The evolution of Cross Country

[MontyP]

Sorry, can confirm that's a typo - should read 1337 as per pattern.



Just seems to terminate at Reading.



Apologies, I have misread it. There's two services which are continued in non-adjacent columns and I've mixed them. The 1318 Reading call was the 0920 Manchester to Poole. The 0920 off Liverpool went to Penzance.


Which is actually exactly what the Scottish Region did for the 1982 Basic Interval Timetable on the Edinburgh-Aberdeen route. The introduction of HST differentials allowed significantly accelerated HST schedules on this corridor from May 1982 and the timetable was 'flexed' so that there were different departure minutes off Aberdeen depending if the service was an HST or not. The departure/arrival times at Edinburgh were fixed instead.



Roughly hourly at XX.55 off Birmingham and mostly alternating between either Manchester or Liverpool, though there are a few instances where two in a row serve one destination.

The NE/SW HSTs to the North East are roughly hourly as well at XX.50 off Birmingham.

I think this was the period (which lasted quite a few years, maybe late 70s until early 90s) where the service pattern was hourly NW-SE and hourly NE-SW, timed to cross at New St so that passengers could switch between the two services. The NW services mostly alternated between Manchester and Liverpool, and the NE ones between Leeds and Newcastle but there were a few exceptions such as the daily Leeds-Poole, Liverpool-Penzance, a couple of Manchester-Bristol services and I think there was a single daytime Edinburgh/Glasgow-Bristol, which in later years switched to Poole, and I think for a while ran to Brighton. I remember that the departure times from Leeds were quite variable as they needed to fit into the standard pattern at New St but had very variable stopping patterns - all called at Sheffield and Derby, but some also called at Rotherham, Chesterfield etc. This was in the days when these services all used the old Midland line to Sheffield so didn't stop at Wakefield.

 

[30907]

What's also notable is that journey time Reading-Birmingham and v.v. seemed to be around 2 hours, longer than post-Princess.

Belatedly: that's correct - I recall Birmingham-Oxford via Solihull being 80 minutes and via Coventry was longer. Remember we are talking 47s timed for 9 coaches (or even 11, when the Newcastle/Leeds-Poole was a portion working) and not much 90mph track north of Didcot.
Whatever we think about XC today, their trains can accelerate!

 

[hexagon789]

I think this was the period (which lasted quite a few years, maybe late 70s until early 90s) where the service pattern was hourly NW-SE and hourly NE-SW, timed to cross at New St so that passengers could switch between the two services. The NW services mostly alternated between Manchester and Liverpool, and the NE ones between Leeds and Newcastle but there were a few exceptions such as the daily Leeds-Poole, Liverpool-Penzance, a couple of Manchester-Bristol services and I think there was a single daytime Edinburgh/Glasgow-Bristol, which in later years switched to Poole, and I think for a while ran to Brighton. I remember that the departure times from Leeds were quite variable as they needed to fit into the standard pattern at New St but had very variable stopping patterns - all called at Sheffield and Derby, but some also called at Rotherham, Chesterfield etc. This was in the days when these services all used the old Midland line to Sheffield so didn't stop at Wakefield.

I believe that was the original intention when the two routings were overhauled and improved in frequency - that there would be cross-platform interchanges at Birmingham New Street between both of the cross-country axes, particularly so when the NE-SW became HSTs and services were accelerated by an average of 45 mins.

 

[Grecian 1998]

When Virgin took over the XC franchise they produced this document which has lots of info on the background of the routes.

That's a pretty comprehensive historical summary and is consistent with what I've read before.

AIUI when HSTs were introduced to Crosscountry in 1982 they were concentrated on SW - NE services as virtually none of the route was electrified (the ECML wasn't electrified until 1989-91). They were then introduced onto SC - NE workings from Poole and Bournemouth in 1991 after some sets were displaced by the ECML electrification. I think some found their way onto services to Glasgow Central up the WCML but not Liverpool or Manchester, which remained loco hauled until the introduction of the Voyagers.

After electrification of the WCML was completed in 1974, the SC - NW and SW - NW services were generally diesel hauled south of Birmingham and hauled by a class 86 northwards. After sectorisation in 1986, the diesel leg was invariably a class 47 as these locos were allocated to the Intercity sector; the more powerful class 50s all went to Network SouthEast.

I have the 1991-92 timetable and whilst it isn't clearly stated which trains are HST worked and which are loco hauled, it can generally be worked out from the point to point journey times e.g. 24 minutes for Exeter - Taunton non-stop for a HST v 28 minutes non-stop for a class 47.

One other interesting point is that IIRC reading this correctly, until 1979 summer Saturday crosscountry trains to Weymouth from points north used to travel via Bristol and the Heart of Wessex line. They then became extensions of the Bournemouth / Poole services which seems rather more logical.

 

[nw1]

9

(Re: Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool and v.v.):

Roughly hourly at XX.55 off Birmingham and mostly alternating between either Manchester or Liverpool,

That was definitely the pattern in 1983/4 and previously; what would be interesting to see is whether there was a pattern in 1984/85, which is when the timings of XC services at Stafford, particularly southbound, seemed to be more 'random' than the previous year.

Southbound (before 1984, at least) there seemed to be a consistent xx20 from both Liverpool and Manchester. I distinctly remember the xx20-xx37 combo at Liverpool and Runcorn cropping up a lot.

though there are a few instances where two in a row serve one destination.

