The evolution of Cross Country

jfollows

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From what I can make out it may have been the same slot, more or less in 1981: Reading 13.43-Oxford 14.15 (from the ABC timetable on timetableworld.com, which does not include full XC so you have to infer things a little). This was a Poole XC which did not go to Manchester or Liverpool, so it MAY have gone to Newcastle.
1E63 13q45 Reading was 11:35 Poole-Leeds, but to Newcastle 22/6 to 11/9
I have a couple of 1981 WTTs in my collection.
 
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nickw1

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1E63 13q45 Reading was 11:35 Poole-Leeds, but to Newcastle 22/6 to 11/9
I have a couple of 1981 WTTs in my collection.

Thanks for that. Ah ok, so in 1981 there was no regular daily Poole to Newcastle presumably? Definitely was back by 1983, and I think, 1982 - so presumably just a temporary withdrawal, perhaps a reaction to the early-80s recession.
 

jfollows

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Thanks for that. Ah ok, so in 1981 there was no regular daily Poole to Newcastle presumably? Definitely was back by 1983, and I think, 1982 - so presumably just a temporary withdrawal, perhaps a reaction to the early-80s recession.
Down from Poole/Bournemouth in 1981:
1M38 06:25 Poole-Birmingham
1E27 SO 07:57 Weymouth-Bradford SO 30/5 to 26/9
1M02 SO 08:42 Poole-Liverpool SO until 3/10
1M51 09:42 Poole-Manchester (1M81 to Nottingham SO until 3/10)
1M51 SO 09:09 Weymouth-Manchester SO until 3/10 (non-stop Oxford-Birmingham via Solihull)
1E27 09:55 Weymouth-Leeds SX 22/6 to 11/9, SO until 3/10
1M00 11:08 THO Bournemouth-Birmingham not advertised, until 18/6 and 10/9 to 1/10
1E69 10:55 SO Weymouth-Leeds SO until 3/10
1E63 11:35 Poole-Leeds (to Newcastle 22/6 to 11/9) (but confusingly the LM WTT says Newcastle throughout?)
1M23 14:45 Bournemouth-Liverpool

A few Solihull calls by XC services too: (although most were Paddington-Birmingham which were essentially the remnant of the GW services run down since 1966 so not really XC)
1M11 08:30 Paddington-Manchester called 10:33
1M06 14:20 SO Portsmouth-Birmingham SO until 26/9 called 17:21
1M15 15:50 Paddington-Birmingham called 17:58
1M23 14:45 Bournemouth-Liverpool called 18:20
1M16 17:41 Paddington-Birmingham via High Wycombe called Dorridge 19:45, Solihull 19:51
1M17 20:50 Paddington-Birmingham called 22:58

Thanks for that. Ah ok, so in 1981 there was no regular daily Poole to Newcastle presumably? Definitely was back by 1983, and I think, 1982 - so presumably just a temporary withdrawal, perhaps a reaction to the early-80s recession.
Inconsistently, the WR WTT for Reading shows the Leeds/Newcastle variation whereas the LM WTT for the onward journey shows Newcastle as the destination all the time.
1O19 07:55 Newcastle-Poole also shows as running all the time in the LM WTT whereas the WR WTT is confusing and in one place refers to "also conveys portion from Leeds".
 
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nickw1

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Down from Poole/Bournemouth in 1981:
1M38 06:25 Poole-Birmingham
1E27 SO 07:57 Weymouth-Bradford SO 30/5 to 26/9
1M02 SO 08:42 Poole-Liverpool SO until 3/10
1M51 09:42 Poole-Manchester (1M81 to Nottingham SO until 3/10)
1M51 SO 09:09 Weymouth-Manchester SO until 3/10 (non-stop Oxford-Birmingham via Solihull)
1E27 09:55 Weymouth-Leeds SX 22/6 to 11/9, SO until 3/10
1M00 11:08 THO Bournemouth-Birmingham not advertised, until 18/6 and 10/9 to 1/10
1E69 10:55 SO Weymouth-Leeds SO until 3/10
1E63 11:35 Poole-Leeds (to Newcastle 22/6 to 11/9) (but confusingly the LM WTT says Newcastle throughout?)
1M23 14:45 Bournemouth-Liverpool

A few Solihull calls by XC services too: (although most were Paddington-Birmingham which were essentially the remnant of the GW services run down since 1966 so not really XC)
1M11 08:30 Paddington-Manchester called 10:33
1M06 14:20 SO Portsmouth-Birmingham SO until 26/9 called 17:21
1M15 15:50 Paddington-Birmingham called 17:58
1M23 14:45 Bournemouth-Liverpool called 18:20
1M16 17:41 Paddington-Birmingham via High Wycombe called Dorridge 19:45, Solihull 19:51
1M17 20:50 Paddington-Birmingham called 22:58

Thanks for that. To add to that there were also Paddington-Birminghams at 1150 and 1350, so an even-interval two-hourly service through the middle of the day on that corridor, as you say this was the remnant of the regular two-hourly service in existence in 1973 and before. In 1981 there were Worcesters in the other hours (e.g. 1250, 1450) though these got axed in 1982.

