The future of Leeds guided bus way

[Bayum]

Leeds introduced its guided bus way in the early 90's and 2000's along with a refurbishment/new fleet of buses to include the guided bus wheel. From what I understand, new buses aren’t necessarily ordered or delivered with these guided bus wheels any more. The fleet that leads uses will surely start to get smaller and smaller until we are at a point where there will be no buses able to use the guided bus way.Does anyone know what the plans are for these areas in the future? I know they were once earmarked for a tram system in Leeds but the less of that said the better.

 

[bluenoxid]

I think there are two corridors in Leeds and one in Bradford?

York Road (plus Selby Road)
Scott Hall Road A61
Manchester Road (Bradford)

The buses for the 7 series up the A61 are (were) Euro 5 buses and are around 9 years old

The Connecting Leeds proposals for the A61N shared in 2018 did propose removing the guided busway sections and replacing with standard bus lanes but that was thrown out in early 2019.

Leeds is working on plans for mass transit. The general population is banging the drum on trams but LCC are also very aware that they cannot afford any further failure. The confirmed routings and delivery of HS2 and a high speed Transpennine line will influence the options available to planners. I have a feeling that some routings could be consolidated into Leeds station enabling certain routes to be freed up. The current plans could utilise Calder Valley or the Wakefield line.

Personally, I think that there is a reasonable chance of the A61 ones being removed and replaced with bus lanes especially if the new P&R goes in opposite Leeds Grammar School. The other two I am not so sure of. Considering that there are other guided busways in this country, I am surprised that bus manufacturers are not preparing to facilitate these in the model options

 

[Llandudno]

Do guided busways offer value for money?

How successful is the one between Leigh and Manchester in the opinion of:
A: Customers
B: Politicians
C: Commercial operators providing competing services nearby but not using the busway

 

[markymark2000]

Having spoken to Leeds City Council about it a few months back, they said their plans are to explore options with putting the bus lanes next to the kerb again rather than keeping the in the middle guided busways.

Below quote is from a reply to an email which I sent.

As part of the Connecting Leeds scheme a review of guided bus ways in Leeds District are being reviewed, in particular on Scott Hall Road. Bus operators have been consulted on removing the guided bus way and siting the bus lane either side of the main carriageway. This plan would assist bus operators who currently do not use the guideway due to their vehicles not being set up with the small guide wheels. It is expected that further consultation with other interested parties will take place during 2020 to gauge feedback.

My suggestion for them would be to rip up the 'guided' and make the centre into just a normal tarmac road so basically a BRT style scheme for all operators to use. I think the kerbside bus lanes are not as good since they are cut back constantly for people turning left and generally I would say buses are held up more at traffic lights. I feel like the middle of the road BRT means faster journeys for passengers. There are downsides to passengers of course who have to instead have to get into the middle of the road but on wide roads like York Road, you are always crossing into the middle rather than one way (to town or home) having to cross over the whole road in one go.

 

[tbtc]

From what I understand, new buses aren’t necessarily ordered or delivered with these guided bus wheels any more. The fleet that leads uses will surely start to get smaller and smaller until we are at a point where there will be no buses able to use the guided bus way

My understanding was that the guided "wheels" are removable and can be attached to other vehicles fairly easily (?) - it's just that most of the recent investment in Leeds has been on the Headingley corridor, the cross-city 49/50 and the two P&R services, so the most recent deliveries of vehicles haven't required guide wheels to be fitted.

If my understanding is correct then I guess First will have sufficient "wheels" to maintain the PVR of the two busway corridors with compliant vehicles and it only becomes an issue when the vehicles on those routes get replaced (last time I paid attention it was "hybrid" Geminis on the Scott Hall Road routes, but I'm no au fait with recent developments - they may well have been moved off since then)

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Scott Hall Road bus lane was never as successful as the Selby/York Road bus lane. I can see the former getting ripped up when expensive repairs become needed to the infrastructure.

The guidewheels are not difficult or expensive to fit IIRC.

How successful is the one between Leigh and Manchester

It is incredibly successful, as is the Cambridge busway. The Dunstable one, less so.

 

[grangergranger]

The A64 York road Guided Busway I feel is highly underused.
4/14 bus routes even use the Busway.

