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The impact of the new EMR timetable on journeys from Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough to London

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g22

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You’ll get plenty from me!

Fitting in quick London services to the prime regional cities (Derby, Nottingham, Sheffield), speeding up the slower Nottingham service, adding in extra services to Corby, providing decent connections between the Nottinghams and Corbys in both directions, flighting them all through fixed Thameslink paths south of Harpenden, and the other big constraint at Sheffield, plus shifting all the local / regional EMR services in the Derby / Nottingham area to fit..... that must have been quite a challenge.

For sure you can’t please everybody, but there will be many more net gains than net losses from this.
Fitting in quick London services to the prime regional cities (Sheffield, Nottingham, Derby, Leicester)...

This is also a very good service for Leicester, fast peak trains to London in the early morning, later trains to London at night and faster trains from London at night and a good spread of departures and many earlier morning services to Sheffield and Nottingham.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-class-360s.205226

The biggest loser in this is Wellingborough. We will loose a frequent peak time service to a half hourly one, northbound services - unless one wants to visit Corby, service in First Class and comfortable inter city trains. We will get a slower service having to endure a stops at both Lutons, unrefurbished stock - with no date of it happening, still at inter city fares. In some ways, even as an advocate of electrification I wish it hadn’t happened.

Living outside of Wellingborough it will be quicker for me to drive to Leicester and much cheaper to drive to Bedford and catch a train to London from there.

When the 360s are refurbished the Standard travelling experience will be much, much nicer than 222s (don't know about 1st, but I equally don't know why I'd bother with 1st for a journey that short). Desiros are very, very good kit. We like ours! :)
 

Bald Rick

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Fitting in quick London services to the prime regional cities (Sheffield, Nottingham, Derby, Leicester)...

This is also a very good service for Leicester, fast peak trains to London in the early morning, later trains to London at night and faster trains from London at night and a good spread of departures and many earlier morning services to Sheffield and Nottingham.

Did I miss Leicester? I didn’t notice... <D
 

Kite159

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We can establish there are no losers but the winners of the May 2021 timetable will be:
Corby
Kettering
Bedford
Luton
Luton Airport Parkway
Wellingbrough will not gain nor lose neither will stations north of Kettering/Corby

Market Harborough maybe also a winner as well. Where it loses it's hourly non-stop service it gains another service which calls at Kettering (then non-stop to London)
 

Merle Haggard

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The new service from Wellingborough to St. Pancras will be every half hour from start of the day to end. No longer will there be any additional services calling in the morning or evening peaks to cater for commuters.

An operations-led timetable obviously makes more efficient use of resources and is easier to plan, and I appreciate that there will be more seats indeed, (lots more before the 360s are modified) but this seems to have the obvious downside that a single cancellation, or non-stop due to late running, will mean a gap of one hour between trains. Is this not below the usual level of resilience for London commuting services elsewhere?
 

Llandudno

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The new service from Wellingborough to St. Pancras will be every half hour from start of the day to end. No longer will there be any additional services calling in the morning or evening peaks to cater for commuters.

An operations-led timetable obviously makes more efficient use of resources and is easier to plan, and I appreciate that there will be more seats indeed, (lots more before the 360s are modified) but this seems to have the obvious downside that a single cancellation, or non-stop due to late running, will mean a gap of one hour between trains. Is this not below the usual level of resilience for London commuting services elsewhere?
At least Wellingborough still has frequent trains to London, meanwhile Alfreton and Langley Mill have lost all their through trains to/from London...
 

Merle Haggard

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At least Wellingborough still has frequent trains to London, meanwhile Alfreton and Langley Mill have lost all their through trains to/from London...

I hadn't noticed that, the final decline of what was opened as Alfreton and Mansfield Parkway. I once picked up an enthusiast friend from York there - thought he was on a Cross Country HST, but can't be sure. If so, from zero to 2 Inter City TOCs and now back to zero

There's a definite move to an operations led railway - anything a bit niche is soooo difficult, regardless of demand.
 

HamworthyGoods

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No, it was dropped to make the timetable work, when the East Coast pattern increased from 4tph to 5tph.

