The Clansman

[Cheshire Scot]

It must've been the summer additionals I was thinking of, for some reason I thought it was roughly 2 tph or am I getting mixed up with Glasgow-Dundee?

Yes, the trains to Dundee (West) ran every two hours.

 

[47271]

Recommended by my Dad, fans of The Clansman and its history may like to listen to this 1977 Argo Transacord LP, Diesels in the Highlands, on YouTube.

Amongst a wide variety of tracks, mainly of Class 26s spluttering around on the Kyle and Buchan lines, the ninth on side one starting at 18'17" is an onboard recording of The Clansman leaving Inverness behind 47550 in April 1976. A couple of minutes in you get the guard's announcement of all calling points, including Newtonmore.

As a resident of Speyside, can I ask if anyone's got the timetable from that era, was the Newtonmore stop driven by crossing with another service? It would've still had a loop then, but it seems odd for a London train to call there. Even now it has a very sparse Scotrail service.

 

[hexagon789]

As a resident of Speyside, can I ask if anyone's got the timetable from that era, was the Newtonmore stop driven by crossing with another service? It would've still had a loop then, but it seems odd for a London train to call there. Even now it has a very sparse Scotrail service.

The original May 1974 Clansman stopped at Newtonmore but not at Kingussie in either direction!

Stops between Perth and Inverness being Pitlochry, Newtonmore and Aviemore both ways, I don't know the reason either.

 

[Helvellyn]

Shocker was if you forgot that Wednesday was half-day closing in Inverness. Absolutely everything (including the cinema) was closed in the afternoon.

Scarily not legally abolished until the early 1990s by the Major government either! I'm old enough to remember it, which coupled with no Sunday trading either, is a contrast to today. Mind you, I was reading an article saying image if the COVID pandemic had struck in the early 1990s when we didn't have 24 hour news, social media, etc. We'd have probably had some dedicated pages on CEEFAX or ORACLE covering it!

 

[47271]

The original May 1974 Clansman stopped at Newtonmore but not at Kingussie in either direction!

Stops between Perth and Inverness being Pitlochry, Newtonmore and Aviemore both ways, I don't know the reason either.

The two villages are only three miles apart and are interchangeable in many people's minds, including the railway's at one time going by The Clansman's timetable.

Kingussie is quite a bit bigger than Newtonmore and, at the same time as losing its loop, Newtonmore lost its significance on the network.

You could argue it either way: Newtonmore may be smaller but is better placed strategically as a railhead on the road network. I believe from local chat that Kingussie won simply because it has a level crossing and couldn't dispense with its signalling.

 

[hexagon789]

The two villages are only three miles apart and are interchangeable in many people's minds, including the railway's at one time going by The Clansman's timetable.

Kingussie is quite a bit bigger than Newtonmore and, at the same time as losing its loop, Newtonmore lost its significance on the network.

You could argue it either way: Newtonmore may be smaller but is better placed strategically as a railhead on the road network. I believe from local chat that Kingussie won simply because it has a level crossing and couldn't dispense with its signalling.

They are very close, the other services which call at both took 5 mins between them.

Actually even more intriguing is that from 1976 onwards the Clansman always stopped at both Newtonmore and Kingussie, the Highland Chieftain meanwhile after it settled down to its semi-fast calling pattern (Pitlochry, Kingussie & Aviemore) on the HML (ignoring Sundays) hasn't made a Newtonmore stop, favouring Kingussie only.

 

[Ianigsy]

I distinctly remember coming back from Inverness with my folks in 1989 (I think) and the coaching stock for the Clansman being on the opposite platform face from the Highland Chieftain.

What I don’t understand, given that we were going back to Liverpool, is why we took the Chieftain to Stirling, a local DMU into Queen Street then kicked our heels around Glasgow for a couple of hours until our train to Preston, rather than taking the Clansman all the way through.

Quoted my own post....

 

[hexagon789]

I distinctly remember coming back from Inverness with my folks in 1989 (I think) and the coaching stock for the Clansman being on the opposite platform face from the Highland Chieftain.

What I don’t understand, given that we were going back to Liverpool, is why we took the Chieftain to Stirling, a local DMU into Queen Street then kicked our heels around Glasgow for a couple of hours until our train to Preston, rather than taking the Clansman all the way through.

Quoted my own post....

By 1989 The Clansman went to Edinburgh first, joined another portion there, then from Edinburgh went south to Carstairs and then down to Birmingham instead of going direct Larbert to Motherwell. So it may well have been just as quick to go to Glasgow instead.

