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The impact of the new EMR timetable on journeys from Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough to London

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Llandudno

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For those Bedfordians who have felt that EMR don't want their custom then this timetable reinforces it from the snippets I have seen. Every government bleat on about putting more people on public transport and taking them off the road but EMR don't seem to agree.

If you are up north and want to get home to Bedford via Derby or Nottingham on weekdays then prepare to fester. For example the 2011 from Nottingham requires a 45 minute rancid fester at Kettering so Bedford not reached until 2209.

How about a mouth watering one hour fester at Kettering? Just do the 2048 from Nottingham for that pleasure and arrive Bedford at 2304. The 2048 will be in London by the time the Bedford connection leaves Kettering.

It sounds like an appalling service for Bedfordians so anyone living in Bedford has to drive but if they don't drive then they have issues. The last bus from Kettering to Bedford is 1748 on weekdays. Would anyone here appreciate an hour fester to get home on a so called connection?

It would seem EMR don't want Bedford folk on their services at all never mind just between St Pancras and Bedford with their current peak Wellingborough buses by trying to put them off travelling north as well by making it difficult to get home.

The only alternative for non car owners is to do the West Coast or east coast routes to either Milton Keynes or St Neots for the X5 buses to Bedford on weekdays just to keep moving and avoid wasting time at Kettering.
Problem with changing trains at Kettering in the evening is the lack of any sort of catering facilities in and around the station area. There is no pub, hot food takeaway or convenience store within 7-8 minutes walk from the station, and if that’s if you know where you are going.

Not a great place to hang around for half an hour or so for a connecting train.

Could be an opportunity for someone to open a micropub!
 
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HamworthyGoods

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You are selective in being blinkered as to what you want to see. It is no improvement for those in Luton

Genuine question but I thought Luton Town actually gained in frequency from this, previously an hourly northbound call per hour is replaced by a half-hourly service to Kettering, so double the frequency it’s just you can’t get direct to Leicester anymore but have more overall journey opportunities? Bedford already has 2tph EMR calling so can see the upset here. Apologies if this assumption is wrong.
 

Aictos

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Genuine question but I thought Luton Town actually gained in frequency from this, previously an hourly northbound call per hour is replaced by a half-hourly service to Kettering, so double the frequency it’s just you can’t get direct to Leicester anymore but have more overall journey opportunities? Bedford already has 2tph EMR calling so can see the upset here. Apologies if this assumption is wrong.
You're right of course that Luton and Bedford stands to gain from the timetable that will be in place from May, with half hourly services taking half the time of the Thameslink services I think that's a acceptable trade off especially when you consider that places further north such as Sheffield, Derby and Nottingham will benefit from a faster journey.

Of course not everyone will be happy but the sign of a good timetable is trying to strike a balance for all stakeholders and not just those who shout or rant the latest.

It's about the bigger picture which people need to think about, anyway I look forward to this timetable becoming a reality as I believe it will bring much needed improvements to the MML.
 

cle

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Genuine question but I thought Luton Town actually gained in frequency from this, previously an hourly northbound call per hour is replaced by a half-hourly service to Kettering, so double the frequency it’s just you can’t get direct to Leicester anymore but have more overall journey opportunities? Bedford already has 2tph EMR calling so can see the upset here. Apologies if this assumption is wrong.
Yes, both Luton stations get the same 2tph service, so it is an improvement in that regard - if not in destinations.
 

43055

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Read what I said again about being much further north than Nottingham so it is not feasible to make the 1950 if coming back from the North East for example.

EMR could easily make the 2011 and 2048 services stop at Bedford and Luton without subjecting those passengers to 45 and 60 minutes festers for a connection late into the evening.
Looking at a weekday evening the 2048 from Nottingham connects with a 2149 from Kettering and the 2140 connects with the 2243 from Kettering. As these are only 3 mins I'm guessing the journey planners will show the connections like you say with a 45-60 min connection at Kettering.