I'd class the Paddingtons at this stage as essentially XC (despite their history) because they continued through the 80s and particularly the 90s as such, though in 1981 they weren't really integrated with the south-coast services to produce an even-interval timetable. Also, some (such as the 0830 and others, I think) continued on to Manchester or Liverpool. As seen up-thread, however, by 1983 the remaining Paddingtons (of which there were much less, just four northbound of which three were either very early or very late) had integrated nicely with the growing numbers of south-coast services.

Inconsistently, the WR WTT for Reading shows the Leeds/Newcastle variation whereas the LM WTT for the onward journey shows Newcastle as the destination all the time.
1O19 07:55 Newcastle-Poole also shows as running all the time in the LM WTT whereas the WR WTT is confusing and in one place refers to "also conveys portion from Leeds".

Maybe there was some confusion with the train dividing. Maybe the WR WTT saw it as a Poole-Leeds with Sheffield-Newcastle separate service, even though this actually worked through from Poole. I suspect this was the case and it was actually a through Leeds/Newcastle service.
 

jfollows

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Maybe there was some confusion with the train dividing. Maybe the WR WTT saw it as a Poole-Leeds with Sheffield-Newcastle separate service, even though this actually worked through from Poole. I suspect this was the case and it was actually a through Leeds/Newcastle service.
I suspect you're right.
The 1981 WTT is a year after I was in Oxford, in 1980-81 I remember lots of 47s and Mark 1 stock of course, and busy trains. I've said elsewhere that I often gave up on the direct Birmingham services and went via Worcester instead, which was nicer rolling stock, emptier trains, and reliably Class 50. However then a DMU from Worcester Shrub Hill to Birmingham New Street, maybe with a call at Droitwich only, which was certainly interesting chugging up Lickey.
But by May 1981 I'd failed my exams and moved to Imperial College, London, for a different degree ..... I even got an extra year's grant and had my commuting expenses paid in my last two years in London when I lived a few miles away. Today there'd perhaps be less of a problem but only because it'd mean payment of another year's tuition fees. Most things are better today than they were then, but not this one aspect!
 

nickw1

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I suspect you're right.
The 1981 WTT is a year after I was in Oxford, in 1980-81 I remember lots of 47s and Mark 1 stock of course, and busy trains. I've said elsewhere that I often gave up on the direct Birmingham services and went via Worcester instead, which was nicer rolling stock, emptier trains, and reliably Class 50.
Interesting it was mostly Mk-I then: certainly by 1983 Mk-II (aircon and non-aircon) was completely dominant with Mk-I restricted to the summer-only specials or FO services. The Worcesters were Mk-II presumably; was an Oxford-Birmingham ticket valid via Worcester?
However then a DMU from Worcester Shrub Hill to Birmingham New Street, maybe with a call at Droitwich only, which was certainly interesting chugging up Lickey.
This service pattern is different to how I remember it later in the 80s with the Worcesters routed via Stourbridge. Wasn't Bromsgrove notable for having peak-hour only services at that time?
But by May 1981 I'd failed my exams and moved to Imperial College, London, for a different degree ..... I even got an extra year's grant and had my commuting expenses paid in my last two years in London when I lived a few miles away. Today there'd perhaps be less of a problem but only because it'd mean payment of another year's tuition fees. Most things are better today than they were then, but not this one aspect!
In 1981 I wasn't even close to adulthood so can't really comment, except that I do not agree with tuition fees so it does look like life was a good deal more friendly for students - but I have to say the late 80s, 90s and 00s were better than today in a whole range of aspects! :)
 

jfollows

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Interesting it was mostly Mk-I then: certainly by 1983 Mk-II (aircon and non-aircon) was completely dominant with Mk-I restricted to the summer-only specials or FO services. The Worcesters were Mk-II presumably; was an Oxford-Birmingham ticket valid via Worcester?

This service pattern is different to how I remember it later in the 80s with the Worcesters routed via Stourbridge. Wasn't Bromsgrove notable for having peak-hour only services at that time?