 

[delt1c]

I know 47/4's were allocated to IS for the Clansman, however if any other diesel classes were used on the service , appreciate it would have been no e
heat.

 

[hexagon789]

I know 47/4's were allocated to IS for the Clansman, however if any other diesel classes were used on the service , appreciate it would have been no e
heat.

37s but only in later years (~1988/9 to withdrawal)

Presumably as it was the premier train of the HML for 10 years it had a higher chance of being allocated booked traction than a lowly Inverness-Queen Street stopper. Certainly I've never seen anything but a 47 on The Clansman when it was the prime train.

 

[Iskra]

Recommended by my Dad, fans of The Clansman and its history may like to listen to this 1977 Argo Transacord LP, Diesels in the Highlands, on YouTube.

Amongst a wide variety of tracks, mainly of Class 26s spluttering around on the Kyle and Buchan lines, the ninth on side one starting at 18'17" is an onboard recording of The Clansman leaving Inverness behind 47550 in April 1976. A couple of minutes in you get the guard's announcement of all calling points, including Newtonmore.

As a resident of Speyside, can I ask if anyone's got the timetable from that era, was the Newtonmore stop driven by crossing with another service? It would've still had a loop then, but it seems odd for a London train to call there. Even now it has a very sparse Scotrail service.

Thanks for that. I’ve got it on the TV now and it’s very relaxing to listen to while sat on the sofa and really helps with lockdown since I can’t travel on real trains (until a brief work-related trip on Friday)

 

[ajrm]

An article in Rail Issue 112 (January 1990) was about the introduction of fixed formation sets on the West Coast. It has four Polmadie sets (PC83-PC86) listed as 'Clansman' sets, formed FO-FO-RFM-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO. As you say, all vehicles were Mark 2F bar the RFM. This was when the Mark 3B DVTs were being introduced so I guess these sets probably still ran with Mark 1 NHAs as the Guard/Parcel accommodation.

Latterly it ran with the Mk 3 BFOs; some discussion of it in this thread:

Electric HSTs - how close to being a thing?

Just came across this article - https://www.railmagazine.com/news/rail-features/class-91spromise-unfulfilled - which has the interesting quote: In addition to Class 89, British Rail (BR) had also authorised the design and production of four High Speed Train (HST-E) power cars purely with...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Cheshire Scot]

By 1989 The Clansman went to Edinburgh first, joined another portion there, then from Edinburgh went south to Carstairs and then down to Birmingham instead of going direct Larbert to Motherwell. So it may well have been just as quick to go to Glasgow instead.

Also, going back to the seventies, travellers from Stirling, Perth etc for Carlisle and beyond would, if not on a through train, be routed via Glasgow due to the more frequent service - and even crossing Glasgow it was normally quicker - Perth to Edinburgh was about 4 trains a day, otherwise change at Stirling onto the much slower train to Edinburgh and pre May 74 WCML electrification the service south from Edinburgh to the WCML was pitiful. I suspect that it took a while for the traditional routing to change once frequencies (and journey times) had improved.

Latterly it ran with the Mk 3 BFOs; some discussion of it in this thread:

The Mk3 Clansman had an NHA in the Inverness portion (front from Euston - and attached rear at Carstairs going back) and a BFO in the Glasgow portion - the latter arguably only required rather than an FO to provide accommodation for the Guard between Carstairs and Glasgow.

 

[USRailFan]

An article in Rail Issue 112 (January 1990) was about the introduction of fixed formation sets on the West Coast. It has four Polmadie sets (PC83-PC86) listed as 'Clansman' sets, formed FO-FO-RFM-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO. As you say, all vehicles were Mark 2F bar the RFM. This was when the Mark 3B DVTs were being introduced so I guess these sets probably still ran with Mark 1 NHAs as the Guard/Parcel accommodation.

I don't know how popular it is to link to "competing" websites here, but here goes: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/44668-mk-3-bfo-formations/
Based on the last post in the linked thread, the formations listed for late 1991, which can't be anything other than "The Clansman", it was a pure Mk3 rake again (except for the GUVs and Mk1 BG) by late 1991

 

[Helvellyn]

I don't know how popular it is to link to "competing" websites here, but here goes: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/44668-mk-3-bfo-formations/
Based on the last post in the linked thread, the formations listed for late 1991, which can't be anything other than "The Clansman", it was a pure Mk3 rake again (except for the GUVs and Mk1 BG) by late 1991

At the start of 1990 the BFOs were in three of the four Super Pullman sets utilised on the Manchester Pullman, which were formed DVT-BFO-RFM-FO-FO-FO-RFM-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO.

