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The introduction of ticket machines

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Dyncymraeg

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I am curious when were ticket machines first introduced on the British railways. There have been discussions on this forum whether ticket offices are necessary due to ticket machines, apps and the internet. Prior to the introduction of apps and the internet, could ticket machines alone have replaced ticket offices and have there been suggestions in the more distant past that ticket offices be phased out.
 
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Taunton

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The GWR (the proper one) used hand-held ticket machines for the guard on their rail motors/push pull trains from the early 1900s onwards, when they built unstaffed halts along such lines. More recently, 1960s, when Gerry Fiennes introduced his "Basic Railway" on East Anglia branches, the same applied. Such ticket machines normally mirrored those in common use by conductors on bus services of the era. Fiennes' book "I Tried to Run a Railway" describes how his approach was initially welcomed where the option was closure, but once 'saved' there was then civic upset at supposedly 'important' stations (Newmarket was one) being reduced to an unstaffed halt.
 

Snow1964

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London Transport had quick fare ticket machines for decades (the free standing ones that issued a ticket for fixed value valid to selection of stops that were that fare. There are old photos with them pre decimalisation amounts (so at least 51 years ago)

Network South East had lots of quick fare machines from early 1990s, big red machines with 40 destinations (think some at big stations had about 90 destinations), and 18 ticket types. There were a few earlier versions in 1980s mainly in south London
 
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Roger1973

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London Transport had quick fare ticket machines for decades (the free standing ones that issued a ticket for fixed value valid to selection of stops that were that fare. There are old photos with them pre decimalisation amounts (so at least 51 years ago)

Looks like they had something similar as far back as 1932 when Turnpike Lane opened - photo here.
 

hexagon789

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The first self-service ticket machines in Great Britain, were installed by the Central London Railway in 1904.

One inserted two pennies, pulled a bar and a flat-fare ticket was deposited below.
 

30907

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In addition, it was not uncommon in the 60s/70s for (suburban) booking offices to be part time and for the staff member on platform duty to have an excess fare pad.

The redundant (or surplus?) first generation NSE machines ended up with Northern, along with red platform benches etc....
 

Taunton

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There's a range of old Underground user-operated ticket machines in the museum depot at Acton Town, which will bring back memories for those who recall them. They would be mounted side by side, a separate machine for each fare value. The ones from the 1960s to their end in the 1980s (?) had an angled glass plate at head height, listing the various destinations alphabetically down both sides, and a huge fare value "40p" (or initially "2/6") across the middle. It seemed to be assumed that most users would be regulars, who would know their fare and spot that first from a distance.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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The first self-service ticket machines in Great Britain, were installed by the Central London Railway in 1904.
I believe that's correct, so almost 120 years old now.

Understand that an electrically operated coin-slot machine, also issuing standard cardboard tickets, was put in service on the District and London Electric Railways in c. 1908.
 

hexagon789

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I believe that's correct, so almost 120 years old now.

Understand that an electrically operated coin-slot machine, also issuing standard cardboard tickets, was put in service on the District and London Electric Railways in c. 1908.
Yes, I think I read of those in a LU book with a section on ticketing. I think those may have been flat-fare 2d. tickets as well?
 

Mcr Warrior

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Have either @timmydunn and/or Siddy Holloway featured any of these "first generation" underground/tube ticket machines in their various London Underground TV programmes?
 

Ken H

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The LU things were simple. Just selling one fare. They got more complicated when they started having tickets that could be used for the gates installed - firstly on the Victoria line. Then they needed to encode the magnetic coating on the back.
 

swt_passenger

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Have either @timmydunn and/or Siddy Holloway featured any of these "first generation" underground/tube ticket machines in their various London Underground TV programmes?
They had a bit on ticketing towards the end of episode 9 of the recent series. It mentioned what they said were the very first machines, just photos, but skipped on to the Victoria line introduction of gates within a few seconds.
 

Taunton

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Very distant memory, but that the first automatic gates (installed alongside manual ones) on the Underground to manage entry and exit were along the eastbound District Line for the couple of stations east of Acton Town. A considerable number of those boarding at the latter were Underground staff, who the trial was confined to at first (they would have to accept being messed about as things were got going), then released to the public with special yellow tickets, magnetically encoded by the ticket machine. Early 1960s I think. Then extended to the Victoria Line. Do I remember also that The Queen got a special yellow automatic ticket when opening the latter.
 

Roger1973

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Further advance on 1932 on London Underground - I've found a London Reconnections article from 2018, which includes pictures of machines at Piccadilly Circus in 1928.