Not quite true as the current timetable structure actually allows the xx00 from King’s Cross to call without timetable penalty as happens on SX with the 07.00, 09.00 and 13.00 departures provided there were in ‘225’ timings, HSTs couldn’t match the schedules now it’s all Azuma’s it wouldn’t be a problem. The xx00 generally has considerable pathing time on the approach to York.
 

Ianno87

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Not quite true as the current timetable structure actually allows the xx00 from King’s Cross to call without timetable penalty as happens on SX with the 07.00, 09.00 and 13.00 departures provided there were in ‘225’ timings, HSTs couldn’t match the schedules now it’s all Azuma’s it wouldn’t be a problem.

Not the case in the Up direction, where (as far as I can tell), all the standard hour paths are all non-stop until the 1630 off Edinburgh, which calls Stevenage (late in the day at 2030)

Timetables need to work in both directions, not just one.

The xx00 generally has considerable pathing time on the approach to York.

Typically about 2 minutes (give or take), plus 1 minute Engineering Allowance approaching Colton Jn. Debatable whether or not that is "considerable".
 

clagmonster

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An operations-led timetable obviously makes more efficient use of resources and is easier to plan, and I appreciate that there will be more seats indeed, (lots more before the 360s are modified) but this seems to have the obvious downside that a single cancellation, or non-stop due to late running, will mean a gap of one hour between trains. Is this not below the usual level of resilience for London commuting services elsewhere?
I would imagine in the event of a peak Corby being caped, there would be appropriate special stop orders in an Intercity service.
 

Merle Haggard

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I would imagine in the event of a peak Corby being caped, there would be appropriate special stop orders in an Intercity service.

Special stops to compensate for cancellations was done in B.R. days, but it ended on the M.M.L. (and elsewhere) at privatisation, partly due to the behaviour that the chosen KPIs encourage.

In the early 2000s, when travelling from Wellingborough to St Pancras for leisure at immediate post-peak times I have endured the cancellation of trains - the most extreme, 3 successive ones - and no attempt was made to provide an alternative as we watched expresses saunter through the station obeying the PSR. As well as true cancellations, there were also trains shown as ';cancelled' but did run although, to recover delay, didn't call, and from those experiences it seems likely that delayed Corby-St Pancras services will similarly run non-stop to avoid delay to their next working.

But I, too, would like to imagine that there will be an interest in the needs of customers, and I'm prepared to be surprised!
 

Ianno87

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I would imagine in the event of a peak Corby being caped, there would be appropriate special stop orders in an Intercity service.

Looks like the timetable is designed with decent turnround times at terminals etc, so should not need to be much reliance on using skip-stopping etc to recover the timetable in the first place (GTR adopted such practices very effectively in May 2018).
 

Bald Rick

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Special stops to compensate for cancellations was done in B.R. days, but it ended on the M.M.L. (and elsewhere) at privatisation, partly due to the behaviour that the chosen KPIs encourage.

Well it’s deployed elsewhere, regularly, across the network now. And I know it is done by EMR.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well it’s deployed elsewhere, regularly, across the network now. And I know it is done by EMR.

What I do find is that a local service would get a stop order at any local station, but ICs only ever get stop orders at stations that are normally served by ICs even if the platform is long enough*. Or is that different on EMR?

* Very extreme examples excepted, such as when the line was closed at Bletchley after a derailment, a couple of stranded Pendolinos operated a Tring stopping service.
 

Bald Rick

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What I do find is that a local service would get a stop order at any local station, but ICs only ever get stop orders at stations that are normally served by ICs even if the platform is long enough*. Or is that different on EMR?

* Very extreme examples excepted, such as when the line was closed at Bletchley after a derailment, a couple of stranded Pendolinos operated a Tring stopping service.

Depends on what is allowed to stop where, ie what is in the respective risk assessments, and the competence profile of the crews concerned.
 

LowLevel

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What I do find is that a local service would get a stop order at any local station, but ICs only ever get stop orders at stations that are normally served by ICs even if the platform is long enough*. Or is that different on EMR?

* Very extreme examples excepted, such as when the line was closed at Bletchley after a derailment, a couple of stranded Pendolinos operated a Tring stopping service.

In the worst days of 153s running alone on local trains if one appeared on an excessively busy Matlock service, or the Matlock train was cancelled, an IC would put in at Belper and sometimes Duffield to compensate.