 

[USRailFan]

At the start of 1990 the BFOs were in three of the four Super Pullman sets utilised on the Manchester Pullman, which were formed DVT-BFO-RFM-FO-FO-FO-RFM-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO.

As you can clearly see from the formations listed in the final post in the link I posted, the Clansman had Mk3s, including a BFO, in late 1991

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just as a point of clarification, were all the services being discussed on this thread actually known as "The Clansman"? Beginning to seem as if every long distance WCML 'Anglo Scottish' service of the 1970s / 1980s (and connecting portions) has now retrospectively acquired this appellation.

 

[Helvellyn]

As you can clearly see from the formations listed in the final post in the link I posted, the Clansman had Mk3s, including a BFO, in late 1991

I am not disputing your point, merely pointing out that the BFOs drifted around the WCML in terms of which sets they were used in.

By 1991 I think the Super Pullman sets had been disbanded (rather than the BFOs being swapped out) and using the BFOs alongside a Mk 3 FO and RFM still gave the same number of first class seats as when the Clansman ran with Mk 2F FOs and a RFM (126).

 

[delt1c]

Just as a point of clarification, were all the services being discussed on this thread actually known as "The Clansman"? Beginning to seem as if every long distance WCML 'Anglo Scottish' service of the 1970s / 1980s (and connecting portions) has now retrospectively acquired this appellation.

There was only 1 Clansman service it was the Trains name

 

[Cheshire Scot]

By 1991 I think the Super Pullman sets had been disbanded (rather than the BFOs being swapped out) and using the BFOs alongside a Mk 3 FO and RFM still gave the same number of first class seats as when the Clansman ran with Mk 2F FOs and a RFM (126).

Worth noting the BFO FO RFM was part of the Glasgow portion of the Clansman, the Inverness portion also had an FO (at the other end of the train) which I am sure would have been adequate for Inverness (at that time), the earlier arrangement having potentially been over provision although at least part of the MK2F FO marshalled next to the the RFM may well have been allocated for dining.

 

[hexagon789]

Also, going back to the seventies, travellers from Stirling, Perth etc for Carlisle and beyond would, if not on a through train, be routed via Glasgow due to the more frequent service - and even crossing Glasgow it was normally quicker - Perth to Edinburgh was about 4 trains a day, otherwise change at Stirling onto the much slower train to Edinburgh and pre May 74 WCML electrification the service south from Edinburgh to the WCML was pitiful. I suspect that it took a while for the traditional routing to change once frequencies (and journey times) had improved.

Quite possibly quicker, even with the Clansman being introduced the diversion via Birmingham added at least an hour against going direct as per the Glasgow-Euston trains over the WCML but you had the advantage of not needing to change and supposedly the reason for routing via Birmingham was an extension of the traditional Perth-Birmingham and reasonable traffic on the axis as much as demand for London itself.

Just as a point of clarification, were all the services being discussed on this thread actually known as "The Clansman"? Beginning to seem as if every long distance WCML 'Anglo Scottish' service of the 1970s / 1980s (and connecting portions) has now retrospectively acquired this appellation.

Until May 1986 the Clansman was just the Euston-Inverness, that's all it applied to, though in 1985 on certain days and dates it started/ended at Birmingham or in the West Country instead of Euston.

In the May 1986 timetable, it became a portion of a Euston-Glasgow service and the Glasgow portion took the Clansman name.

In 1987 it ran via Birmingham again and ran into Edinburgh from Carstairs and then out to Inverness, half the train was left behind in Edinburgh.

From 1988 iirc, the half left in Edinburgh then ran to/from Aberdeen so you had a Euston-Birmingham-Edinburgh-Inverness/Aberdeen service both parts called The Clansman.

After 1992 the service ceased to run from London and was de-named but use of IC stock on an Edinburgh/Inverness continued for about a year.

Worth noting the BFO FO RFM was part of the Glasgow portion of the Clansman, the Inverness portion also had an FO (at the other end of the train) which I am sure would have been adequate for Inverness (at that time), the earlier arrangement having potentially been over provision although at least part of the MK2F FO marshalled next to the the RFM may well have been allocated for dining.

The original arrangement had Mk2 FO-BFK-FO with the FO next to the catering for fluid dining and I believe that arrangement continued up to when the set gained a much more mixed formation in 1985 and Mk3 stock in 1986.