The anomaly of the 1337 from Reading (1555 Birmingham) going to Liverpool in 1983/4 would be one, as the general pattern seemed to be odd hours Manchester, even hours Liverpool.

 

[Ken H]

That's a pretty comprehensive historical summary and is consistent with what I've read before.

AIUI when HSTs were introduced to Crosscountry in 1982 they were concentrated on SW - NE services as virtually none of the route was electrified (the ECML wasn't electrified until 1989-91). They were then introduced onto SC - NE workings from Poole and Bournemouth in 1991 after some sets were displaced by the ECML electrification. I think some found their way onto services to Glasgow Central up the WCML but not Liverpool or Manchester, which remained loco hauled until the introduction of the Voyagers.

After electrification of the WCML was completed in 1974, the SC - NW and SW - NW services were generally diesel hauled south of Birmingham and hauled by a class 86 northwards. After sectorisation in 1986, the diesel leg was invariably a class 47 as these locos were allocated to the Intercity sector; the more powerful class 50s all went to Network SouthEast.

I have the 1991-92 timetable and whilst it isn't clearly stated which trains are HST worked and which are loco hauled, it can generally be worked out from the point to point journey times e.g. 24 minutes for Exeter - Taunton non-stop for a HST v 28 minutes non-stop for a class 47.

One other interesting point is that IIRC reading this correctly, until 1979 summer Saturday crosscountry trains to Weymouth from points north used to travel via Bristol and the Heart of Wessex line. They then became extensions of the Bournemouth / Poole services which seems rather more logical.

I am sure XC HST's get to Manchester in BR days. would an HST and Cl86 + coaches have similar timings?
I also think most XC HST workings were 110mph to avoid second manning.

 

[nw1]

Belatedly: that's correct - I recall Birmingham-Oxford via Solihull being 80 minutes and via Coventry was longer. Remember we are talking 47s timed for 9 coaches (or even 11, when the Newcastle/Leeds-Poole was a portion working) and not much 90mph track north of Didcot.
Whatever we think about XC today, their trains can accelerate!

The other thing is that 80s XC was a much more sedate, relaxed affair... so even if the trains took longer, you didn't notice it because the whole journey was more relaxing! Never during any 80s/early 90s XC trips (5 return trips to Stafford from 1982-90) do I remember XC being anything close to standing-room-only. Seemed to change around 1996/7 or so when services (still in the hauled/HST era) were frequently full and standing at peak times.

On the other hand Birmingham-Stafford was pretty fast, the most common timing seemed to be xx55-xx26, with one stop at Wolverhampton. This of course was the days of a non-clogged-up railway, with the Birmingham-Wolverhampton section not full-to-bursting: with one ex-Euston, two-on-average XCs and two stoppers an hour - doubtless timed carefully to avoid holding up the fasts.

I am sure XC HST's get to Manchester in BR days. would an HST and Cl86 + coaches have similar timings?
I also think most XC HST workings were 110mph to avoid second manning.

I can confiirm that they definitely did by summer 1984, I distinctly remember Bristol-Manchester and Bristol-Liverpool workings at Stafford that year.

 

[Taunton]

1950s-60s : We seem to have got into a whole lot of "non London" routes, even London gets a look-in at Paddington. There was a long tradition that, despite the new line through Bicester being opened in 1900, some Paddington to Birmingham trains continued to travel the old way through Reading, which gave direct routings such as Birmingham to Oxford or Reading, as well as Oxford to Paddington. Often they were combined at Oxford with services from Worcester. There were further through services that came this way to Reading and then either reversed to Bournemouth, or on to Kent via reversal at Redhill. The Birkenhead to Margate through train was a longstanding one.

Further services came down the GC line and joined at Banbury. A Bournemouth to Newcastle daily service came this way until the 1960s, along with various summer Saturday additional services. Even more surprising for routing was another longstanding service from Newcastle to Swansea, via the GC line and Didcot west curve. As with many such services, it did most of its business from the intermediate stations rather than end to end. Apparently on the GC line by the 1960s the cross-country services were much better patronised than those to London Marylebone. The Swansea service in past years had even run on from Banbury via the hilly and obscure single line to Cheltenham and onwards, known as "Over the Alps". George Behrend in his book "Gone With Regret" wrote he took this service when he was demobbed from the army in 1945, and was pleased it was running via Oxford instead.

 

[Ken H]

As an aside I thought XC workings in the 70's and 80's were fascinating. A rich range of rolling stock, lots of shunting en-route, odd routings (NE-Brum via Leicester and the Nuneaton flyover!) etc. Probably less good for the non enthusiast, with extended timings, tatty coaches etc. And a growing motorway network...

 

[nw1]

As an aside I thought XC workings in the 70's and 80's were fascinating. A rich range of rolling stock, lots of shunting en-route, odd routings (NE-Brum via Leicester and the Nuneaton flyover!) etc. Probably less good for the non enthusiast, with extended timings, tatty coaches etc. And a growing motorway network...

Same for me, though my knowledge of the 70s is restricted to old timetables. The loco change at Birmingham with mostly 47s south, and mostly 86s north, was another source of interest.

Not sure 80s XC was so bad for the non-enthusiast. As I said above, 80s XC was a relaxed affair, rarely overcrowded and were Mk-IIs really that tatty? Also remember there was no M40 then, so timings from the Thames Valley to Birmingham probably compared well with the road route.