The ones from the 1960s to their end in the 1980s (?) had an angled glass plate at head height, listing the various destinations alphabetically down both sides, and a huge fare value "40p" (or initially "2/6") across the middle. It seemed to be assumed that most users would be regulars, who would know their fare and spot that first from a distance.

Yes - I just about remember them.

The 'Underground Ticketing System' where automated gates became (more or less) standard started in 1987 (with possible experiments earlier) - this also involved rebuilding many ticket offices so that they had an excess fares window inside the new barriers. From what I remember / gather the previous system was that anyone who had not got the right ticket would just hand some money to the ticket collector at their destination, who in turn would hand some of that money in at the end of their shift. I'm not sure if LT ever published any figures or estimates of just how much was being fiddled...

Some central London stations at least (and possibly others on the Victoria Line) had automatic ticket barriers / gates before then (yellow tickets only) alongside the staffed 'barriers'.
 

Ediswan

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then released to the public with special yellow tickets, magnetically encoded by the ticket machine. Early 1960s I think. Then extended to the Victoria Line.
I recall the original yellow tickets. If I remember correctly, the entire reverse side was coated in a light brown magnetic material. Magnetic stripes came later.
 

Roger1973

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I recall the original yellow tickets. If I remember correctly, the entire reverse side was coated in a light brown magnetic material. Magnetic stripes came later.

That matches my memory of the Underground yellow tickets (they were about the same size and shape as what was then a standard underground ticket - think they may have been very slightly bigger than a BR 'Edmonson' ticket of the same era.)
 

Ken H

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That matches my memory of the Underground yellow tickets (they were about the same size and shape as what was then a standard underground ticket - think they may have been very slightly bigger than a BR 'Edmonson' ticket of the same era.)
They had to be capable of being read mag side up or down, and either end in first. So the dats was put on 4 times starting each corner. But then the gates had to update all 4 iterations of the data. I think later they were only checked for date as the scheme was a tad unreliable. There was a 'Splurge' code that just said 'open any gate if the ticket is dated today'
 

DelW

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Self service ticket machines for main line railways would only have become feasible when machine readable bank cards were introduced - maybe 1980s or '90s? Before that vending machines only accepted coins, which would obviously limit the value which could be sold without needing a big stack of coins.
I suspect also that before then the technology didn't exist to sell anything more than a very limited range of tickets from a machine, as in the LU examples above.
 

Ken H

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Self service ticket machines for main line railways would only have become feasible when machine readable bank cards were introduced - maybe 1980s or '90s? Before that vending machines only accepted coins, which would obviously limit the value which could be sold without needing a big stack of coins.
I suspect also that before then the technology didn't exist to sell anything more than a very limited range of tickets from a machine, as in the LU examples above.
When did we have machines at accepted banknotes? There again many local fares were under £5 so a coin only machine would be useful.
 

swt_passenger

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Self service ticket machines for main line railways would only have become feasible when machine readable bank cards were introduced - maybe 1980s or '90s? Before that vending machines only accepted coins, which would obviously limit the value which could be sold without needing a big stack of coins.
I suspect also that before then the technology didn't exist to sell anything more than a very limited range of tickets from a machine, as in the LU examples above.
NSE quick fare machines (the big red things with loads of push buttons) did take notes as well as coins. Not sure about the date they got note readers though, they may have been from new?
 

Rescars

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Presumably the first ticket machines were those which sold platform tickets, originally at 1d per ticket I believe (though long before even my time!). IIRC some of these machines were preserved and sold souvenir tickets at the likes of the Clapham museum in the 1960s.
 

AY1975

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London Transport had quick fare ticket machines for decades (the free standing ones that issued a ticket for fixed value valid to selection of stops that were that fare. There are old photos with them pre decimalisation amounts (so at least 51 years ago)
I believe that Merseyrail stations had some similar machines in the 1970s.
I recall the original yellow tickets. If I remember correctly, the entire reverse side was coated in a light brown magnetic material. Magnetic stripes came later.
Yes, I think those yellow tickets were around until about the mid to late 1980s when they were replaced by credit card sized magnetic stripe tickets.

The Glasgow Subway still used pre-1987ish London Underground style yellow tickets in the late 1980s, and maybe even into the early '90s.
 