It's a weird situation, Bus companies are reluctant to acquire guided wheels due to expenses, but it's even more expensive for the council to scrap the guided Busway.

 

[Bayum]

The A64 York road Guided Busway I feel is highly underused.
4/14 bus routes even use the Busway.

It's a weird situation, Bus companies are reluctant to acquire guided wheels due to expenses, but it's even more expensive for the council to scrap the guided Busway.

It used to be used quite well. I don't think I've seen a bus using the guided busway for a long time. I could be mistaken and there must be some that have run as that's where the bus stops are, but they are exceedingly few and far between.

 

[Andyh82]

I'm not aware of any change in the number of services using the guideway in recent years, and First Leeds still have sufficient buses to operate the service.

Services 7, 7A, 7S & X7 use the Scott Hall Road guideway with the hybrids

Services 19, 19A, 40 & 56 still use the York Road guideway with B7TL/B9TL gemini's of various ages

Some of these fleets have started to be repainted into the green LeedsCity livery so they are obviously being kept

Basically would they be built now, probably not, is it justifiable to spend millions replacing them with standard bus lanes, also probably not, hence why the idea was thrown out in the recent Connecting Leeds consultation

 

[Boo_]

I have never got it with having to have guideways? what's up with having a bus gates or cctv system to fine and just install a cheaper standard bus lane or bus only road. issue with them also is coaches can`t use them on local job like school runs and it means you're giving a monopoly to companies who have the kit and willing to pay for it.

 

[markymark2000]

I have never got it with having to have guideways? what's up with having a bus gates or cctv system to fine and just install a cheaper standard bus lane or bus only road. issue with them also is coaches can`t use them on local job like school runs and it means you're giving a monopoly to companies who have the kit and willing to pay for it.

Don't buses tend to go faster on guided busways without the risk. If you made Cambridge a proper busway for example, having buses going 50-60mph opposite eachother, you are risking a nasty accident (guided busway accidents happen but it's rare and very rarely and even more rarely do any buses hit eachother on a busway, it's normally a derailment). It requires a lot of concentration driving at such high speeds for a long period of time as well. It's also much better for wheelchairs etc since the bus always stops the right distance from the kerb for ramps and kneeling. Don't the concrete guideways need less maintenance as well? Guided busways are probably easier to convert to tram lines than normal busways.

The cons for guided busways are buses can't 'go around' a broken down vehicle or small roadworks, you are liable to potholes, risk punctuality since there is no chance for overtakings, very limited usage as only operators who can be bothered with guidewheels use the guideways and others stick to the main road meaning duplicate bus stops and passenger confusion. Cars get stuck in the traps meaning bus services get delayed easier. Constant slowing down and speeding up when there is a split in the tracks as high speed entering the guideway isn't a good combination (makes for bad passenger comfort over staying a consistent speed).


For me, Runcorn has the best busway operationally. Buses glide through Runcorn at a decent speed, great bus priority and links up all the areas. (not very pleasant for users though but that's a different topic).

 

[edwin_m]

Don't buses tend to go faster on guided busways without the risk. If you made Cambridge a proper busway for example, having buses going 50-60mph opposite eachother, you are risking a nasty accident (guided busway accidents happen but it's rare and very rarely and even more rarely do any buses hit eachother on a busway, it's normally a derailment) . to happen and it requires a lot of concentration. It's also much better for wheelchairs etc since the bus always stops the right distance from the kerb for ramps and kneeling. Don't the concrete guideways need less maintenance as well?

Agreed.

Guided busways are probably easier to convert to tram lines than normal busways.

Not so. Trams are normally a bit wider than buses, and the kerbs either side of the busway are likely to foul the body of the tram. Might work with a narrower tram like the ones in Nottingham.

Constant slowing down and speeding up when there is a split in the tracks as high speed entering the guideway isn't a good combination (makes for bad passenger comfort over staying a consistent speed).

Also a gap is needed in the guideway at every pedestrian or road crossing.

 

[markymark2000]

Not so. Trams are normally a bit wider than buses, and the kerbs either side of the busway are likely to foul the body of the tram. Might work with a narrower tram like the ones in Nottingham.