(As someone who likes interesting journeys, the road route was also much more interesting in those days, if slower, and just like the railway was rarely overcrowded, the road was rarely jammed up. Who remembers the A34 route from Oxford through Stratford to the M42 in the 80s? Lovely route, through the east Cotswolds).

There seemed to be much more a sense of 'journey' in going from the Thames Valley to the midlands in those days, and rail - and even road - still had some romance.

 

[JonathanH]

I think some found their way onto services to Glasgow Central up the WCML but not Liverpool or Manchester, which remained loco hauled until the introduction of the Voyagers.

Manchester sent out three HSTs to Bournemouth after the 1991 changes, right through to the Voyager changes. One was Manchester - Bournemouth - Manchester. The other two worked back to Edinburgh (and vice versa).

 

[nw1]

Manchester sent out three HSTs to Bournemouth after the 1991 changes, right through to the Voyager changes. One was Manchester - Bournemouth - Manchester. The other two worked back to Edinburgh (and vice versa).

By 1996/7 (the transition to Virgin) there were quite a few HSTs to Bournemouth. Northbound timings from Southampton were, approximately:

0950 to York, though this became 47+coaches later
1150 Glasgow,, Wessex Scot via WCML
1250 Edinburgh, Dorset Scot via ECML
1450 Manchester, Pines Express
1650 Manchester
1750 Manchester
1950 Birmingham, introduced for 1997 timetable I think. Terminated Reading on Saturdays

There were also loco-hauled services at around 0630 (Scotland via Manchester), 0730 (Liverpool), and 1850 (Manchester).

As is often the case, I don't remember the southbound workings nearly as clearly as the northbound, but everything was 'in-out' at Bournemouth, no complicated diagrams. However from what you've said I'd guess the 1450 was the return working of a Manchester, while the 1650 and 1750 were return workings of services from Scotland. The 0950 was presumably an HST which spent the night at Bournemouth.

 

[Ken H]

By 1996/7 (the transition to Virgin) there were quite a few HSTs to Bournemouth. Northbound timings from Southampton were, approximately:

0950 to York, though this became 47+coaches later
1150 Glasgow,, Wessex Scot via WCML
1250 Edinburgh, Dorset Scot via ECML
1450 Manchester, Pines Express
1650 Manchester
1750 Manchester
1950 Birmingham, introduced for 1997 timetable I think. Terminated Reading on Saturdays

There were also loco-hauled services at around 0630 (Scotland via Manchester), 0730 (Liverpool), and 1850 (Manchester).

As is often the case, I don't remember the southbound workings nearly as clearly as the northbound, but everything was 'in-out' at Bournemouth, no complicated diagrams.

The penny pinching of the Department of Transport when authorising the investment in XC HST's was a big impediment to XC growth. I remember commuting Cheltenham - Bristol in 2001 and still they were operating Cl47 + Mk2. Reliability was dire, so I used to ring train enquiries on the way to the station and if my train was badly delayed, I would drive. Gauge corner cracking didnt help mind.

 

[JonathanH]

By 1996/7 (the transition to Virgin) there were quite a few HSTs to Bournemouth. Northbound timings from Southampton were, approximately:

0950 to York, though this became 47+coaches later
1150 Glasgow,, Wessex Scot via WCML
1250 Edinburgh, Dorset Scot via ECML
1450 Manchester, Pines Express
1650 Manchester
1750 Manchester
1950 Birmingham, introduced for 1997 timetable I think. Terminated Reading on Saturdays

There were also loco-hauled services at around 0630 (Scotland via Manchester), 0730 (Liverpool), and 1850 (Manchester).

As is often the case, I don't remember the southbound workings nearly as clearly as the northbound, but everything was 'in-out' at Bournemouth, no complicated diagrams. However from what you've said I'd guess the 1450 was the return working of a Manchester, while the 1650 and 1750 were return workings of services from Scotland. The 0950 was presumably an HST which spent the night at Bournemouth.

The York service was only a HST for one timetable, when it ran through to Scotland, and was the original Dorset Scot. It then reverted to 47+coaches. I've never been clear on what the operational arrangements were for the HST in that first post-ECML transfer on the 09xx service from Poole as HSTs didn't stay overnight at Bournemouth in any subsequent timetable. (Indeed, during the 1994 Railtrack signalling strikes, when they were arranged over two half days, the 'Scot' services started short at Reading, not Bournemouth.)

The southbound HST workings from Manchester were 0517, 0617, 0817. As an out and back diagram, the 0817 got a 47+coaches if there were insufficient HSTs available.

 

[nw1]

The York service was only a HST for one timetable, when it ran through to Scotland, and was the original Dorset Scot. It then reverted to 47+coaches. I've never been clear on what the operational arrangements were for the HST in that first post-ECML transfer on the 09xx service from Poole as HSTs didn't stay overnight at Bournemouth in any subsequent timetable. (Indeed, during the 1994 Railtrack signalling strikes, when they were arranged over two half days, the 'Scot' services started short at Reading, not Bournemouth.)

I am fairly sure the York was, at least for a time, still an HST when it terminated at York. Perhaps 1996/97, perhaps 1997/98. So maybe it flip-flopped between HST and 47-hauled a few times? (I lost touch with XC in the early-mid 90s for a good few years, only becoming aware of service patterns again in 1996)

The southbound HST workings from Manchester were 0517, 0617, 0817. As an out and back diagram, the 0817 got a 47+coaches if there were insufficient HSTs available.