When Leicester City won the Premier League a succession of northbound Intercity services called at Syston and Sileby to relieve overcrowding too.

I've also known them put in stops at Bedford in the evening peak when Thameslink have been knackered.
 

43066

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What I do find is that a local service would get a stop order at any local station, but ICs only ever get stop orders at stations that are normally served by ICs even if the platform is long enough*. Or is that different on EMR?

* Very extreme examples excepted, such as when the line was closed at Bletchley after a derailment, a couple of stranded Pendolinos operated a Tring stopping service.

In this case the EMR electrics will only serve stations which the intercity crews will be competent to call at (it’s the same crews operating both) so that shouldn’t be an issue.

In the worst days of 153s running alone on local trains if one appeared on an excessively busy Matlock service, or the Matlock train was cancelled, an IC would put in at Belper and sometimes Duffield to compensate.

Am I right in thinking this hasn’t happened in the recent past?
 

LowLevel

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In this case the EMR electrics will only serve stations which the intercity crews will be competent to call at (it’s the same crews operating both) so that shouldn’t be an issue.



Am I right in thinking this hasn’t happened in the recent past?

Up until 2019 it was a fairly regular occurrence but I don't think it has been required since (December 31st 2019 being bar a few exceptions the end of solo 153s in the East Midlands).

I think there are more considerations with regards to stopping HSTs (they did use to operate occasionally vice 222 on the morning down train that called at Belper) for obvious reasons and also 222s as you folks at the pointy end select the number of coaches and put up the release and so on so they like the correct signage to be in place except in emergencies etc.

For trains with solely guard operated doors they seem to be a lot more flexible - on the Regional side stopping orders for tiny halts like Manea are not unheard of and I once had to stop at Reddish North and Belle Vue on the Romiley lines one day.
 

Brissle Girl

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Split ticketing is much easier from Wellingborough (and Kettering if you don't mind catching the slower services), now all the 360 services stop at Bedford.
Anytime return fare from Wellingborough 106 or 60.90 with a split. From Kettering 112 becomes 66.20. I would imagine there will be a considerable loss in revenue once this catches on.
 

Bletchleyite

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Split ticketing is much easier from Wellingborough (and Kettering if you don't mind catching the slower services), now all the 360 services stop at Bedford.
Anytime return fare from Wellingborough 106 or 60.90 with a split. From Kettering 112 becomes 66.20. I would imagine there will be a considerable loss in revenue once this catches on.

£65.80 from Northampton. They will need to address that because it's now basically an identical service over a similar distance so doesn't justify costing £35 more.
 

Railperf

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Interesting that the Corby gets quickly caught up by the xx.02/xx.32 to Sheffield approaching Wellingborough, and the xx.05/xx.35 Nottingham following 3 mins behind the Sheffield. EMR might as well have just added an additional stop to the fast services by stopping them at one of the other stops such as Luton or Bedford (pick up only).
Instead they have added pathing and performance allowances to allow for the fact that these services will invariably be slowed down.
Better still the Sheffield and Nottingham really needed departures slots 3 to 4 mins later from St Pancras.
THis is what happens when you try to run a mixture of fast and slow services on essentially a two track railway to Bedford, with no grade separation to allow clean movements to/from the relief/slow lines.
 

JonathanH

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Better still the Sheffield and Nottingham really needed departures slots 3 to 4 mins later from St Pancras.
That clearly isn't possible with five calling patterns (EMR fast, EMR Corby, Thameslink St Albans fast, Thameslink semi-fast, Thameslink stopper) on two lines in each direction and the need to run some of them at quarter-hour frequencies. All of the services justify their place on the line.
 

Watershed

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Instead they have added pathing and performance allowances to allow for the fact that these services will invariably be slowed down.
Performance allowances are included as something analogous to engineering allowances, basically as an aid to right time performance. They generally apply to all services at defined points on each route, although there can be flexibility over the exact placement if it helps pathing. So performance allowances have nothing to do with the potential for being slowed down.

Pathing is of course added in to make a timetable work but you would need to have a fair amount of pathing to think about exchanging it for a station stop. I can't see more than 1 or 2 mins pathing in the Off-Peak EMR service, and even that is spread across timing points, so that's pretty impressive when you are weaving so many different services together over a two-track railway!
 

