The Great British (Rail) upcycling experiment.

[507021]

Other than slow doors (which are annoying, but it just needs them to change the timetable to suit), the main issue with the WMT units has been engines shutting down due to overheating. The batteries fitted to the TfW units may well help mask this if it is similarly an issue, as if an engine shuts down it won't cause immediate power loss.

I've always thought the decision to use Ford Transit engines was a very peculiar one. Surely there's a more suitable and reliable option out there?

Fair enough, I suppose is based on what I’ve read rather than the full picture, which is why I said it seems less reliable, which is based on perception not facts.

Don't worry about it, I've done it myself in the past.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've always thought the decision to use Ford Transit engines was a very peculiar one. Surely there's a more suitable and reliable option out there?

Most of the design is built down to a price to keep it cheaper than a new-build unit. But I believe they have now switched their contract to CAT engines which have a bit more industrial pedigree. I don't know if that was done in time for the TfW units, though.

 

[507021]

Most of the design is built down to a price to keep it cheaper than a new-build unit. But I believe they have now switched their contract to CAT engines which have a bit more industrial pedigree. I don't know if that was done in time for the TfW units, though.

That's good to hear, hopefully it'll improve the reliability of any future 230 conversions.

 

[david1212]

I've always thought the decision to use Ford Transit engines was a very peculiar one. Surely there's a more suitable and reliable option out there?

Likewise. While the Duratorq is rated at 150kW even the heaviest footed white van man etc could not constantly draw this unlike rail with the timetable requiring at least close to full power away from every station up to 50+mph.

Most of the design is built down to a price to keep it cheaper than a new-build unit. But I believe they have now switched their contract to CAT engines which have a bit more industrial pedigree. I don't know if that was done in time for the TfW units, though.

Given how long ago the TfW units were designed I'll be surprised and quickly can't find any reference to this.

While the engine is a quick-change module I wonder if a CAT version could be drop-in compatible ?


Generally in theory many of the ideas are sound. The problems for various reasons are the real world implementation.

When proposed the class 319 > 769 seemed straightforward. Even adding sliding doors to the FGW and Scotrail mini-HST's took significantly longer. Here one factor seemed to be not closely inspecting a large enough sample of the MK3's from different batches for consistancy / variations and corrosion to avoid surprises.

 

[Rail Blues]

One factor seemed to be not closely inspecting a large enough sample of the MK3's from different batches for consistancy / variations and corrosion to avoid surprises.

It seems to be a remarkable oversight, the mk3s were built on the 70s to very slack tolerances by modern standards, that was known ahead of time. Nor was it the first time power door conversions on a MK3 has been attempted, albeit of a different type.


It was known where the coaches for the MK3 conversion project were coming from and what kind of weather conditions they were operating in. If you were in any doubt just stand on a footbridge and see how heavily patched the roof is on any GWR mk3.

I still think HST upcycling for the Inter7cities was flawed, but the project management was also appalling and th failure to do their homework inexcusable.

 

[DarloRich]

Deep cleansing breath. Calm, calm, breathe, No good. Kenny, get me zantax....................

Class 230 - The WMT units have had their issues,

Issues is one word for it. They have been utter dog turd. I am sure that on the third rail they will be fine as they don't have the main problem area to deal with: The diesel.

it is SO frustrating. A fantastic opportunity to boost passenger numbers lost. The uselessness of the service has driven passengers, me included away. It become so unreliable that the only way to get to work on time was to drive.

They have been so bad we long (LONG) for the 153 back. Even the one that smells of wee. I would even take a couple of pacers.

That's good to hear, hopefully it'll improve the reliability of any future 230 conversions.

I would really like Vivarail and LNWR to focus on making my train work so that the timetable becomes promise not a suggestion as to the earliest point in time a train MAY arrive. Lets hope that during best part of a years down time they have had has improved things. I remain to be convinced.

While the engine is a quick-change module I wonder if a CAT version could be drop-in compatible ?

I will take any engine as long as it work and the train service runs!

I still think HST upcycling for the Inter7cities was flawed,

Not sure: my mum ( gauge for normal person) loves them as they are comfortable and she can work. Found the "bus trains" horrible and far too cramped.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would really like Vivarail and LNWR to focus on making my train work so that the timetable becomes promise not a suggestion as to the earliest point in time a train MAY arrive. Lets hope that during best part of a years down time they have had has improved things. I remain to be convinced.