Yes, I remember the xx17 off Manchester now you mention it, I'm fairly sure Birmingham was xx06, almost the same as the post-Princess xx03.

Remember the hourly Manchester services going to a range of destinations: sometimes Bournemouth, sometimes Bristol, often just Birmingham - in the latter case, 86+coaches being the norm. For a time I think there was even one service using a 158 - which skipped some intermediate stops such as Stafford due to the limited capacity! As said in another thread, these were supplemented in the peak by additionals operated with 309s, though I think these were run by another company (North Western Trains, or whatever the first version of that franchise was).

 

[Ken H]

Yes, I remember the xx17 off Manchester now you mention it, I'm fairly sure Birmingham was xx06, almost the same as the post-Princess xx03.

Remember the hourly Manchester services going to a range of destinations: sometimes Bournemouth, sometimes Bristol, often just Birmingham - in the latter case, 86+coaches being the norm. For a time I think there was even one service using a 158 - which skipped some intermediate stops such as Stafford due to the limited capacity! As said in another thread, these were supplemented in the peak by additionals operated with 309s, though I think these were run by another company (North Western Trains, or whatever the first version of that franchise was).

I had forgotten XC had a small fleet of 158's. They used them for Gloucester - Swindon and Manchester - Glasgow. not sure where else.

 

[nw1]

The penny pinching of the Department of Transport when authorising the investment in XC HST's was a big impediment to XC growth. I remember commuting Cheltenham - Bristol in 2001 and still they were operating Cl47 + Mk2. Reliability was dire, so I used to ring train enquiries on the way to the station and if my train was badly delayed, I would drive. Gauge corner cracking didnt help mind.

As an aside I recall one occasion in November 2001 when I saw orange sparks being emitted a northbound 47+coaches as it travelled north through Beaulieu Road. It was a Sunday and had just got dark, so I'd guess the 1750 northbound from Southampton (I do recall less HSTs and more 47-hauled on Sundays). I was alarmed enough to call the operator via the communication point on the station to advise them, though whether it was a real problem I don't know. Probably not, but I thought it was better safe than sorry to call them.

Just shows how late 'classic' working remained on this route though! Indeed, my first rail journey of the year 2000 was an XC from Southampton to the north, complete with loco change from 47->86 at New Street.

I had forgotten XC had a small fleet of 158's. They used them for Gloucester - Swindon and Manchester - Glasgow. not sure where else.

They also used them for the Portsmouth services for a time, when these were reintroduced in the late 90s. At least one of these later became an HST. These were run as additionals to the hourly pattern and I think as 158s, due to the limited capacity again, may have run fast from Oxford to Birmingham.

 

[irish_rail]

That's a pretty comprehensive historical summary and is consistent with what I've read before.

AIUI when HSTs were introduced to Crosscountry in 1982 they were concentrated on SW - NE services as virtually none of the route was electrified (the ECML wasn't electrified until 1989-91). They were then introduced onto SC - NE workings from Poole and Bournemouth in 1991 after some sets were displaced by the ECML electrification. I think some found their way onto services to Glasgow Central up the WCML but not Liverpool or Manchester, which remained loco hauled until the introduction of the Voyagers.

After electrification of the WCML was completed in 1974, the SC - NW and SW - NW services were generally diesel hauled south of Birmingham and hauled by a class 86 northwards. After sectorisation in 1986, the diesel leg was invariably a class 47 as these locos were allocated to the Intercity sector; the more powerful class 50s all went to Network SouthEast.

I have the 1991-92 timetable and whilst it isn't clearly stated which trains are HST worked and which are loco hauled, it can generally be worked out from the point to point journey times e.g. 24 minutes for Exeter - Taunton non-stop for a HST v 28 minutes non-stop for a class 47.

One other interesting point is that IIRC reading this correctly, until 1979 summer Saturday crosscountry trains to Weymouth from points north used to travel via Bristol and the Heart of Wessex line. They then became extensions of the Bournemouth / Poole services which seems rather more logical.

Pretty sure there was a Liverpool to Plymouth HST in the early 90s well before voyaguerisation (leaving Lime St mid morning having arrived in from Bristol) although i think rest of the north west to south west trains by that time were loco hauled...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Missing from the above narratives are the XC services to ports in Kent and elsewhere in the SE from (I think) 1985 to 1993-ish.
I was quite a regular user of the 1033 Reading (ex-Liverpool)-Folkestone service via Kensington O, Bromley South and Chatham to Dover and Folkestone.
This ran ECS to Ashford for servicing, then returned via the same route in the late afternoon.
On Saturdays in the summer it ran round Kent in a circle in service, returning from Folkestone via Tonbridge and Orpington to Bromley South and the WLL.
I used the train to view the Eurotunnel construction works at Cheriton, and the BR upgrades of the connecting lines.