Oh, some work would be needed, I fully agree but it's easier to convert than a busway as the concrete almost creates a bed ready for the tram tracks. Station works would be needed but if you compare the cost of a brand new tram line to a conversion of a guided busway to a tram line, I can see there being a decent difference in cost even if station works are needed so the tram can pass, it's less work than building a new station outright.

 

[Statto]

Do guided busways offer value for money?

How successful is the one between Leigh and Manchester in the opinion of:
A: Customers
B: Politicians
C: Commercial operators providing competing services nearby but not using the busway

Before the virus hit, the Leigh guided busway seems popular in terms of passengers, as when i went through Leigh, the V1[V1 is Leigh-Manchester via the guided busway] stand at the bus station was always busy with people waiting to board the V1, also the Leigh guided busway services is the quickest way to get to from Leigh to Manchester if you don't have a car.

 

[pdeaves]

I personally would favour wire-guided rather than concrete kerbs. That way, the route could also be used (maybe at reduced speed) by emergency services (and it could well be easier to pass a failure, too).

 

[markymark2000]

I personally would favour wire-guided rather than concrete kerbs. That way, the route could also be used (maybe at reduced speed) by emergency services (and it could well be easier to pass a failure, too).

Wire guided?

 

[radamfi]

Don't buses tend to go faster on guided busways without the risk. If you made Cambridge a proper busway for example, having buses going 50-60mph opposite eachother, you are risking a nasty accident (guided busway accidents happen but it's rare and very rarely and even more rarely do any buses hit eachother on a busway, it's normally a derailment). It requires a lot of concentration driving at such high speeds for a long period of time as well. It's also much better for wheelchairs etc since the bus always stops the right distance from the kerb for ramps and kneeling. Don't the concrete guideways need less maintenance as well? Guided busways are probably easier to convert to tram lines than normal busways.

The cons for guided busways are buses can't 'go around' a broken down vehicle or small roadworks, you are liable to potholes, risk punctuality since there is no chance for overtakings, very limited usage as only operators who can be bothered with guidewheels use the guideways and others stick to the main road meaning duplicate bus stops and passenger confusion. Cars get stuck in the traps meaning bus services get delayed easier. Constant slowing down and speeding up when there is a split in the tracks as high speed entering the guideway isn't a good combination (makes for bad passenger comfort over staying a consistent speed).


For me, Runcorn has the best busway operationally. Buses glide through Runcorn at a decent speed, great bus priority and links up all the areas. (not very pleasant for users though but that's a different topic).

It doesn't take much research on the internet to see that the vast majority of BRT systems are non-guided. I presume you had heard that South America (in particular) is famous for them? You can easily see that the ones in Brazil, Columbia, Indonesia etc. carry huge numbers of passengers without guidance. Guidance seems to be a niche mostly in Britain and Australia. Even Essen in Germany has got rid of most of them. I suppose the rubber-tyred "trams" in Paris and suburbs are strictly speaking guided trolleybuses.

 

[markymark2000]

It doesn't take much research on the internet to see that the vast majority of BRT systems are non-guided. I presume you had heard that South America (in particular) is famous for them? You can easily see that the ones in Brazil, Columbia, Indonesia etc. carry huge numbers of passengers without guidance. Guidance seems to be a niche mostly in Britain and Australia. Even Essen in Germany has got rid of most of them. I suppose the rubber-tyred "trams" in Paris and suburbs are strictly speaking guided trolleybuses.

I have seen and I agree. Non guided is better overall in my opinion but some areas prefer guided for some reason. The post was made as a summary of both pros and cons.

With your location being Crawley, I'm sure you can see firsthand some of the issues as the small sections of guided busway mean that the bus network is hindered and has to work around the availability of guided busway all for some small, generally unconnected sections of busway.

 

[leedslad82]

Did i read somewhere that the york road guideways are limited to 25mph where as the main carriageway is a 40 mph road so when no traffic its faster in carriageway

 

[radamfi]

I have seen and I agree. Non guided is better overall in my opinion but some areas prefer guided for some reason. The post was made as a summary of both pros and cons.