They are still losing time against Sprinter timings, and it all adds up. Yesterday's service, for example:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Woburn Sands all day on 21/04/2021

Train information at Woburn Sands all day on 21/04/2021. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The odd minute here, the odd minute there, and it all adds up. It is not a difficult service to operate, but these units are not an improvement, sadly.

 

[DarloRich]

They are still losing time against Sprinter timings, and it all adds up. Yesterday's service, for example:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Woburn Sands all day on 21/04/2021

Train information at Woburn Sands all day on 21/04/2021. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The odd minute here, the odd minute there, and it all adds up. It is not a difficult service to operate, but these units are not an improvement, sadly.

that is something else. The doors were only a minute or two over the journey.

 

[507021]

Issues is one word for it. They have been utter dog turd. I am sure that on the third rail they will be fine as they don't have the main problem area to deal with: The diesel.

it is SO frustrating. A fantastic opportunity to boost passenger numbers lost. The uselessness of the service has driven passengers, me included away. It become so unreliable that the only way to get to work on time was to drive.

They have been so bad we long (LONG) for the 153 back. Even the one that smells of wee. I would even take a couple of pacers.

Blimey. I thought they were bad but I didn't realise they were that bad.

I'll do you a deal, you can have some of our 150/1s if we can have your 319/2s for Flex conversion. ROG can have the /0s and /4s.

I would really like Vivarail and LNWR to focus on making my train work so that the timetable becomes promise not a suggestion as to the earliest point in time a train MAY arrive. Lets hope that during best part of a years down time they have had has improved things. I remain to be convinced.

I think there's a lot of us who want the manufacturers to fix the issues with our new/"new" trains!

 

[DarloRich]

Blimey. I thought they were bad but I didn't realise they were that bad.

I'll do you a deal, you can have some of our 150/1s if we can have your 319/2s for Flex conversion. ROG can have the /0s and /4s.

It has been REALLY bad. I have used the line every day for 10 years ( pre pandemic) and the use of the 230's has been the worst it has been during that period. We have had a dodgy service at times but never over such a long period. Honestly, people want the 153 back. The celebrations when those things went look perverse now. At least they were reliable.

I know we got to be the guinea pig for a new concept ( and there weren't many other options) but the inability/unwillingness to address the issues has been embarrassing. It wouldn't have stood in most other places but we are a rural branch line with low passenger numbers and no influential person to bash heads so no one seems to care enough to fix it. (I dread to think what the LNWR/Vivarail relationship is like after all this)

The most frustrating thing has been the lost opportunity. The 230's are really good inside: light, roomy, decent enough seats, full disabled toilet, plugs, wifi, nice local themed artwork, a PA that works, visual displays. Passenger comfort wise they are a massive step up in quality. They just do not work often enough for long enough! People wont take the risk if they have a choice. Our stations are not great places to be left waiting especially in bad weather.

I will snap your arm off for a couple of 150's. I would have settled for your pacers so 150's are like a Rolls Royce!

PS the 230's also need air con but that is a different complaint!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The most frustrating thing has been the lost opportunity. The 230's are really good inside: light, roomy, decent enough seats, full disabled toilet, plugs, wifi, nice local themed artwork, a PA that works, visual displays. Passenger comfort wise they are a massive step up in quality. They just do not work often enough for long enough! People wont take the risk if they have a choice. Our stations are not great places to be left waiting especially in bad weather.

To me they feel like a Stadler FLIRT on the cheap, probably because of the irregular window and seating layout and the bog in the middle of the vehicle.

 

[507021]

It has been REALLY bad. I have used the line every day for 10 years ( pre pandemic) and the use of the 230's has been the worst it has been during that period. We have had a dodgy service at times but never over such a long period. Honestly, people want the 153 back. The celebrations when those things went look perverse now. At least they were reliable.

I know we got to be the guinea pig for a new concept ( and there weren't many other options) but the inability/unwillingness to address the issues has been embarrassing. It wouldn't have stood in most other places but we are a rural branch line with low passenger numbers and no influential person to bash heads so no one seems to care enough to fix it. (I dread to think what the LNWR/Vivarail relationship is like after all this)

The most frustrating thing has been the lost opportunity. The 230's are really good inside: light, roomy, decent enough seats, full disabled toilet, plugs, wifi, nice local themed artwork, a PA that works, visual displays. Passenger comfort wise they are a massive step up in quality. They just do not work often enough for long enough! People wont take the risk if they have a choice. Our stations are not great places to be left waiting especially in bad weather.