XC also tried to serve Newhaven and Ramsgate ports as well as Portsmouth and Poole, but gradually cut trains back east of Reading except the Brighton.
Newhaven was served by the XC "Brighton" trains on certain days.
Trains via the WLL also used to stop in the Travelcard area (very handy for cross-London travel avoiding LU) but gradually the Olympia and Clapham Jn stops were dropped.
There were some fascinating diversions at weekends, including via Nunhead/Chislehurst, Crystal Palace/Staines/Ascot and Guildford.
During this time, the direct GWML/WLL connection at Old Oak Common East was removed to allow the Eurostar depot at North Pole to be built, the XC diversion being via Acton Wells Jn and West London Jn.
The WLL was also electrified and resignalled for Eurostar and Channel Tunnel freight traffic during this period.

 

[nw1]

Missing from the above narratives are the XC services to ports in Kent and elsewhere in the SE from (I think) 1985 to 1993-ish.
I was quite a regular user of the 1033 Reading (ex-Liverpool)-Folkestone service via Kensington O, Bromley South and Chatham to Dover and Folkestone.
This ran ECS to Ashford for servicing, then returned via the same route in the late afternoon.
On Saturdays in the summer it ran round Kent in a circle in service, returning from Folkestone via Tonbridge and Orpington to Bromley South and the WLL.
I used the train to view the Eurotunnel construction works at Cheriton, and the BR upgrades of the connecting lines.

XC also tried to serve Newhaven and Ramsgate ports as well as Portsmouth and Poole, but gradually cut trains back east of Reading except the Brighton.
Newhaven was served by the XC "Brighton" trains on certain days.
Trains via the WLL also used to stop in the Travelcard area (very handy for cross-London travel avoiding LU) but gradually the Olympia and Clapham Jn stops were dropped.
There were some fascinating diversions at weekends, including via Nunhead/Chislehurst, Crystal Palace/Staines/Ascot and Guildford.
During this time, the direct GWML/WLL connection at Old Oak Common East was removed to allow the Eurostar depot at North Pole to be built, the XC diversion being via Acton Wells Jn and West London Jn.
The WLL was also electrified and resignalled for Eurostar and Channel Tunnel freight traffic during this period.

Was just coming to that era

Yes, some fairly big changes in 1986. Will come back to the Reading pattern later, but a key feature of the 1986 timetable was the routing of the Brightons, along with the new Kent services, via the WCML, calling at Clapham Junction, Kensington Olympia and Watford Junction. Quite a bit of detail at 1s76.com on Brighton services specifically.

These changed loco somewhere near Willesden, rather than at a station and for a time would have presumably produced some pretty fast links to the north from Brighton. Some went via Birmingham, others via the Trent Valley.

The Clapham Junction calls came at the same time that services on the SWML were beginning to call there. I never did it, but I wonder if 'via Clapham Junction' would have been a valid 'not London' route from the Waterloo network to the midlands and north?

At that time there were two through services from Portsmouth via Reading though, so perhaps this wouldn't be so valuable from the Guildford area. Closer into London, such as Woking, Weybridge etc, however...

As I said will return to the Reading pattern later but in a nutshell, no Brightons at Reading in 1986, and more Portsmouths and Paddingtons to compensate.

 

[jfollows]

1993 Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool if it's of any interest (from Manchester/Liverpool area CE WTT 17/5/93 to 3/10/93)

DOWN
1H03 07:19 Stafford-Manchester E245 SX arrive Manchester 08z29
1H01 07:50 Crewe-Manchester E245 SX arrive Manchester 08w39
2F65 08:02 Crewe-Liverpool D210 SX arrive Liverpool 08w48
1H21 08:00 Birmingham-Manchester via Stoke E245 SX arrive Manchester 09v33
1M55 08:05 Bristol-Liverpool HST arrive Liverpool 09:33 (1F11 07:55 Birmingham E245 SO)
1M90 06:05 Bristol-Manchester via Stoke HST SO arrive Manchester 09:43
1S59 06:00 Paddington-Edinburgh via Stoke D245 arrive Manchester (platform 14) 10:22
1H23 09:35 Birmingham-Manchester via Stoke E245 arrive Manchester 11v09
1M01 05:54 Bournemouth-Liverpool E245 arrive Liverpool 11w33 (07:18 Paddington SO)
1M88 06:40 Poole-Manchester via Stoke D245 arrive Manchester 12w15
1M20 09:34 Reading-Manchester via Crewe D245 arrive Manchester 13z12 (09:06 Paddington SO and Q)
1H24 12:35 Birmingham-Manchester via Stoke E245 arrive Manchester 14y07 (08:45 Plymouth SO)
1H25 13:35 Birmingham-Manchester via Stoke E245 arrive Manchester 15y07 (09:55 Paignton SO)
1M13 09:33 Weymouth-Manchester via Liverpool D245 SO arrive Liverpool 15:39, depart Livepool 15:54 arrive Manchester (Piccadilly) 16:45
1H22 10:15 Plymouth-Manchester via Stoke E245 arrive Manchester 16v09 (14:35 Birmingham SO)
1H26 15:15 International-Manchester via Stoke E245 arrive Manchester 17y07
1M40 11:44 Plymouth-Liverpool E245 arrive Liverpool 17v33 (12:05 Paignton SO)
1M56 10:30 Penzance-Manchester via Stoke E245 SO arrive Manchester 18:03
1M17 14:03 Paddington-Manchester via Stoke D245 arrive Manchester 18:19
1F91 17:16 International-Liverpool E245 arrive Liverpool 19z09
1M14 14:20 Bournemouth-Manchester via Stoke HST arrive Manchester 19:24
1M79 13:43 Dover-Liverpool D245 SO 24/7 to 28/8 arrive Liverpool 19:54
1M50 13:55 Eastbourne-Manchester via Stoke D245 arrive Manchester 20w15 (14:20 Brighton SX)
1M79 16:54 Reading-Liverpool E245 SX arrive Liverpool 20z41
1M25 16:17 Bournemouth-Manchester via Stoke HST arrive Manchester 21:37
1M42 16:11 Paignton-Liverpool D245 SO arrive Liverpool 21y40
1M41 17:16 Bournemouth-Manchester via Crewe HST arrive Manchester 22v28

v - Advertised 1 minute later
w - Advertised 2 minutes later
y - Advertised 3 minutes later
z - Advertised 4 minutes later