Bald Rick

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Interesting that the Corby gets quickly caught up by the xx.02/xx.32 to Sheffield approaching Wellingborough, and the xx.05/xx.35 Nottingham following 3 mins behind the Sheffield. EMR might as well have just added an additional stop to the fast services by stopping them at one of the other stops such as Luton or Bedford (pick up only).
Instead they have added pathing and performance allowances to allow for the fact that these services will invariably be slowed down.

But if you stop the Sheffield at Luton or Bedford, the Nottingham following behind also stops directly behind it (outside the station). Adding 5 minutes to both. And filling up the trains with Luton / Bedford passengers. Compared to a minute or two pathing time.


Better still the Sheffield and Nottingham really needed departures slots 3 to 4 mins later from St Pancras.

They can’t, as the Nottingham is followed on minimum headway by a Thameslink, which itself is caught by the Corby at Harpenden on minimum headway.
 

Gerard92

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That clearly isn't possible with five calling patterns (EMR fast, EMR Corby, Thameslink St Albans fast, Thameslink semi-fast, Thameslink stopper) on two lines in each direction and the need to run some of them at quarter-hour frequencies. All of the services justify their place on the line.

The former timetable had Corby services departing at xx:47 but now is xx: 45 & 15 which I’m guessing is to aid the additional stop at Luton Airport Parkway
 

Railperf

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Performance allowances are included as something analogous to engineering allowances, basically as an aid to right time performance. They generally apply to all services at defined points on each route, although there can be flexibility over the exact placement if it helps pathing. So performance allowances have nothing to do with the potential for being slowed down.

Pathing is of course added in to make a timetable work but you would need to have a fair amount of pathing to think about exchanging it for a station stop. I can't see more than 1 or 2 mins pathing in the Off-Peak EMR service, and even that is spread across timing points, so that's pretty impressive when you are weaving so many different services together over a two-track railway!
I'm just noting 9T58 running 2.5 mins late now impacting on the EMR XX.32 service to Sheffield on its tail at Harpenden Jn. 1D83 xx.35 Nottingham now on the Sheffield service tail. Looks like this time the Corby should clear to the slow lines at Wellingboro well ahead now and allow the Sheffield a clear run. It's a compromised set of timings trying to make everyone happy, but the punters sitting on the two intercity services will be wondering why their trains are slowing down. In fact the Sheffield seems to have had its timinmg to Leicester increased by a few mins for this purpose!

Looking further ahead, 1Y81 just cleared onto slow line at Wellingborough N, 1F80 standing at a red signal or crawling up to it, with the Nottingham racing up behind on caution signals and will be slowing down! It's madness. Maybe the additional Luton stop should be canned or alternate between Luton and Luton airport half hourly!
Luton is well served by Thameslink as it is!
 
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Bald Rick

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I'm just noting 9T58 running 2.5 mins late now impacting on the EMR XX.32 service to Sheffield on its tail at Harpenden Jn. 1D83 xx.35 Nottingham now on the Sheffield service tail. Looks like this time the Corby should clear to the slow lines at Wellingboro well ahead now and allow the Sheffield a clear run. It's a compromised set of timings trying to make everyone happy, but the punters sitting on the two intercity services will be wondering why their trains are slowing down.

This isn’t a new timetable thing. For as long as I can remember late running TL trains in the right quarter of the hour will have a pair of EMRs on its tail. The Sheffield will be at a stand (or nearly so) on approach to WH73 at St Albans, and be on restricted aspects until - if it’s lucky - WH81 will clear up to green as the TL clears Harpenden Junction to the slows. The Nottingham behind can be on restricted aspects from Radlett to Harpenden.
 

Railperf

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That's why TL should be limited to the SL. Get the EMR connect to additionally call at St Albans if you really have to, but switch EMR Connect onto the SL immediately North of Bedford. You might slow down the Corby time slightly, but at least you clear the mainline for the faster services. Thameslink criss-crossing on and off the fast lines is a joke and wastes capacity. I see GWR have severely reduced the amount of semi fast trains switching to and from relief lines.
 
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