In 1981 I wasn't even close to adulthood so can't really comment, except that I do not agree with tuition fees so it does look like life was a good deal more friendly for students - but I have to say the late 80s, 90s and 00s were better than today in a whole range of aspects! :)
The rules on routing were different in 1980 than they are today - now we've got the routing guide (not necessarily a bad idea) but the overly complex attempts to integrate it into the ticketing system which have led to near-madness. Then it was down to something like being a "reasonable" route in the eye of the ticket examiner. I never had a problem going via Worcester although today it's certainly not a "permitted route". The Paddington-Worcester were Mark II, mainly air conditioned, by then.
I know we didn't stop at Bromsgrove, but that could be because we'd never have been able to restart from the old station at the bottom of the hill if we had!
 

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It wasn't unknown for diversions of Reading route services to run via the Worcester route. I took the first train north from Reading to Manchester on Sunday 10 July 1994 routed via Kidderminster, Aston, Bescot and Crewe.
 

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The rules on routing were different in 1980 than they are today - now we've got the routing guide (not necessarily a bad idea) but the overly complex attempts to integrate it into the ticketing system which have led to near-madness. Then it was down to something like being a "reasonable" route in the eye of the ticket examiner. I never had a problem going via Worcester although today it's certainly not a "permitted route". The Paddington-Worcester were Mark II, mainly air conditioned, by then.
I do recall, for a time, Portsmouth-Southampton via Eastleigh not being 'permitted' which seems madness to me as at times it would be the quickest route - and late at night, it was the only route. Luckily, at some point they corrected this.
 

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This service pattern is different to how I remember it later in the 80s with the Worcesters routed via Stourbridge. Wasn't Bromsgrove notable for having peak-hour only services at that time?
I also think this was an off-pattern working which just happened to connect out of the Oxford-Worcester service reasonably well, at Shrub Hill. I think the stoppers still went via Stourbridge at the time. Maybe the one I caught was the stock for a rush-hour working back to Worcester via Bromsgrove, just convenient to run it in service the way I caught it?
 

nickw1

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It wasn't unknown for diversions of Reading route services to run via the Worcester route. I took the first train north from Reading to Manchester on Sunday 10 July 1994 routed via Kidderminster, Aston, Bescot and Crewe.

Yes, as I said up-thread I went that way in June 1990 southbound from Birmingham to Oxford via Stourbridge, Worcester and the Cotswold line. To date it is the only occasion I have traversed that line. They were more creative with diversions in those days, I don't think XC have sent trains that way for a long time.

Don't remember a lot about it (it was a dull and uninspiring day) except: seeing the notorious Giant Hogweed plant on Blakedown station; approaching the Cotswold ridge at some point and noting that it seemed lower than in the Cheltenham area; and passing through all those small halts like Combe, Finstock and so on. Increased my WR mileage significantly that year, as I'd also done Southampton-Haverfordwest and v.v; so saw quite a few small WR halts in a short period of time!

I've done the Lickey route more often as for a while (not sure if it's still the case) Southampton to the north via 'Not London' was valid via Bristol and sometimes went that way as a change from the regular route. The speed of the Bristol-Birmingham route is really quite impressive when compared with Reading-Birmingham; after leaving Parkway you were in Cheltenham in no time, and once you left there, you seemed to be approaching Lickey very quickly. Must have been quite something to do this in the days of hauled services and HSTs.
 
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jfollows

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I do recall, for a time, Portsmouth-Southampton via Eastleigh not being 'permitted' which seems madness to me as at times it would be the quickest route - and late at night, it was the only route. Luckily, at some point they corrected this.
Later I used to go Fareham-Southampton-Waterloo, but I'm talking probably 1986 here, so again before the routing guide, and never had a problem. I suspect this isn't a "permitted route" today but it was nice going non-stop from Southampton to Waterloo!
 

nickw1

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I also think this was an off-pattern working which just happened to connect out of the Oxford-Worcester service reasonably well, at Shrub Hill. I think the stoppers still went via Stourbridge at the time. Maybe the one I caught was the stock for a rush-hour working back to Worcester via Bromsgrove, just convenient to run it in service the way I caught it?

Possibly, yes. I do know that later on (00s) they did send all the faster Worcester/Malvern services via Lickey. To be honest I'm surprised they didn't go the Lickey route much earlier, and have a regular fast-ish Birmingham-Malvern via Worcester, calling at Bromsgrove, in the 80s.

Later I used to go Fareham-Southampton-Waterloo, but I'm talking probably 1986 here, so again before the routing guide, and never had a problem. I suspect this isn't a "permitted route" today but it was nice going non-stop from Southampton to Waterloo!