Hopefully it's reasonably clear - D/E245 means diesel/electric with 7 coaches and refers to the section north of Birmingham, so some trains from further change from diesel to electric en route whereas some don't.

UP trains to follow in due course

These changed loco somewhere near Willesden, rather than at a station and for a time would have presumably produced some pretty fast links to the north from Brighton. Some went via Birmingham, others via the Trent Valley.

For example, in 1986 (I think)
1O66 06:44 Manchester Piccadilly to Brighton, Rugby & Watford Junction after Stafford, Mitre Bridge Junction 09:32.
I once went on this, or something like it, and then rode on the locomotive (Class 86) to Stonebridge Park depot for tea, then return on it for
1M50 10:15 Brighton, 11:39 Mitre Bridge Junction to Manchester Piccadilly, via Birmingham area this time.

 

[Grecian 1998]

I stand corrected about HSTs working to and from Liverpool and Manchester.

I also think most XC HST workings were 110mph to avoid second manning.

That seems likely. Pre-Operation Princess, I don't think there was any 125mph running on the XC network anyway other than between Doncaster and Newcastle (not sure if there is any north of Newcastle). Birmingham - Derby was upgraded to 125mph as part of Operation Princess but was previously 90mph. Given XC have always tended to stop at Darlington and Durham between York and Newcastle, any time savings would likely be negligible.

Just shows how late 'classic' working remained on this route though! Indeed, my first rail journey of the year 2000 was an XC from Southampton to the north, complete with loco change from 47->86 at New Street.

I was in Southampton from 2001-04. When I first arrived there were XC class 47s and Valenta HSTs and a large variety of 442s and slammers for both SWT and Connex / Southern. When I left 2.5 years later, there were XC Voyagers and 444s / 450s everywhere with few slammers left (although the 442s were still there until 2007). A rapid change.

 

[Bald Rick]

Never during any 80s/early 90s XC trips (5 return trips to Stafford from 1982-90) do I remember XC being anything close to standing-room-only.

As I said above, 80s XC was a relaxed affair, rarely overcrowded and were Mk-IIs really that tatty?

I’ll have to disagree with you there. I travelled Reading - Wolverhampton on the Wessex Scot (it may even have been the Dorest Scot if such a train existed) one summer day in 1985 or 1986. Must have been Load 11 - MkIIs of various types in various colours and a Mk I buffet IIRC. Absolutely wedged, and my sister and I stood most of the way. All the more annoying as a near empty relief had run from Reading 20 minutes ahead of it, which I let go as it wasn’t in the timetable and therefore I was anxious it might not go where it said it was going. (This was, I think, my first ever long distance journey without parents). It was similarly wedged on the way back. My Dad had similar experiences.

As someone who likes interesting journeys, the road route was also much more interesting in those days, if slower, and just like the railway was rarely overcrowded, the road was rarely jammed up. Who remembers the A34 route from Oxford through Stratford to the M42 in the 80s? Lovely route, through the east Cotswold

I think your rose tinted specs may need cleaning! My family used to do that trip 3/4 times a year and I can only ever remember the A34 (as it was then) being slow, twisty, and an endless chain of caravans, slow Lorries etc. The traffic through Woodstock, Shipston on Stour and particularly Stratford was universally horrendous. By about 1984 we gave up that route and used the A423 / A41 combination via Banbury, much better - typically half an hour quicker from Oxford to Wolverhampton.

 

[hexagon789]

I also think most XC HST workings were 110mph to avoid second manning.

That would depend - because originally the threshold was 100 not 110, so the question is when did BR get agreement with the unions for 110mph running with single manning?

 

[nw1]

I’ll have to disagree with you there. I travelled Reading - Wolverhampton on the Wessex Scot (it may even have been the Dorest Scot if such a train existed) one summer day in 1985 or 1986. Must have been Load 11 - MkIIs of various types in various colours and a Mk I buffet IIRC. Absolutely wedged, and my sister and I stood most of the way. All the more annoying as a near empty relief had run from Reading 20 minutes ahead of it, which I let go as it wasn’t in the timetable and therefore I was anxious it might not go where it said it was going. (This was, I think, my first ever long distance journey without parents). It was similarly wedged on the way back. My Dad had similar experiences.


I think your rose tinted specs may need cleaning! My family used to do that trip 3/4 times a year and I can only ever remember the A34 (as it was then) being slow, twisty, and an endless chain of caravans, slow Lorries etc. The traffic through Woodstock, Shipston on Stour and particularly Stratford was universally horrendous. By about 1984 we gave up that route and used the A423 / A41 combination via Banbury, much better - typically half an hour quicker from Oxford to Wolverhampton.