 

[USRailFan]

Worth noting the BFO FO RFM was part of the Glasgow portion of the Clansman, the Inverness portion also had an FO (at the other end of the train) which I am sure would have been adequate for Inverness (at that time), the earlier arrangement having potentially been over provision although at least part of the MK2F FO marshalled next to the the RFM may well have been allocated for dining.

I am pretty certain that by the 1991-92 timetable it ran as one entire train the entire route, and had no Glasgow section

 

[Mag_seven]

I am pretty certain that by the 1991-92 timetable it ran as one entire train the entire route, and had no Glasgow section

I have a vague recollection of a Class 318 that ran out to Carstairs from Glasgow Central to connect with it not long after the Glasgow portion was withdrawn.

 

[stj]

For some reason the Restaurant Car had a vase of flowers on each table when I used it in the 80s

 

[Dr Hoo]

I have a vague recollection of a Class 318 that ran out to Carstairs from Glasgow Central to connect with it not long after the Glasgow portion was withdrawn.

Yes, that was certainly the case although the Strathclyde PTE were a bit precious about a couple of the flagship Ayr line units going to Carstairs between the peaks.

I used to catch it occasionally. One day the Inverness portion had failed at Edinburgh and we ran forward to Carlisle. My only trip on a 318 over Beattock although we only did 90mph on the descent unlike the APT's epic run. There was then a scratch set of Mark Is rustled up from Upperby with an early Class 81-85 (not sure which class specifically) I think, that gave us a 'lively' run south with all the sliding windows and droplights open on a hot day. Nearest thing to an electric 'thrash' for several years.

(No restaurant car, let alone flowers, of course.)

 

[hexagon789]

I am pretty certain that by the 1991-92 timetable it ran as one entire train the entire route, and had no Glasgow section

I believe The Clansman ran as a Euston/Glasgow with Inverness portion for just the 1986 season. Certainly by 1988 it was not a Glasgow service, it had no Glasgow portion either, it was back to running via Birmingham and it now ran to Edinburgh from Carstairs first before heading north, instead of running directly from Motherwell via Coatbridge to Larbert.

 

[USRailFan]

I believe The Clansman ran as a Euston/Glasgow with Inverness portion for just the 1986 season. Certainly by 1988 it was not a Glasgow service, it had no Glasgow portion either, it was back to running via Birmingham and it now ran to Edinburgh from Carstairs first before heading north, instead of running directly from Motherwell via Coatbridge to Larbert.

Yes that seem to fit with the info I have too

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

For some reason the Restaurant Car had a vase of flowers on each table when I used it in the 80s

One of the Euston based Chief Stewards' supplied them himself!

 

[d9009alycidon]

My abiding memory of the Clansman was a weekend package deal in Aviemore booked through a local travel agent, the deal involved three nights in the MacDonald Hotel and first class return rail travel on the Friday and Monday, this was some time in February 1985. Caught the northbound Clansman on the Friday from Coatbridge Central and arrived in a very snowy Aviemore in the evening, luckily a 4x4 was sent from the hotel to collect us! The return journey on the Monday was the interesting part, we joined the train at Aviemore and sat in a nice first class compartment, and the ticket collector was very short with us, he clearly thought we didn't have valid tickets and was somewhat put up when they were presented. I totally forgot that the up platform at Coatbridge Central, even back then only took about seven or eight carriages so the working practise was to stop the loco well out of the station with the first class section and the buffet car off the platform. There then was an almighty scramble through the train to get to a coach on the platform!

 

[hexagon789]

My abiding memory of the Clansman was a weekend package deal in Aviemore booked through a local travel agent, the deal involved three nights in the MacDonald Hotel and first class return rail travel on the Friday and Monday, this was some time in February 1985. Caught the northbound Clansman on the Friday from Coatbridge Central and arrived in a very snowy Aviemore in the evening, luckily a 4x4 was sent from the hotel to collect us! The return journey on the Monday was the interesting part, we joined the train at Aviemore and sat in a nice first class compartment, and the ticket collector was very short with us, he clearly thought we didn't have valid tickets and was somewhat put up when they were presented. I totally forgot that the up platform at Coatbridge Central, even back then only took about seven or eight carriages so the working practise was to stop the loco well out of the station with the first class section and the buffet car off the platform. There then was an almighty scramble through the train to get to a coach on the platform!

Was usually too long even for Inverness, the loco usually sitting just past the starter. Usually 12 coaches until the May 1985 timetable change, though 13 was permitted in the timing load - E455 to Mossend, D455 to Inverness.