarnation (i.e. a portion off a Euston - Glasgow)?

EDIT: Found it in my records. It ran as the 07:35 Taunton - Inverness that year, and did indeed run via Glasgow Queen Street. I don't know how the corresponding southbound service worked.
There was an Inverness - Bristol service that ran via Queen Street. As the curve near Cowlairs was not then open, Eastfield provided a loco to drag the train out of Queen Street, the train loco then going forward from outside Eastfield depot to Mossend & Motherwell. The Eastfield loco was a "kick-out" job -- anything that was available and workable, so I saw Classes 20, 26 & 27 (non-heat) on that job.
 

cadder toad

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Not directly relevant to OP question but I think the service has a long history before 1974. I think there may have been a daytime service from England through Carlisle and up the Caledonian mainline to Perth or Inverness going back possibly to pre-grouping times, possibly summer only. I remember signallers in the boxes around Coatbridge in the 80's referring to what I would have called "The Clansman" as "The Tourist."
 

hexagon789

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It was 1991. Operated as a seasonal service until privatisation.
It's in my 1992 timetable, still running from Euston. It then afaik became a Scottish internal running Edinburgh-Inverness only bit with IC stock. Unnamed though.

Not directly relevant to OP question but I think the service has a long history before 1974. I think there may have been a daytime service from England through Carlisle and up the Caledonian mainline to Perth or Inverness going back possibly to pre-grouping times, possibly summer only. I remember signallers in the boxes around Coatbridge in the 80's referring to what I would have called "The Clansman" as "The Tourist."
Afaik The Clansman was the first day train all the way from London to Inverness, I believe there was a train to Perth from Birmingham before this, definitely in steam days at least, it may have once run all the way from London.
 

Kendalian

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I filmed the Clansman leaving Inverness in August 1991, then again near Dalwhinnie. Remember it well as it was the first time I'd used a camcorder (a colleague lent me theirs). Happy days
 

hexagon789

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I filmed the Clansman leaving Inverness in August 1991, then again near Dalwhinnie. Remember it well as it was the first time I'd used a camcorder (a colleague lent me theirs). Happy days
Usually a pretty standard WCML Mk2F formation by this point, complete with Mk3A RFM.
 

Cheshire Scot

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Not directly relevant to OP question but I think the service has a long history before 1974. I think there may have been a daytime service from England through Carlisle and up the Caledonian mainline to Perth or Inverness going back possibly to pre-grouping times, possibly summer only. I remember signallers in the boxes around Coatbridge in the 80's referring to what I would have called "The Clansman" as "The Tourist."

Afaik The Clansman was the first day train all the way from London to Inverness, I believe there was a train to Perth from Birmingham before this, definitely in steam days at least,

For some years until just prior to WCML electrification there was a curious imbalance of workings, northbound there was a Crewe/ sometimes Birmingham to Perth, just 5 or 6 coaches, sometimes extended to Aberdeen eg FSO or summer dated, and there was a Euston to Perth which was a portion off, I think, the Midday stock.

Southbound the stock from both trains combined to form a Perth (sometimes Aberdeen) to Euston - not sure if it dropped some of the coaches at Crewe or if these came back to Crewe (or Birmingham) on internal LM service.

These ran until I think the year the Beattock route was impacted by electrification work (I think 1973) when trains from GLC diverted via GSW, and in their place there was a connection to Glasgow Central from either Perth or Dundee via Coatbridge Central and Carmyle.

When the Clansman was introduced in May 74 an additional Aberdeen to Queen St and return was introduced to the timetable (taking the frequency on that axis from 4 per day to 5 per day) which connected into/out of the Clansman for further south at Perth (cross the bridge) or Stirling (same platform)
 
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RT4038

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Not directly relevant to OP question but I think the service has a long history before 1974. I think there may have been a daytime service from England through Carlisle and up the Caledonian mainline to Perth or Inverness going back possibly to pre-grouping times, possibly summer only. I remember signallers in the boxes around Coatbridge in the 80's referring to what I would have called "The Clansman" as "The Tourist."

In Winter 64 there was a 1.23pm Euston-Perth arr 12.29am, conveying Miniature Buffet and Restaurant car throughout. The return departed Perth 12.20pm, due Euston 9.50pm. No Sunday daytime train. Northbound train connection arrived Inverness 5.26am (so not a daytime journey). Southbound connection departed Inverness at 8.15am. The northbound train also conveyed through cars to Blackpool Central.