Never had that experience, though I think in around 1990 I probably did Parkway-Waterloo fast.
 

jfollows

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I've done the Lickey route more often as for a while (not sure if it's still the case) Southampton to the north via 'Not London' was valid via Bristol and sometimes went that way as a change from the regular route. The speed of the Bristol-Birmingham route is really quite impressive when compared with Reading-Birmingham; after leaving Parkway you were in Cheltenham in no time, and once you left there, you seemed to be approaching Lickey very quickly. Must have been quite something to do this in the days of hauled services and HSTs.
Hauled services down (both in terms of route and physically!) as well as HSTs were interesting because you could sense the brakes being applied but not the slowing down you'd expect as well, probably something of that still applies today.

More recently I've been to the new Bromsgrove station a couple of times, but prior to electric services starting, because the Stroke Association has a place in town there, and even in a modern DMU I enjoyed the journeys.

I never did it with a banker, though. That'd have been fun!

Possibly, yes. I do know that later on (00s) they did send all the faster Worcester/Malvern services via Lickey. To be honest I'm surprised they didn't go the Lickey route much earlier, and have a regular fast-ish Birmingham-Malvern via Worcester, calling at Bromsgrove, in the 80s.
You're right, I can see them in my 1981 WTT, Hereford/Great Malvern/Shrub Hill services to New Street via Barnt Green, it must have been one of those I used. Around xx.05 passing Barnt Green, xx.27 into New Street. The only issue I remember I had was whether to change at Shrub Hill (preferred slightly) or Foregate Street, my unreliable memory is that the one I caught reversed at Shrub Hill so I changed there.
 
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Going back bit further, I have dug out my Ian Allen reprint of the last Southern Railway timetable (6th October 1947 until further notice)

Page 491 has Somerset and Dorset, and here is the trains (weekdays Monday-Saturday), in winter timetable

Bradford (Forster Square) 21:00 Leeds (City) 22:00 York 21:32 Sheffield 23:17 Manchester (London Rd) 22:25 Crewe 00:45 Nottingham 23:55 Derby 00:45 Burton on Trent 01:03 Birmingham New Street 02:40 Worcester Shrub Hill 03:34 Cheltenham 04:09 Gloucester 04:30 Bath (Green Park) 06:55 then virtually all stations arriving at Bournemouth (West) at 11:03

Bradford (Forster Square) 07:35 Leeds (City) 08:10 York 08:55 Sheffield 10:10 Manchester (London Rd) 10:20 Crewe 11:20 Nottingham 10:35 Derby 11:10 Burton on Trent 11:26 Leicester 10:10 Birmingham New Street 12:42 Cheltenham 13:42 Gloucester 13:56 Bath (Green Park) 14:55 Evercreech Jct 15:50 Blandford 16:35 arriving Bournemouth (West) at 17:14

Bradford (Forster Square) 09:20 Leeds (City) 10:05 York 10:10 Sheffield 11:35 Crewe 11:38 Nottingham 11:42 Derby 12:35 Burton on Trent 12:55 Birmingham New Street 13:44 Worcester Shrub Hill 14:33 Cheltenham 15:04 Gloucester 15:30 Bath (Green Park) 16:35 Shepton Mallet 17:22 then larger stations arriving at Bournemouth (West) at 19:25

(Saturday only) Bradford (Forster Square) 13:30 Leeds (City) 14:37 York 14:40 Sheffield 15:37 Manchester (London Rd) 15:00 Crewe 16:06 Nottingham 16:10 Derby 16:58 Burton on Trent 17:16 Leicester 16:05 Birmingham New Street 18:08 Worcester Shrub Hill 18:50 Cheltenham 19:37 Gloucester 20:00 Bath (Green Park) 22:00 then all stations arriving at Midsummer Norton at 22:38

As far as I can work out it appears the train must have portions joined en route as they all appear to be actual times and not connecting times.
I'm afraid those are almost all connecting times. The only through train was the "Pines Express" (unnamed in 1947) in bold - this is clear enough from Table 210 in the LMS 1947 timetable on timetableworld.com.

Bradshaw and its derivatives were notorious for not distinguishing connecting services from through workings, partly to save space, so you have to cross reference other tables all the time - normally it did show through coaches somewhere but not everywhere you might expect!

I also think this was an off-pattern working which just happened to connect out of the Oxford-Worcester service reasonably well, at Shrub Hill. I think the stoppers still went via Stourbridge at the time. Maybe the one I caught was the stock for a rush-hour working back to Worcester via Bromsgrove, just convenient to run it in service the way I caught it?
There were very few trains of any sort stopping at Bromsgrove back then.