As for stopping at Bedford & Luton is is not that easy as both services are closely followed by a Thameslink service south of Harpenden which then stops at St Albans and continues across London.
 

Bikeman78

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Looking at a weekday evening the 2048 from Nottingham connects with a 2149 from Kettering and the 2140 connects with the 2243 from Kettering. As these are only 3 mins I'm guessing the journey planners will show the connections like you say with a 45-60 min connection at Kettering.

As for stopping at Bedford & Luton is is not that easy as both services are closely followed by a Thameslink service south of Harpenden which then stops at St Albans and continues across London.
What is the minimum interchange time at Kettering? Hopefully the schedules of the trains involved can be tweaked slightly so that they do connect.
 

Bald Rick

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Where do I start....

You are selective in being blinkered as to what you want to see. It is no improvement for those in Luton and Bedford.

It certainly is an improvement for those in Luton and Bedford if you want to get to Wellingborough or Kettering, as the service will be half hourly or nearly so, compared to the current 14/46 minute gaps northbound and 10/50 southbound (Bedford), or hourly service from each of Luton / Luton Airport Parkway.

For those who want to go further north - like me - the loss of direct trains for most (but not all) of the day is offset, in my opinion, by there being twice as many connection opportunities. I would regard a regular two trains an hour service, via a connection, to the East Midlands a good service.

What is untrue about Bedford losing an hourly direct service to Leicester and Nottingham when the new timetable has you changing trains twice to get to the latter?

You didn’t say that in your post. You said:


If you are up north and want to get home to Bedford via Derby or Nottingham on weekdays then prepare to fester.

Which implies that every prospective passenger from ‘up north’ wanting to travel to Bedford via Derby or Nottingham at any time on a weekday requires a ‘fester’. Clearly this is not the case. There are 32 weekday trains from Nottingham to St Pancras that call at Kettering, and all but three of them have a connection to Bedford of 15 minutes or less. Most are 12-13 minutes. The two examples you quoted are two of the three. The third calls at Luton Airport Parkway - agreed not much use for Bedford, but good for Luton.

Followed by:

It sounds like an appalling service for Bedfordians

Which it really isn’t, in the round.

And then:
It would seem EMR don't want Bedford folk on their services at all

Which clearly isn’t the case, otherwise they wouldn’t stop 74 trains there each weekday from May (30% more than now).


What is untrue about Bedford losing an hourly direct service to Leicester and Nottingham when the new timetable has you changing trains twice to get to the latter?

It’s only one change for Nottingham, at Kettering. So that bit is not correct either.



Read what I said again about being much further north than Nottingham so it is not feasible to make the 1950 if coming back from the North East for example.

Yes you did say Lancashire or Yorkshire, but not until your second post. You didn’t mention the North East. Your first post said “up north ... via Derby or Nottingham ”. Which I interpreted to be anywhere north of Derby or Nottingham.

It has never been particularly straightforward to get to Bedford from Lancashire and most of Yorkshire. Which is why not many people do it. However, for those that do, and need to travel late afternoon /evening, it is, of course, feasible to get the 1950 from Nottingham. You just need to make sure you set off at the right time. That might be earlier than you would like, or than you are used to, but it is still definitely feasible.


EMR could easily make the 2011 and 2048 services stop at Bedford and Luton without subjecting those passengers to 45 and 60 minutes festers for a connection late into the evening.

Could they? I don’t know. Perhaps you should write to them and ask. The Train Planning Manager for EMR might even read these pages, so he could be expecting it.

You also said:

Typical response from someone not impacted

And that wasn’t correct either. But I take the view that while it will cause me to have to change trains more often to make the regular journeys I do, there are clearly much wider benefits to many more people, and a lot more winners than losers.



Who are you to judge other people

I don’t judge people I’ve never met, with the exception of senior politicians.

Stick to the subject without being arrogant as though you know what is best for everyone.