In Summer 56 there was a 10.10am Euston-Perth arr 8.22pm, conveying Restaurant car. There was also through cars from Euston to Glasgow Central, detached at Carlisle and sent forward as separate train. There was also a 1.35pm Euston-Perth arr 12.23am, conveying a Restaurant car, with a Blackpool portion detached at Crewe and going forward as a separate train. Connection to Inverness arr 5.35am. On Saturdays the train departed at 1.20pm. Southbound there was a 9am Perth-Euston arr 7.27pm conveying a Restaurant car, collecting a Workington portion at Penrith. The Friday and Saturday arrival time was 7.10pm without the Workington portion. Also a 12.15pm Perth-Euston due 9.45pm conveying a Restaurant car. Connection departed Inverness at 8.20am. No Sunday daytime trains
 

Helvellyn

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Usually a pretty standard WCML Mk2F formation by this point, complete with Mk3A RFM.
An article in Rail Issue 112 (January 1990) was about the introduction of fixed formation sets on the West Coast. It has four Polmadie sets (PC83-PC86) listed as 'Clansman' sets, formed FO-FO-RFM-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO. As you say, all vehicles were Mark 2F bar the RFM. This was when the Mark 3B DVTs were being introduced so I guess these sets probably still ran with Mark 1 NHAs as the Guard/Parcel accommodation.
 

hexagon789

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For some years until just prior to WCML electrification there was a curious imbalance of workings, northbound there was a Crewe/ sometimes Birmingham to Perth, sometimes extended to Aberdeen eg FSO or summer dated, and there was a Euston to Perth which was a portion off, I think, the Midday stock.

Southbound the stock from both trains combined to form a Perth (sometimes Aberdeen) to Euston - not sure if it dropped some of the coaches at Crewe or if these came back to Crewe (or Birmingham) on internal LM service.

These ran until I think the year the Beattock route was impacted by electrification work (I think 1973) when trains from GLC diverted via GSW, and in their place there was a connection to Glasgow Central from either Perth or Dundee via Coatbridge Central and Carmyle.

When the Clansman was introduced in May 74 an additional Aberdeen to Queen St and return was introduced to the timetable (taking the frequency on that axis from 4 per day to 5 per day) which connected into/out of the Clansman for further south at Perth (cross the bridge) or Stirling (same platform)
It did seem to vary, there's a photo of the 'Birmingham' train at Perth in 1962 in one book online have and another book has the Crewe-Perth passing through the borders in 1964.

I have the 1974 timetable myself, and once you understand what the previous timetable was like there is no doubt it was improvement.

I hadn't realised there were only 4 Glasgow-Aberdeen, raised to 5 in 1974. Back when the A4s were doing the best services, there were certainly far more.

An article in Rail Issue 112 (January 1990) was about the introduction of fixed formation sets on the West Coast. It has four Polmadie sets (PC83-PC86) listed as 'Clansman' sets, formed FO-FO-RFM-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO. As you say, all vehicles were Mark 2F bar the RFM. This was when the Mark 3B DVTs were being introduced so I guess these sets probably still ran with Mark 1 NHAs as the Guard/Parcel accommodation.
Yes, NHA instead of DVT. I have seen one or two notes of it running with a DVT in the set in its very late 1991 life.
 

Cheshire Scot

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I hadn't realised there were only 4 Glasgow-Aberdeen, raised to 5 in 1974. Back when the A4s were doing the best services, there were certainly far more.
I don't think the TT varied much in the A4 era but latterly the trains were:
ex Buchanan St 08.25*,10.00, 14.05, 17.30* and 23.00 - those marked * were the three hour trains calling Stirling Perth Forfar and Stonehaven only, and were shadowed by stoppers between Perth and Aberdeen in both directions. (The 23.00 ran ahead of the Inverness overnight train).
From Aberdeen 07.10*, 09.30, 13.30, 15.30, 17.15*.
The 15.30 was the Up Postal, with TPOs detached front at Perth and forward ahead of the Buchanan St portion. When Buchanan St and the Forfar route closed this and the 23.00 disappeared from the TT (I recall a spell when the Postal conveyed passengers only between Dundee and Perth although the coaches came from Aberdeen), and the 23.00 was replaced with the 01.05 from Perth (and conveyed a van from GLQ detached at Perth off the Inverness).