OT: I remember a bike ride one Saturday 76 or 77 from the SVR at Bewdley to Bromsgrove in pouring rain against the clock, because we had one of those new-fangled free cycle reservations for Bromsgrove-New St-Oxford...(outward we'd gone to New Hadley or somewhere...).
 
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nickw1

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I'm afraid those are almost all connecting times. The only through train was the "Pines Express" (unnamed in 1947) in bold - this is clear enough from Table 210 in the LMS 1947 timetable on timetableworld.com.

Bradshaw and its derivatives were notorious for not distinguishing connecting services from through workings, partly to save space, so you have to cross reference other tables all the time - normally it did show through coaches somewhere but not everywhere you might expect!

I find the older Southern Region timetables (late 50s, early 60s) a bit like that. Overly big timetables not distinguishing clearly between through trains and connections. I find them a bit hard to read and follow compared to the later format used from perhaps the mid-60s onwards, which formed the basis of the modern 80s/90s format.

Going back a bit further, the situation in 1965 (based on timetableworld.com) appears to be a very limited service indeed from Reading, as the Paddington-Birmingham trains at that time were still running via High Wycombe, admittedly though on an hourly frequency.

Table 5 in the WR timetable shows:

An 07.58 Reading to Snow Hill, which took 1hr06 to get from Paddington to Reading. Looks like a local DMU, making calls such as Ealing, Southall, Hayes, West Drayton, Maidenhead and Twyford.

The Pines Express at 12.06 from Reading, at that time still routed via Snow Hill and Shrewsbury, then Crewe with Manchester and Liverpool portions. A bizarre and slow route, clearly the Regions were still acting a bit like independent private companies at that time!

A 13.26 Reading to Banbury with buffet facilities. I would guess this might be the Poole to Newcastle, still routed via GC.

That's your lot from Reading, and indeed looks like the Pines Express and the Newcastle were the only services from Hampshire and Dorset, as noted upthread.

Other parts of the railway were in decline, but clearly 'XC' (in a general sense including Paddington services) improved vastly between 1965 and 1973!

(As an aside, and this came up on a thread several years ago, the service provision at Reading in general [pun not intended] was pretty poor. For example, during the daytime off-peak, fast trains to Reading from Paddington - 'fast' including at a maximum a Slough stop - were at 0905, 0915, 0945, 1115, 1200, 1230, 1245, 1400, 1445, 1515, 1545, 1600, and 1620. Fast services from Reading to Oxford were less than hourly. Again this had improved by 1973).
 
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The Pines Express at 12.06 from Reading, at that time still routed via Snow Hill and Shrewsbury, then Crewe with Manchester and Liverpool portions. A bizarre and slow route, clearly the Regions were still acting a bit like independent private companies at that time!
Wellington to Crewe (the route first used when the Pines was diverted off the S and D) had closed, and connections between the two regions at Birmingham and Wolverhampton were still in the future (IIRC)
 

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From 1988 up to the late 1990s, I can recall the northbound XC from Birmingham New Street to Glasgow/Edinburgh via Preston being at xx:05 on the odd hours (although there was an off pattern first departure at 06:55).

The 13:05 was the famous Sussex Scot if I remember right, although there may have been an occasion during one of the summer timetables that it was retimed to 13:35 and ran via Stoke-on-Trent, Manchester Pic and Oxford Road, and Bolton between Birmingham and Preston. The Class 47 loco would obviously remain on the set until Preston as Liverpool/Manchester - Preston did not have wires at that point.
 

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Wellington to Crewe (the route first used when the Pines was diverted off the S and D) had closed, and connections between the two regions at Birmingham and Wolverhampton were still in the future (IIRC)

Ah OK, thanks - interesting. Didn't realise there wasn't a connection at Wolverhampton. Also didn't know there was a Wellington to Crewe route, but my knowledge of closed railways outside the south is a bit sketchy.

EDIT also didn't realise the link to New Street from the Tyseley area was so new.

From 1988 up to the late 1990s, I can recall the northbound XC from Birmingham New Street to Glasgow/Edinburgh via Preston being at xx:05 on the odd hours (although there was an off pattern first departure at 06:55).

The 13:05 was the famous Sussex Scot if I remember right, although there may have been an occasion during one of the summer timetables that it was retimed to 13:35 and ran via Stoke-on-Trent, Manchester Pic and Oxford Road, and Bolton between Birmingham and Preston. The Class 47 loco would obviously remain on the set until Preston as Liverpool/Manchester - Preston did not have wires at that point.

Looking at ABC 1981 on timetableworld again, looks like that is correct, though it was in the even hours at that point.

There were Glasgow/Edinburgh dividers at 0810, 1005, 1205, 1405, and 1800. Slightly strangely there wasn't a 1605, which would have been an excellent slot for a 'get away for the weekend' service. There wasn't even a 1605 to Preston, let alone Scotland.