With your location being Crawley, I'm sure you can see firsthand some of the issues as the small sections of guided busway mean that the bus network is hindered and has to work around the availability of guided busway all for some small, generally unconnected sections of busway.

Yep, it is annoying that some routes have to use the normal road because not all buses are guided. I suppose at the time there was a worry about enforcement, which supports guidance, but cameras can be used instead nowadays.

 

[bluenoxid]

Wire guided?

Charged cable creates a magnetic field that the system driving the vehicle follows. Not very successful compared to optical guided systems and magnetic systems. Used in the service tunnel for the Channel Tunnel AFAIK

 

[edwin_m]

Charged cable creates a magnetic field that the system driving the vehicle follows. Not very successful compared to optical guided systems and magnetic systems. Used in the service tunnel for the Channel Tunnel AFAIK

It was installed for a route serving the Dome in 2000 but I don't think it ever went into service. One problem is that it doesn't provide physical guidance in conditions such as icy roads. Also I'm not sure what happens if the guidance wires lose power.

 

[markymark2000]

Charged cable creates a magnetic field that the system driving the vehicle follows. Not very successful compared to optical guided systems and magnetic systems. Used in the service tunnel for the Channel Tunnel AFAIK

Never, ever heard or seen that one before.

 

[edwin_m]

Never, ever heard or seen that one before.

It was trialled on Newcastle Quayside about 1996, and was going to be used for the shuttle up to the city centre (that had those strange New Zealand buses). As with the Dome route I mentioned earlier, I think when there were some problems they probably just decided if the bus was driving on a normal road there wasn't much point in having guidance.

And where guidance was needed, it would be on right of way too narrow for unguided vehicles to pass each other, as on the former railways at Cambridgeshire and Dunstable. But I'm not sure people would have been comfortable with passing another vehicle at a closing speed of near 100mph at a spacing of a few inches with no visible guidance.

 

[Meerkat]

Can guided and non-guided busways have higher speed limits than adjacent traffic lanes?

 

[CBlue]

Most of the Busway in Cambridgeshire is 60mph including stretches through built up areas. I believe some of the Southern half is now 40mph due to the number of gaps in the guideway for foot crossings or junctions.

 

[gingerheid]

Do guided busways offer value for money?

How successful is the one between Leigh and Manchester in the opinion of:
A: Customers
B: Politicians
C: Commercial operators providing competing services nearby but not using the busway

From the experience of Cambridge (until Covid) the answers are:

a) Very
b) Varies, but overall not very
c) Deadly

Unfortunately in Cambridge there was an important question d that also needs to be answered:

D: How successful is the guided busway in terms of gobby know it alls that have clearly never been near a bus in their life?

d: It has been a complete disaster and [insert random references to empty buses (despite capacity problems at rush hour) and some random conspiracy theory about Stagecoach being bribed to double the number of buses as part of some cover up plot]

 

[CyrusWuff]

It was installed for a route serving the Dome in 2000 but I don't think it ever went into service. One problem is that it doesn't provide physical guidance in conditions such as icy roads. Also I'm not sure what happens if the guidance wires lose power.

I suspect it's an urban myth, but it's alleged that part of the reason behind the Millennium Busway not being used for its intended purpose was that one of the sponsors of the Dome was Tesco and said Busway went right past a branch of Sainsbury's!

Incidentally, said eco-friendly Sainsbury's has been replaced with a branch of Ikea, with a new Sainsbury's opening further along Bugsby's Way, between Asda and Makro, though the petrol station remains at the original site.

 

[edwin_m]

Can guided and non-guided busways have higher speed limits than adjacent traffic lanes?

I guess the same rule would apply as to tramways - OK as long as there are signs to inform general traffic that a higher limit applies to the buses (trams) - otherwise they might assume if they were driving at the same speed as one they were legal. Having said that I can't think of anywhere that rule has been applied!

 

[Meerkat]

I guess the same rule would apply as to tramways - OK as long as there are signs to inform general traffic that a higher limit applies to the buses (trams) - otherwise they might assume if they were driving at the same speed as one they were legal. Having said that I can't think of anywhere that rule has been applied!

I can see that signage would be tricky, but making the buses faster than cars is utterly fundamental to successfully getting people onto public transport.