This left just 4 trains each way (plus as before a number of connections at Dundee (off the xx.10 from GLQ) although over the years times varied e.g. from Queen St in the early seventies 08.10, 13.10, 17.05 (off pattern to accommodate a Dunblane 'peak' stop - and probably also to avoid cl40 on 8 coach timings being caught by the following 17.15 push pull (2x27 with 6) peak extra) and 18.10.
Then a 15.52 (or similar) was added as the Clansman connection in May '74, and a bit later the 10.10 to Dundee was extended to Aberdeen (but remained a cl27 working whilst the others were all 40 or 47 worked), perhaps in part as it's 'normal' back working from Dundee was now filled by the Clansman connection.

To add to this (nothing to do with the Clansman but in the context of A4s), in my mid primary school years my Aunt and Uncle farmed at Carmont and when visiting several times a year my vantage point for observing A4s, Black 5s, miscellaneous diesels and occasionally A2s and A3s was a five minute walk down a forestry road then down a firebreak through the then infant trees to a point overlooking the bridge over the Carron Water above and opposite the 221 milepost. When this location so tragically came to national attention last year I immediately realised exactly where it was. Such happy memories brought back to mind by this terrible event.

My vantage point is hidden by the plume of steam in the attached, with the forestry road alignment visible above. The 221 milepost is the white dot to the left of the third/fourth coaches.
 

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47271

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They later changed at Carstairs instead, I believe from May 1986 as from then it was portion worked either splitting at Carstairs or from 1987 at Edinburgh.



No worries, can do other years too but these I have to hand - I'd need to dig out and fire up the scanner for the other years I have which I can do if you like but not immediately.

Here's Summer 1986 anyway:

Table 231 Northbound
View attachment 88661

Table 231 Southbound
View attachment 88662

Hopefully of interest :)




Indeed, both portions had the name according to the timetable I didn't intend to suggest otherwise, they were -

0745 EUS-GLC/INV
1100 INV/1510 GLC-EUS

All labelled as 'The Clansman'
Of interest in relation to The Clansman, but shocking how bad the Highland Main Line timetable of the era was. First Edinburgh arrival from the north around 1130am unless you use the sleeper, dear oh dear.

This schedule would've made my pre Covid work impossible if I'd been around in the 80s.

Worth remembering whenever anyone starts to get nostalgic for the period.
 

Cheshire Scot

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Of interest in relation to The Clansman, but shocking how bad the Highland Main Line timetable of the era was. First Edinburgh arrival from the north around 1130am unless you use the sleeper, dear oh dear
At least that sleeper arrival time was an improvement on the 70s when the split was at Perth and the Edinburgh portion having arrived around 03.30 did not leave Perth until 07.02 arriving Edinburgh about half past eight, and in the same era the first daytime arrival in EDB was well after twelve - and 13.45 ish for the first arrival in Inverness from Glasgow/Edinburgh!

No worries, can do other years too but these I have to hand - I'd need to dig out and fire up the scanner for the other years I have which I can do if you like but not immediately.

Here's Summer 1986 anyway:
thanks for these, they fill a gap in my knowledge of HML. No need to dig out others for me.
 
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route101

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Interesting information. I cant imagine the Clansman running today!
 

hexagon789

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I don't think the TT varied much in the A4 era but latterly the trains were:
ex Buchanan St 08.25*,10.00, 14.05, 17.30* and 23.00 - those marked * were the three hour trains calling Stirling Perth Forfar and Stonehaven only, and were shadowed by stoppers between Perth and Aberdeen in both directions. (The 23.00 ran ahead of the Inverness overnight train).
From Aberdeen 07.10*, 09.30, 13.30, 15.30, 17.15*.
The 15.30 was the Up Postal, with TPOs detached front at Perth and forward ahead of the Buchanan St portion. When Buchanan St and the Forfar route closed this and the 23.00 disappeared from the TT (I recall a spell when the Postal conveyed passengers only between Dundee and Perth although the coaches came from Aberdeen), and the 23.00 was replaced with the 01.05 from Perth (and conveyed a van from GLQ detached at Perth off the Inverness).