I will snap your arm off for a couple of 150's. I would have settled for your pacers so 150's are like a Rolls Royce!

PS the 230's also need air con but that is a different complaint!

Although I haven't been on a 230 yet, I've always thought the interior design looks really well thought out. It's a shame their reliability lets it down.

With any luck, the inadequate Transit engines will get swapped for Caterpillar units as soon as possible. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall in the Vivarail board meeting where they decided using van engines in a heavy rail application was a good idea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although I haven't been on a 230 yet, I've always thought the interior design looks really well thought out.

Yes, above the solebar (excluding the slow doors) they are pretty good. Only thing I'd really change is to replace the daylight white lighting with a warmer colour, as it's quite unpleasant, but that's minor.

Problem is that they don't work.

 

[ChilternTurbo]

Sorry, but I can't agree about the Anglia Mk3s being a "nice ride up to the end" - even in the National Express days they were getting worn out and by the time GA had replacements lined up they were woeful in just about every way. Knackered old seats, squeaking from that infernal gangway and a severely outdated design whichever way you looked at it. The Stadlers are space-age by comparison.

I agree completely. I'm fond of Mk.3 stock, they're part of my childhood and I think should be regarded as a design classic of the British Rail era. However, as a member of the travelling public I thought the Greater Anglia ones pretty dreadful by the end of their tenure on Norwich services, much worse than the HST Mk.3s.
I'm able to claim for first class travel if I am required to work on a journey. My last journey from London to Norwich and back was incredibly uncomfortable being sat miles from the table whilst trying to work on a laptop. That combined with the cacophony of squeaks and wheezes coming from the vestibule and the IC70 seats which don't suit my lanky frame meant I was glad to reach journeys end. When I next go to Norwich, I look forward to going on a Stadler, a product of the 2020s not the 1970s.

 

[AverageTD]

I haven't yet been on any of the upcycled stock but from what I hear they're not exactly all the rage. I'm generally a fan of the D-Train design but using something like a 319 (something which I've never been a fan, of... ever) as a replacement is just a retrograde. I dread to think that GWR may keep theirs any longer than 5 years. Most Mk3 based and PEP rolling stock are very much at the end of their time in passenger service and I dread to think that they'd be kept any longer for anything more than a few year stop-gap.

Where I feel there may be a market is with off-lease trains that are still young and have nowhere to go. Such as the 350/2s, 379s and maybe some Networkers. How difficult or expensive it would be to change this specific stock compared to older units I have no clue. But I think it would be worth it instead of marketing 769s as new and exciting trains and force them to keep going for another 20 years while other parts of the country are getting new stock with 4x the performance of the upcycled stuff.

 

[Mex I can]

With any luck, the inadequate Transit engines will get swapped for Caterpillar units as soon as possible. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall in the Vivarail board meeting where they decided using van engines in a heavy rail application was a good idea.

*Pedant alert*

That engine is actually more popular in the Ford Ranger pickup truck.

I think the main problem is the lack of thought that went into cooling, rather than the origin of the power unit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

*Pedant alert*

That engine is actually more popular in the Ford Ranger pickup truck.

I think the main problem is the lack of thought that went into cooling, rather than the origin of the power unit.

Yes, the issue is overheating.

 

[Mex I can]

*Sad b****** alert.
There's a lot of engine snobbery about. I work on a lot of different kinds of mechanical handling equipment, my own employer sells forklift trucks which have a DOHC Mitsubishi "Evo" engine fitted. The world market leader (Toyota) fits an aging model of overhead valve engine to their truck, yet their truck is more reliable and far more popular than ours.

That said, I can't think of a manufacturer that fits a Ford engine to a forklift truck.

 

[507021]

*Sad b****** alert.
There's a lot of engine snobbery about. I work on a lot of different kinds of mechanical handling equipment, my own employer sells forklift trucks which have a DOHC Mitsubishi "Evo" engine fitted. The world market leader (Toyota) fits an aging model of overhead valve engine to their truck, yet their truck is more reliable and far more popular than ours.

That said, I can't think of a manufacturer that fits a Ford engine to a forklift truck.

You're talking to someone who swapped a BMW 5 Series for a Rover 75, no engine snobbery from me!