Assuming these times were maintained later in the 80s:

In 1983/84 the 1005 started from Paddington, calling Reading at 0730.

In 1984/85 and 1985/86, the 1205 started from Poole as the Wessex Scot, calling Reading at 0941.

I'd guess 1986 was when the switch to the odd hour occurred, as the Wessex Scot that year was around 1035 at Reading, which would correspond to the 1305 from New St.

Also I think one of these would have been the Clansman, which I recall from the 80s as a Euston-Scotland (Inverness?) service routed via Birmingham. Can't remember which though.
 
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Ken H

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Ah OK, thanks - interesting. Didn't realise there wasn't a connection at Wolverhampton. Also didn't know there was a Wellington to Crewe route, but my knowledge of closed railways outside the south is a bit sketchy.

EDIT also didn't realise the link to New Street from the Tyseley area was so new.



Looking at ABC 1981 on timetableworld again, looks like that is correct, though it was in the even hours at that point.

There were Glasgow/Edinburgh dividers at 0810, 1005, 1205, 1405, and 1800. Slightly strangely there wasn't a 1605, which would have been an excellent slot for a 'get away for the weekend' service. There wasn't even a 1605 to Preston, let alone Scotland.

Assuming these times were maintained later in the 80s:

In 1983/84 the 1005 started from Paddington, calling Reading at 0730.

In 1984/85 and 1985/86, the 1205 started from Poole as the Wessex Scot, calling Reading at 0941.

I'd guess 1986 was when the switch to the odd hour occurred, as the Wessex Scot that year was around 1035 at Reading, which would correspond to the 1305 from New St.

Also I think one of these would have been the Clansman, which I recall from the 80s as a Euston-Scotland (Inverness?) service routed via Birmingham. Can't remember which though.
Clansman was originally Euston- Inverness via Trent valley. Only later did it go via brum. I used to do Settle - Stirling in mid 80's, Settle - Carlisle, then change into the Clansman. No idea when it started tho.
 

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Clansman was originally Euston- Inverness via Trent valley. Only later did it go via brum. I used to do Settle - Stirling in mid 80's, Settle - Carlisle, then change into the Clansman. No idea when it started tho.
I came across the attached for sale on eBay currently, https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274858441716, it shows the 1976 London Paddington to Glasgow Central/Edinburgh "Clansman" service. EDIT see next post for correction.
However the one we're talking about is the later Euston-Inverness one. By 1986 it was a portion of the 07:45 Euston-Glasgow/Inverness and I think the latter portion served Edinburgh.
There is also a thread here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-clansman-and-other-childhood-memories.139894/
1629636994684.png

So by 1986 the Clansman was a portion of a fast Trent Valley service, but previously:
1974-75 1S59 09:35 Euston-Inverness via Birmingham in front of 1G24 09:40 Euston-Wolverhampton/Aberystwyth
1975-76 1S59 09:35 Euston-Inverness via Birmingham in front of 1G24 09:40 Euston-Wolverhampton/Aberystwyth
1976-77 1S59 09:40 Euston-Inverness via Birmingham (no separate Wolverhampton service any more, but Abersytwyth ran summer SO at 09:35 in front of 1S59)
1979-80 1S59 09:35 Euston-Inverness via Birmingham (Watford Junction stop added since 1976, no separate Wolverhampton service any more still, Aberystwyth summer SO departure now 10:10)
1980-81 1S59 09:35 Euston-Inverness via Birmingham
1983-84 1S59 09:30 Euston-Inverness via Birmingham

EDIT Presumably at some point after 1976-77 the Paddington service stopped and the name was transferred. However I can't find a Paddington-Glasgow/Edinburgh in my 1976 WTT.
FURTHER EDIT: hexagon789 has explained in the following post. And
1S63 06:45 Paddington-Glasgow started running in 1983.
 
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I came across the attached for sale on eBay currently, https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274858441716, it shows the 1976 London Paddington to Glasgow Central/Edinburgh "Clansman" service.
However the one we're talking about is the later Euston-Inverness one. By 1986 it was a portion of the 07:45 Euston-Glasgow/Inverness and I think the latter portion served Edinburgh.
There is also a thread here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-clansman-and-other-childhood-memories.139894/
View attachment 101485
They are two separate leaflets. On the left is a leaflet for the Euston-Birmingham-Inverness 'The Clansman', on the right is a separate leaflet for the Paddington-Glasgow/Edinburgh XC service which started in 1983.