Maybe I just got lucky then! One point I will make is that none of the five XC journeys in that era were during the school summer holidays: the closest was northbound Saturday, southbound Sunday on a weekend in early July in 1983 (just as the famous heatwave of that year was getting going). Healthily loaded, but not overcrowded. I should say that on most occasions I didn't use the Poole XCs: I used a mixture of Portsmouths, Paddingtons and a Brighton - with only one Poole service in the 1980s, and that was the southbound 'Wessex Scot' on a Sunday in early November 1984 - scarcely a busy time of year. So perhaps yes, the Pooles were busier than the others.

I did go Southampton-Stafford and v.v. in June 1990, however, on an ex-Poole 47-and-coaches, and I don't recall that being overcrowded.

Similarly we (went up with family) may have got lucky with the A34, again we tended to avoid weekday rush-hours and the peak summer season. We did try various other routes as well, including various A roads from Slough to Watford and then the M1, and the M4-Swindon-Cirencester-Cheltenham-M5 route. It was slow compared to a motorway, I'll grant you that - but I don't recall many jams, if any - and as someone interested in countryside and scenery there was something to look at most of the time.

Nonetheless I think it is fairly well established, and was certainly my experience, that in general (and there may be exceptions) there was less road congestion and rail overcrowding in the 80s than the 21st century.

1993 Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool if it's of any interest (from Manchester/Liverpool area CE WTT 17/5/93 to 3/10/93)

Thanks for this, interesting insight into my 'blank' period for XC (around 1987-95; even though I used it in 1990 my interest was a bit down at that time for whatever reason). Will compare with 1996/97 as that's the closest timetable I can remember clearly.

DOWN
1H03 07:19 Stafford-Manchester E245 SX arrive Manchester 08z29
1H01 07:50 Crewe-Manchester E245 SX arrive Manchester 08w39
2F65 08:02 Crewe-Liverpool D210 SX arrive Liverpool 08w48
1H21 08:00 Birmingham-Manchester via Stoke E245 SX arrive Manchester 09v33
1M55 08:05 Bristol-Liverpool HST arrive Liverpool 09:33 (1F11 07:55 Birmingham E245 SO)
1M90 06:05 Bristol-Manchester via Stoke HST SO arrive Manchester 09:43
1S59 06:00 Paddington-Edinburgh via Stoke D245 arrive Manchester (platform 14) 10:22

The successor of the 06:30 from Reading from the 1980s?

1H23 09:35 Birmingham-Manchester via Stoke E245 arrive Manchester 11v09

Looks like there was a standardised xx35 pattern for Manchesters by then.

1M01 05:54 Bournemouth-Liverpool E245 arrive Liverpool 11w33 (07:18 Paddington SO)
1M88 06:40 Poole-Manchester via Stoke D245 arrive Manchester 12w15

These changed later in the 90s. The former became a Scotland via Manchester and the latter became a Liverpool. The latter in some shape or form, either as a Liverpool or a Manchester, had presumably operated continuously from 1981-2002 at around 0830 from Reading (though without the 1987-92 and 1994-95 timetables I cannot be absolutely sure).

1M20 09:34 Reading-Manchester via Crewe D245 arrive Manchester 13z12 (09:06 Paddington SO and Q)

The old 0805 from Portsmouth-Manchester living on as a Reading starter... Impressive arrival time at Manchester compared to 1983 though: it was 1226 at Stafford then so would have arrived Manchester c.1325. EDIT: Perhaps Crewe is significantly faster than Stoke, and it didn't change loco at Birmingham, perhaps both contributed.

1M14 14:20 Bournemouth-Manchester via Stoke HST arrive Manchester 19:24

Survived into the late 90s and indeed post-2000.

1M25 16:17 Bournemouth-Manchester via Stoke HST arrive Manchester 21:37
1M41 17:16 Bournemouth-Manchester via Crewe HST arrive Manchester 22v28

These two also survived similarly.

Of interest in this era, compared to the early 80s, is the relatively large amount of 47-hauled working north of Birmingham on various Reading services, with several services marked D245 (for example, the 0934 Reading-Manchester above). This came in around 1985/86 and persisted throughout the early Virgin era. Some trains continued to change loco at New St, but not all.

Also rather less Liverpools by then with a notable gap between arrivals at 1133 and 1733 SX. Did Regional Railways do some form of Birmingham-Liverpool by then? That SO Weymouth to Manchester via Liverpool is an unusual one!

 

[jfollows]

PS Manchester-Stafford-Birmingham is at best 1 minute faster via Crewe than via Stoke, I think I pointed to my analysis in another thread earlier in this one.
(EDIT No, different thread, but see #134 )

1993 Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool if it's of any interest (from Manchester/Liverpool area CE WTT 17/5/93 to 3/10/93)