But it seems you might do.
 
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43096

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Nope, only those who post things that aren’t true, for example suggesting that one small issue with the timetable makes the whole thing bad, when actually it’s an improvement.

As a regular user of the MML I am impacted. Mostly, my journeys will be improved. However when I need to stay in Nottingham or Derby later I’ll make sure I’m on the 1950.
The only real issue is that the connections at Kettering are only to/from the Nottinghams. Ideally you’d stop one Nottingham and one Sheffield. I realise why it hasn’t been done, as it would need the Nottingham fast and Sheffield semi-fast to swap paths, which I guess causes conflicts elsewhere.
 

Pumbaa

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The only real issue is that the connections at Kettering are only to/from the Nottinghams. Ideally you’d stop one Nottingham and one Sheffield. I realise why it hasn’t been done, as it would need the Nottingham fast and Sheffield semi-fast to swap paths, which I guess causes conflicts elsewhere.
Indeed. You lose the slot approaching Dore, which both costs you additional trains as you can’t make the turnaround at Sheffield, and effectively leaves Sheffield with an hourly service.
 

flitwickbeds

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Having read these posts, I understand the reasons why and the new timetable is a large improvement for the majority of EMR's customers.

But I find it absolutely amazing that what used to be an easy one change journey for me (Flitwick <> Bedford <> Derby) is now a 3 change journey (Flitwick <> Bedford <> Kettering <> Leicester <> Derby)
 

Ianno87

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Having read these posts, I understand the reasons why and the new timetable is a large improvement for the majority of EMR's customers.

But I find it absolutely amazing that what used to be an easy one change journey for me (Flitwick <> Bedford <> Derby) is now a 3 change journey (Flitwick <> Bedford <> Kettering <> Leicester <> Derby)

Presumably there was only certain trains (in current timetable) where 1 change was possible?

On the plus side, the 3 change option should be possible consistently every half hour, rather than the current standard hour option of 2 changes (Bedford and Leicester) that was only possible once per hour.
 

Watershed

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Having read these posts, I understand the reasons why and the new timetable is a large improvement for the majority of EMR's customers.

But I find it absolutely amazing that what used to be an easy one change journey for me (Flitwick <> Bedford <> Derby) is now a 3 change journey (Flitwick <> Bedford <> Kettering <> Leicester <> Derby)
A one-change journey is still possible, via St Pancras. Obviously that's slower and more expensive than the 3 change option, but you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs...
 

flitwickbeds

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Presumably there was only certain trains (in current timetable) where 1 change was possible?

On the plus side, the 3 change option should be possible consistently every half hour, rather than the current standard hour option of 2 changes (Bedford and Leicester) that was only possible once per hour.
From what I can see under the current timetable, it is now 2 changes. Presumably this came in at the last major timetable change (which introduced the replacement bus Bedford <> Wellingborough at peak times) as when I made the journey regularly (not for around 10 years) it was definitely one change at Bedford for most (all?) of the day.

On the plus side, I could leave Flitwick earlier and arrive in Derby earlier with the new 3 changes, than I can now with the current 2 changes!
 

Ianno87

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From what I can see under the current timetable, it is now 2 changes. Presumably this came in at the last major timetable change (which introduced the replacement bus Bedford <> Wellingborough at peak times) as when I made the journey regularly (not for around 10 years) it was definitely one change at Bedford for most (all?) of the day.

That would be the pre-2008, pre-Corby timetable, when the 4tph MML long distance service was:
1 Notts fast
1 Notts slow
1 Sheffield fast
1 Derby slow

So you would have changed at Bedford onto the "slow" Derby service.
 

flitwickbeds

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That would be the pre-2008, pre-Corby timetable, when the 4tph MML long distance service was:
1 Notts fast
1 Notts slow
1 Sheffield fast
1 Derby slow

So you would have changed at Bedford onto the "slow" Derby service.
Thanks. That sounds about right, I was doing the journey while at uni and I graduated in 2007.