This left just 4 trains each way (plus as before a number of connections at Dundee (off the xx.10 from GLQ) although over the years times varied e.g. from Queen St in the early seventies 08.10, 13.10, 17.05 (off pattern to accommodate a Dunblane 'peak' stop - and probably also to avoid cl40 on 8 coach timings being caught by the following 17.15 push pull (2x27 with 6) peak extra) and 18.10.
Then a 15.52 (or similar) was added as the Clansman connection in May '74, and a bit later the 10.10 to Dundee was extended to Aberdeen (but remained a cl27 working whilst the others were all 40 or 47 worked), perhaps in part as it's 'normal' back working from Dundee was now filled by the Clansman connection.
I do have 1974 but hadn't appreciated how sparse the Aberdeen service was, the Inverness service I noticed was pretty much as in steam days a mid-morning and an early afternoon train plus the sleeper.

I'm either misrecollecting or something but I have Summer 1962, though not to hand at the moment, and I could've sworn the Glasgow-Aberdeen service was more than just the four namers plus the postal. I'll check later.


At least that sleeper arrival time was an improvement on the 70s when the split was at Perth and the Edinburgh portion having arrived around 03.30 did not leave Perth until 07.02 arriving Edinburgh about half past eight, and in the same era the first daytime arrival in EDB was well after twelve - and 13.45 ish for the first arrival in Inverness from Glasgow/Edinburgh!
A different era in many respects, but while the frequency was poorer the trains were generally longer and had a fuller catering provision generally.


Of interest in relation to The Clansman, but shocking how bad the Highland Main Line timetable of the era was. First Edinburgh arrival from the north around 1130am unless you use the sleeper, dear oh dear.

This schedule would've made my pre Covid work impossible if I'd been around in the 80s.

Worth remembering whenever anyone starts to get nostalgic for the period.
That's actually quite an improvement, 1984 and 1985 were worse!
 

Taunton

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Of interest in relation to The Clansman, but shocking how bad the Highland Main Line timetable of the era was. First Edinburgh arrival from the north around 1130am unless you use the sleeper, dear oh dear.
Even worse was pointed out by a colleague in Edinburgh in the 1970s who came from Wick. The (only) morning train from Edinburgh to Inverness arrived there at like 14.00. Of the three far north trains, the midday one went at ... 13.30, next one 18.00. They actually used to go to the cinema to pass the time. Shocker was if you forgot that Wednesday was half-day closing in Inverness. Absolutely everything (including the cinema) was closed in the afternoon.

There was eventually a timetable change which finally meant the two services connected. Great joy in the far north.
 

Cheshire Scot

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I'm either misrecollecting or something but I have Summer 1962, though not to hand at the moment, and I could've sworn the Glasgow-Aberdeen service was more than just the four namers plus the postal. I'll check later.
My summer '62 is handy in my bottom drawer, TT pretty much the same but the waters perhaps slightly muddied by several summer Saturday additionals - strange though it may seem today, Aberdeen, with it's miles of sandy beach, was a popular summer holiday destination at that time!
Well, it was either 'doon the watter' or Aberdeen (or Blackpool) for many in that era, nobody had heard of Spain other than as a country on a map.

The one train I have not mentioned (in both scenarios) was the 04.00 from Glasgow Central, pretty much a news and parcels train with 'limited accommodation' - that one connected at Stirling to Oban sleeper!
 

hexagon789

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Even worse was pointed out by a colleague in Edinburgh in the 1970s who came from Wick. The (only) morning train from Edinburgh to Inverness arrived there at like 14.00. Of the three far north trains, the midday one went at ... 13.30, next one 18.00. They actually used to go to the cinema to pass the time. Shocker was if you forgot that Wednesday was half-day closing in Inverness. Absolutely everything (including the cinema) was closed in the afternoon.

There was eventually a timetable change which finally meant the two services connected. Great joy in the far north.
I can imagine, even to this day there are many services which don't connect which should and causes great consternation among travellers I shouldn't wonder, at least most routes are more frequent now.

My summer '62 is handy in my bottom drawer, TT pretty much the same but the waters perhaps slightly muddied by several summer Saturday additionals - strange though it may seem today, Aberdeen, with it's miles of sandy beach, was a popular summer holiday destination at that time!
Well, it was either 'doon the watter' or Aberdeen (or Blackpool) for many in that era, nobody had heard of Spain other than as a country on a map.

The one train I have not mentioned (in both scenarios) was the 04.00 from Glasgow Central, pretty much a news and parcels train with 'limited accommodation' - that one connected at Stirling to Oban sleeper!
It must've been the summer additionals I was thinking of, for some reason I thought it was roughly 2 tph or am I getting mixed up with Glasgow-Dundee?
 
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