It was 1987 when The Clansman started running to Edinburgh before travelling up the Highland Main Line. In 1986 it was still direct from Mossend to Inverness albeit as the portion off tge 0745 Euston-Glasgow 110mph working as you mention, rather than a separate train purely to Inverness. This was also the only time The Clansman was routed direct via the Trent Valley instead of its traditional route via Birmingham.

Clansman was originally Euston- Inverness via Trent valley. Only later did it go via brum. I used to do Settle - Stirling in mid 80's, Settle - Carlisle, then change into the Clansman. No idea when it started tho.
No, it was via Birmingham May 1974-May 1986 timetable without exception, that was its normal routing. It ran via the Trent Valley for one year only - 1986, as a portion off a 110mph Glasgow working which ran via the Trent Valley. In May 1987 it was back to via Birmingham and now it ran to Edinburgh first before then travelling up the HML to Inverness which it then did until its withdrawal.

The whole point of the inception of The Clansman was not purely to link Inverness and the Highlands with London but also with the Midlands and Birmingham hence the routing. There was previously a long-standing Birmingham-Perth day train and The Clansman was in effect an extension of this.
 

alistairlees

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In the 1975 timetable (5 May 1975 to 2 May 1976) the Clansman was routed via Birmingham, with pick up only at Coventry, Birmingham New Street and Wolverhampton. It was intended for Midlands (as well as London) to Highlands traffic.

Timings were

d. 09.35 London Euston
d. 10.39 Coventry
d. 11.05 Birmingham New Street
d. 11.24 Wolverhapton
a. 12.03 Crewe
d. 12.06 Crewe
q. 12.43 Preston
d. 12.45 Preston
a. 13.54 Carlisle
d. 14.03 Carlisle
a. 15.18 Motherwell
a. 15.38 Coatbridge Central
a. 16.05 Stirling
a. 16.49 Perth
a. 18.49 Aviemore
a. 19.40 Inverness

(there were other stops in Scotland; this is just what is in table 65)
 

nickw1

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Interesting, looks therefore like the Clansman was an additional to the standard Birmingham-Scotland pattern. Perhaps 1105 out of Birmingham? EDIT: I see that's been answered by @alistairlees above!

The Clansman, with its one-a-day pattern and via-Birmingham route, reminds me rather of one-a-day services hauled by electric locos in modern day Germany, which were certainly still in existence as recently as 2014. 2009-14 Germany was very reminiscent in some (not all) ways to 1980s UK in terms of rail, not sure if it's changed since. However that's more a subject for the International Transport thread...

I see the Paddington/Scotland leaflet shows the same limited stop pattern as the Clansman: namely Wolverhampton, Crewe, Preston and Carlisle only within England. Wonder if that was standard on the Birmingham-Scotland services?
 

hexagon789

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In the 1975 timetable (5 May 1975 to 2 May 1976) the Clansman was routed via Birmingham, with pick up only at Coventry, Birmingham New Street and Wolverhampton. It was intended for Midlands (as well as London) to Highlands traffic.

Timings were

d. 09.35 London Euston
d. 10.39 Coventry
d. 11.05 Birmingham New Street
d. 11.24 Wolverhapton
a. 12.03 Crewe
d. 12.06 Crewe
q. 12.43 Preston
d. 12.45 Preston
a. 13.54 Carlisle
d. 14.03 Carlisle
a. 15.18 Motherwell
a. 15.38 Coatbridge Central
a. 16.05 Stirling
a. 16.49 Perth
a. 18.49 Aviemore
a. 19.40 Inverness

(there were other stops in Scotland; this is just what is in table 65)
North of Stirling these were:

In May 1974 - Gleneagles, Perth, Pitlochry, Newtonmore and Aviemore.

In May 1975 a Kingussie call was added and these remained the normal calls until The Clansman was inherently changed.
 

nickw1

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In the 1975 timetable (5 May 1975 to 2 May 1976) the Clansman was routed via Birmingham, with pick up only at Coventry, Birmingham New Street and Wolverhampton. It was intended for Midlands (as well as London) to Highlands traffic.

(there were other stops in Scotland; this is just what is in table 65)

The Clansman discussion, with its Birmingham routing, brings to mind my naive thoughts about the WCML when I first visited the area in late 1982 or early 1983. I was blissfully unaware of the Trent Valley route as a mainline for a few months and assumed that ALL services on the WCML would stop at New Street, Birmingham being such a big city. I recall being very puzzled when I actually spent some hours at Stafford one day in Feb 1983 and seeing that none of the Stafford-London services called at New Street. I had visions of them running fast through New Street which seemed odd to say the least. I think the whole concept of a main line avoiding Birmingham was, briefly, rather strange - bearing in mind I wasn't too old.