It's a shame that not even 1tph can call all stations Bedford to Leicester. That would at least put it back to a 2 change journey. I appreciate the flow of the specific Flitwick <> Derby example will be very rare, but there must be lots of people in the same situation from May.

Are there any other examples of where a service has been "split up" to make what used to be a direct journey (take Bedford to Leicester or Wellingborough to Market Harborough as better examples) require a change or even 2, on a line which directly connects both places and no other operator offers an alternative option? I suspect not.
 

Ianno87

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Are there any other examples of where a service has been "split up" to make what used to be a direct journey (take Bedford to Leicester or Wellingborough to Market Harborough as better examples) require a change or even 2, on a line which directly connects both places and no other operator offers an alternative option? I suspect not.

Not entirely unusual, e.g.

-Watford and Nuneaton lost most long distance stops in 2008, replaced by the London Midlands Trent Valley service
-Places like Retford and Stevenage on the ECML generally gets only stops in Leeds/York services, with a change required to get further north
 

Aictos

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Not entirely unusual, e.g.

-Watford and Nuneaton lost most long distance stops in 2008, replaced by the London Midlands Trent Valley service
-Places like Retford and Stevenage on the ECML generally gets only stops in Leeds/York services, with a change required to get further north
Another example was the Inverness and Aberdeen services used to call at Peterborough but National Express did a stupid TT edit in my view and made it first stop York so gone from a direct service to having to change at York.
 

JonathanH

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Another example was the Inverness and Aberdeen services used to call at Peterborough but National Express did a stupid TT edit in my view and made it first stop York so gone from a direct service to having to change at York.
What is wrong with the 'top of the hour' ECML services running first stop York and these being the ones which run beyond Edinburgh? Peterborough still has direct trains to Edinburgh on the other side of the hour.

In the grand scheme of things the fact that East Anglian passengers have an extra change at Edinburgh for destinations north of there is probably offset by the demand fast services from London to York, the North East and Scotland engenders.

As pointed out in this thread, there seems to be an attraction in running services that have substantial non-stop sections which then force a small number of passengers to have an extra change.

On the MML, it seems a sensible mix of running fast to Kettering and Leicester to ensure long distance journey times are minimised.
 
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Aictos

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What is wrong with the 'top of the hour' ECML services running first stop York and these being the ones which run beyond Edinburgh? Peterborough still has direct trains to Edinburgh on the other side of the hour.

In the grand scheme of things the fact that East Anglian passengers have an extra change at Edinburgh for destinations north of there is probably offset by the demand fast services from London to York, the North East and Scotland engenders.

As pointed out in this thread, there seems to be an attraction in running services that have substantial non-stop sections which then force a small number of passengers to have an extra change.

On the MML, it seems a sensible mix of running fast to Kettering and Leicester to ensure long distance journey times are minimised.
Because it worked for decades and the only reason why the Peterborough call was dropped which is a important hub to interchange at for Cross Country, Great Northern, East Midlands and East Anglia passengers is so the TOC at the time could claim faster journeys. There was no real reason why the call was dropped other then to make them look good.
 

Ianno87

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Because it worked for decades and the only reason why the Peterborough call was dropped which is a important hub to interchange at for Cross Country, Great Northern, East Midlands and East Anglia passengers is so the TOC at the time could claim faster journeys. There was no real reason why the call was dropped other then to make them look good.

No, it was dropped to make the timetable work, when the East Coast pattern increased from 4tph to 5tph.

The vast, vast majority of East Anglia passengers are still caterered for by the call on the opposite half hour for stations to Newcastle/Edinburgh.
 

Johnny Lewis

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Although this is going off-topic, I understand that the ECML re-cast, now planned for May 2022, will see the London to Inverness and Aberdeen direct services become extensions of the London - Edinburgh semi-fasts, so will probably reinstate the direct Peterborough - north of Edinburgh through services.
 