The Conductor

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Presuambly the question relates to self-service machines rather than ones in booking offices. On BR, as opposed to LT, there were a few mechanical machines; some built by Setright, better known for their bus ticket machines, were used at, from memory, Broad Street in the 1970s. These allowed selection by a passenger from a small range of fares and destinations.There was a brief trial with Autoslot machines- from memory on the Waterloo and City- in the 1970s, which were a coin in the slot for a simple fare job. In short these were of limited use for most bookings.The Swiss-built Autelca machines( there were several versions) were introduced by several European railways, including BR, in 1989 and was the first recognisably modern machine with push buttons and a fair range of options. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascom_B8050_Quickfare has more. Booking office machines have a far more venerable history. The oldest of all was the AEG Regina machine (ancestor of he Multiprinter) introduced at Birmingham Snow Hill c1911. This was German and went out of use during WW1 (can't think why.) The basic design was licensed to Westinghouse who built several machines for BR from about 1956- Snow Hill again, Euston and Liverpool St to name a few. The LNER intoduced the push-button operated Rapidprinter, again AEG/Westinghouse, in the 1930s for heavily used bookings- the standard LT booking office tickets of the 1940s to 70s were Rapidprinters too. The Southern opted for NCR21s form about 1968- a cash register into which was inserted an Edmondson card ticket, while other regions went for the Hugin HDA and then NCR51s- large white cards. These were all displalced by APTIS from the mid-80s which intreduced the format we all know and love (sic) today.
 

Taunton

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other regions went for the Hugin HDA and then NCR51s- large white cards.
Taunton was one of the very first to have NCR ticket machines installed, late 1960s. It may have just been first in the South-West, it was featured on the television news (possibly only Points South-West on Westward TV), and being aware we all in the town tuned in for a couple of fleeting shots of staff we knew selling the tickets on the first day. Being on TV was a Big Thing in those days.

Passengers used to Edmonson-sized tickets going in their wallet or pocket were shown being perplexed over where to put them.

It seemed extraordinary that for such a ticket issuing modernisation, instead of taking a Single from the old rack, the clerk now had to produce a large pair of what looked like kitchen scissors and snip a corner off where it said 'Return'. This was not shown on the television!
 

Pigeon

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From what I remember / gather the previous system was that anyone who had not got the right ticket would just hand some money to the ticket collector at their destination, who in turn would hand some of that money in at the end of their shift. I'm not sure if LT ever published any figures or estimates of just how much was being fiddled...

It got worse than that. I remember there being nowhere to buy a ticket from at all on Sunday evenings for the Metropolitan line at Paddington, so you just got on the train without one and paid when you got off. I suppose if your destination station was using the same arrangement you got a free ride - I don't know if any did but if Paddington was like that I'm sure some lesser places must have been. But there were usually only about two or three other passengers on the train anyway so I don't suppose they cared very much.

The Bakerloo and District/Circle ticket offices did stay open, and they had the slant-top ticket machines as well. The District/Circle platforms could get quite packed - total contrast to the Met.
 

Sprinter107

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I'm sure i remember some ticket machines on the Manchester to New Mills line having a dial on them which you turned to the station you wanted. I never used one, so don't know exactly how they worked once you had selected your station with the dial.
 
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Trackman

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I'm sure i remember some ticket machines on the Manchester to New Mills line having some machines with a dial on them which you turned to the station you wanted. I never used one, so don't know exactly how they worked.
I remember them! not sure if it was in your area though.
 

davetheguard

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Taunton was one of the very first to have NCR ticket machines installed, late 1960s

It seemed extraordinary that for such a ticket issuing modernisation, instead of taking a Single from the old rack, the clerk now had to produce a large pair of what looked like kitchen scissors and snip a corner off where it said 'Return'.

I remember those sort of NCR ticket machines.

Apart from cutting the corner off with a pair of scissors to create a single rather than a return, the other oddity -with the benefit of hindsight- was that the destination was pre-printed on the ticket. The ticket machine then added the origin station; fare; class; ticket type; adult/child/railcard. I wonder why the machine couldn't print the destination too.

So a ticket office still needed to keep a huge stock of otherwise blank tickets to various stations that were regularly requested; the only alternative was to write the destination in by hand, which slowed up ticket issue even further.
 

nw1

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I have a vague memory of some smaller stations on the Portsmouth Direct (e.g. Milford, Witley) having some sort of ticket machine before the days of NSE (around 1982-85). The same kind of style as the NSE ones, with a selection of common destinations and push-buttons.

Larger stations such as Haslemere and Guildford did not.

I would presume that at the smaller stations, the booking offices were closed off-peak, but they did not want people to buy tickets on the trains. Certainly I never observed anyone buying a ticket on the train in this era, having boarded at a smaller station.

Does this sound right or am I dreaming it?
 

Ken H

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What were the huge machines in Euston ticket office? seemed to have a long screen with all the stations, like a steam radio. think the clerk slid along the display on his chair. about 2m long I think. anyone got a pic
 
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