UP (all via Stoke from Manchester)
1O06 06:18 Manchester-Bournemouth HST
1O99 06:53 Liverpool-Dover D245 SO 24/7 to 28/8
1O66 07:18 Manchester-Brighton D245 (Eastbourne SO)
1G98 07:45 Liverpool-International E245 (1V40 Paignton SO)
1O09 08:18 Manchester-Bournemouth HST
1G97 08:40 Liverpool-Birmingham E245
1V46 09:18 Manchester-Plymouth E245 (Paignton SO)
1O11 10:15 Liverpool-Weymouth D245 SO
1G55 10:18 Manchester-Birmingham E245 (1V47 Penzance HST SO)
1G56 11:18 Manchester-Birmingham E245 (E385 SO I think implies using one of the Birmingham-Euston sets)
1V96 12:18 Manchester-Reading D245 (Paddington SO)
1G58 13:18 Manchester-International E245
1G59 14:18 Manchester-International E245
1O14 15:18 Manchester-Poole D245
1O18 16:08 Liverpool-Poole D245 (1V98 Paddington SO)
1M98 12:40 Glasgow-Birmingham D245 SX (16:18 from Manchester Piccadilly p13)
1V97 17:18 Manchester-Paddington E245 (1G62 Birmingham SO)
1G63 18:00 Manchester-Birmingham E245
1G16 18:18 Liverpool-Birmingham E245
1G65 19:00 Manchester-Birmingham E245 (Q not advertised)

 

[seagull]

Certainly seems that Virgin carried on with many of the traditional offerings until Operation Princess which was a whole brave new world.

I recall in 2001 services such as Manchester-Paddington-Manchester (Cl. 86/47), Gloucester-Swindon-Cheltenham-Swindon-Gloucester (Cl. 158), Birmingham-Portsmouth (06.06 with a Class 158 IIRC) and back to Manchester, as well as services to and from Poole (Cl. 47) , Brighton via Kensington Olympia (Cl. 47), Newquay in the summer (HST).

I seem to recall also that the 06.06 Birmingham-Portsmouth and new Birmingham-Reading shuttles via Solihull were the first trials of Voyagers before they took over everything. But it was a long while ago so I may be wrong.

 

[30907]

Quite a bit of detail at 1s76.com on Brighton services specifically.

Really useful - for an ever-changing group of services. It also includes the Kent Coast services.
I well recall the first pair being introduced, and travelling north on the 1105(?) from East Croydon early on (at least to Kenny, perhaps to Reading).

 

[nw1]

PS Manchester-Stafford-Birmingham is at best 1 minute faster via Crewe than via Stoke, I think I pointed to my analysis in another thread earlier in this one.
(EDIT No, different thread, but see #134 )

1993 Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool if it's of any interest (from Manchester/Liverpool area CE WTT 17/5/93 to 3/10/93)

UP (all via Stoke from Manchester)
1O06 06:18 Manchester-Bournemouth HST
1O99 06:53 Liverpool-Dover D245 SO 24/7 to 28/8
1O66 07:18 Manchester-Brighton D245 (Eastbourne SO)
1G98 07:45 Liverpool-International E245 (1V40 Paignton SO)
1O09 08:18 Manchester-Bournemouth HST
1G97 08:40 Liverpool-Birmingham E245
1V46 09:18 Manchester-Plymouth E245 (Paignton SO)
1O11 10:15 Liverpool-Weymouth D245 SO
1G55 10:18 Manchester-Birmingham E245 (1V47 Penzance HST SO)
1G56 11:18 Manchester-Birmingham E245 (E385 SO I think implies using one of the Birmingham-Euston sets)
1V96 12:18 Manchester-Reading D245 (Paddington SO)
1G58 13:18 Manchester-International E245
1G59 14:18 Manchester-International E245
1O14 15:18 Manchester-Poole D245
1O18 16:08 Liverpool-Poole D245 (1V98 Paddington SO)
1M98 12:40 Glasgow-Birmingham D245 SX (16:18 from Manchester Piccadilly p13)
1V97 17:18 Manchester-Paddington E245 (1G62 Birmingham SO)
1G63 18:00 Manchester-Birmingham E245
1G16 18:18 Liverpool-Birmingham E245
1G65 19:00 Manchester-Birmingham E245 (Q not advertised)

Again interesting - looks very like the early Virgin pattern, or something similar to it, had been established by 1993 with xx18 departures from Manchester, was xx17 later as mentioned up-thread. Also in early Virgin days I think the majority of Manchester services continued to terminate at Birmingham - either New Street or International. Would be interesting to know when this long-standing pattern was introduced; it was definitely later than 1986.

Of these, I think I remember using the 1718 Manchester-Paddington, or something very similar, in November 1996. Was definitely 86 to Birmingham, 47 beyond. I think the 86 was 86214 Sans Pareil, a strange coincidence as I had the same haulage between Wolverhampton and New Street in November 1984 on the down Sunday Wessex Scot. The 47 was Porterbrook-liveried, 47810 I think.

Also there is the ever-present, in some form, afternoon Liverpool-Poole. Notable how few Southbound Liverpools there are, again - and notable also that there's only one south-west service, the 0918 to Plymouth.

 

[Grecian 1998]

Certainly seems that Virgin carried on with many of the traditional offerings until Operation Princess which was a whole brave new world.

Famously Virgin used a Deltic for a scheduled Birmingham - Ramsgate return service in 1998 and 1999. The enthusiast to normal passenger ratio on those services must have been pretty high.


I think Virgin quickly decided they wanted all the big changes made at once with Operation Princess. Until then it was a case of keeping everything ticking over as before.

That SO Weymouth to Manchester via Liverpool is an unusual one!

From what I recall growing up in Dorset, virtually all summer Saturday Weymouth trains were to or from Liverpool or Manchester. Clearly someone must have decided it was easier to cater for both markets together. Wonder how many people did the whole journey rather than change at Crewe (presumably) for Manchester?