By summer 1983 I fully understood the existence of the Trent Valley route, however - my ignorance didn't last long ;)
 

jfollows

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I see the Paddington/Scotland leaflet shows the same limited stop pattern as the Clansman: namely Wolverhampton, Crewe, Preston and Carlisle only within England. Wonder if that was standard on the Birmingham-Scotland services?
I think it was, and there was even an up evening service from Glasgow/Edinburgh which I used once which omitted Carlisle also.
(1M47 17:45 Glasgow-Birmingham with portion from Edinburgh at Carstairs passed Carlisle 19/16, Preston 20:24-20:27, Crewe 21:07)
(It was preceded by 1M52 17:30 Glasgow-Euston which called at Carlisle and Preston, but then not at Crewe, where I wanted to change trains I suspect, even though I wasn't living in Wilmslow then but rather Macclesfield.)
 

nickw1

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I think it was, and there was even an up evening service from Glasgow/Edinburgh which I used once which omitted Carlisle also.
(1M47 17:45 Glasgow-Birmingham with portion from Edinburgh at Carstairs passed Carlisle 19/16, Preston 20:24-20:27, Crewe 21:07)
(It was preceded by 1M52 17:30 Glasgow-Euston which called at Carlisle and Preston, but then not at Crewe, where I wanted to change trains I suspect, even though I wasn't living in Wilmslow then but rather Macclesfield.)

Wonder what sort of service Warrington and Wigan had at that time? From what I can make out in 1981, there was an on-the-hour departure from Euston which alternated between North Wales and Preston (might have been Carlisle), the latter calling at Warrington and Wigan. But what about Warrington/Wigan to Birmingham... change at Crewe required?
 

jfollows

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They are two separate leaflets. On the left is a leaflet for the Euston-Birmingham-Inverness 'The Clansman', on the right is a separate leaflet for the Paddington-Glasgow/Edinburgh XC service which started in 1983.
Thank you for pointing this out and correcting me, that's much more sensible and even though I don't trust my memory I'm glad to know that my "I don't remember a Paddington-Glasgow service in 1976" memory was in fact correct this time!

Wonder what sort of service Warrington and Wigan had at that time? From what I can make out in 1981, there was an on-the-hour departure from Euston which alternated between North Wales and Preston (might have been Carlisle), the latter calling at Warrington and Wigan. But what about Warrington/Wigan to Birmingham... change at Crewe required?
Taking 1978-79 as an example, the up "express" departures from Warrington were (all calling at Crewe)
(WTT departure times, so usually advertised as departing one or two minute earlier)
1A13 07:31 Euston from Blackpool North
1A22 08:32 Euston from Carlisle
1A26 09:15 Euston from Carlisle
1A36 10:31 Euston from Blackpool North
1K22 11:28 Crewe from Carlisle (81-85 electric + VB stock)
1M25 11:35 Euston from Glasgow via Dumfries
1K31 13:09 Crewe from Barrow
1G08 13:34 SO Birmingham dated from Blackpool North
1A55 14:31 Euston from Blackpool North
1M34 15:10 Euston from Glasgow
1K32 16:14 Crewe from Preston
1A72 17:32 Euston from Blackpool North
1K33 18:14 Crewe from Preston
1M46 19:13 Euston from Glasgow
1K06 19:31 Crewe from Blackpool North
1M47 20:48 Birmingham from Glasgow (this one didn't stop at Carlisle still, Carstairs-Preston-Warrington-Crewe, so also omitted Wigan)

Basically the Euston-Glasgow and Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh called at Preston and Carlisle only with intermediate stops from a mixture of services, all electrically hauled still though.

The Clansman discussion, with its Birmingham routing, brings to mind my naive thoughts about the WCML when I first visited the area in late 1982 or early 1983. I was blissfully unaware of the Trent Valley route as a mainline for a few months and assumed that ALL services on the WCML would stop at New Street, Birmingham being such a big city. I recall being very puzzled when I actually spent some hours at Stafford one day in Feb 1983 and seeing that none of the Stafford-London services called at New Street. I had visions of them running fast through New Street which seemed odd to say the least. I think the whole concept of a main line avoiding Birmingham was, briefly, rather strange - bearing in mind I wasn't too old.

By summer 1983 I fully understood the existence of the Trent Valley route, however - my ignorance didn't last long ;)
A few years before you, but not that many, maybe around 1975, I made a similar mistake with the Stone-Hixon-Colwich direct route, and was wondering why we hadn't gone through Stafford on my first Manchester-London train trip .... perhaps summer 1975 to Paris with a school group for an exchange visit? After scratching my head and doing a bit of reading I worked it out in the end.
 
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