TheBigD

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Although this is going off-topic, I understand that the ECML re-cast, now planned for May 2022, will see the London to Inverness and Aberdeen direct services become extensions of the London - Edinburgh semi-fasts, so will probably reinstate the direct Peterborough - north of Edinburgh through services.
This was covered in the old thread...

 

BrianW

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I'm not personally affected so hopefully may be seen as 'neutral'- please be gentle with me If anything (or all) I say is rubbish.

I would have thought a regular pattern would help generate and sustain business.

I note that the current timetable suggests journey times Bedford- Leicester and changing patterns for Derby or Nottingham very variable. 45mins to Ih30! Stopping and changing patterns also very variable, although southbound looks more regular than northbound?

Is it not possible or desirable to construct something with a regular pattern? I know its not possible to meet all expectations trying to 'get it right' (or optimising) for Sheffield, Derby, Notts as well as Loughborough, Leicester, stations to Bedford and Mayor Dave ... maybe more interchanging at Kettering into and out of Corby's??

Looking forward to seeing plaudits for planners.
 

Bald Rick

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Looking forward to seeing plaudits for planners.

You’ll get plenty from me!

Fitting in quick London services to the prime regional cities (Derby, Nottingham, Sheffield), speeding up the slower Nottingham service, adding in extra services to Corby, providing decent connections between the Nottinghams and Corbys in both directions, flighting them all through fixed Thameslink paths south of Harpenden, and the other big constraint at Sheffield, plus shifting all the local / regional EMR services in the Derby / Nottingham area to fit..... that must have been quite a challenge.

For sure you can’t please everybody, but there will be many more net gains than net losses from this.
 

Hey 3

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We can establish there are no losers but the winners of the May 2021 timetable will be:
Corby
Kettering
Bedford
Luton
Luton Airport Parkway
Wellingbrough will not gain nor lose neither will stations north of Kettering/Corby
 

Llandudno

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We can establish there are no losers but the winners of the May 2021 timetable will be:
Corby
Kettering
Bedford
Luton
Luton Airport Parkway
Wellingbrough will not gain nor lose neither will stations north of Kettering/Corby
Sheffield and Chesterfield gain also with later fast trains in both directions.
 

Merle Haggard

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We can establish there are no losers but the winners of the May 2021 timetable will be:
Corby
Kettering
Bedford
Luton
Luton Airport Parkway
Wellingbrough will not gain nor lose neither will stations north of Kettering/Corby

Apart from Kettering, they will lose (Corby never had) a service to the North without changing at least once.
Easy to dismiss the Northamptonshire stations as serving small unimportant towns. From April 1st Northamptonshire Count Council was split into two unitary authorities. the eastern one, called North Northamptonshire and which represents the part of the county served by Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby, has a population of about 350,000.
 

Bald Rick

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We can establish there are no losers but the winners of the May 2021 timetable will be:
Corby
Kettering
Bedford
Luton
Luton Airport Parkway
Wellingbrough will not gain nor lose neither will stations north of Kettering/Corby

That’s very broad brush. Winners and losers are individual passengers.

A regular passenger from, say, Luton to Nottingham might think they lose, as they are trading one direct service an hour for two services both requiring a change at Kettering. Alternatively they might think the doubling of the effective frequency is a win. Wellingborough passengers will lose almost all direct services towards Leicester and beyond, but gain a more evenly spaced service to /from London. (Quality of train and journey time may be another factor).

I’d say the big winners are Kettering & Corby passengers with more services to London (and in Kettering’s case, more northbound to Leicester) and Luton Airport Parkway with a regular 2tph non stop service to London (great for the airport).
 

swt_passenger

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... maybe more interchanging at Kettering into and out of Corby's??

Looking forward to seeing plaudits for planners.
Isn’t that exactly what they have done? Kettering is to be the main interchange between the stations served by the “electrics”, and the Nottinghams.
 
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