the most over the top restrictions introduced

[RomeoCharlie71]

The elephant in the room is schools. Everything else, as you can see from when the graph went on the up, is twiddling round the edges.

They had since March to design and recruit for a way to socially distance in schools. They failed. Epically.

Kids needed back to school, though. And with the UK Government pushing the "go to work" message (which has since receded) then schools needed to return full-time as there would be limited childcare options (grandparents, of course, but at higher risk). Expecting young kids to physically distance AND learn AND develop social skills is impossible. There's also evidence younger kids don't spread the virus as much as older kids (and adults do).

I think secondary schools also needed to return full-time and I'm glad that's happened, but it does seem there's a bit of a problem regarding it. The schools will be empty in the winter if a whole year group is getting sent home when one kid tests positive.

Then again, having the house to myself without being called to help my younger sister with school work is quite nice.

 

[Richard Scott]

The elephant in the room is schools. Everything else, as you can see from when the graph went on the up, is twiddling round the edges.

They had since March to design and recruit for a way to socially distance in schools. They failed. Epically.

Is it? Local secondary school has had zero cases since returning. Easy to blame one thing. How about it's likely to be we're heading into Autumn and this is what happens with respiratory viruses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do see your point but realistically, it's not possible to socially distance in schools if all students are to be in full time attendance.

Then it's not possible for all students to be in full time attendance.

 

[Richard Scott]

Then it's not possible for all students to be in full time attendance.

It is and we just deal with that and learn to live with the virus. Eventually we'll have to. If we don't have educated children our country doesn't have a future and all of us suffer. We can't go down that road, children have lost too much time already and it cannot happen again.

 

[Scotrail12]

Especially as (assuming things haven't changed since my student days) many students go out mid-week anyway because it's cheaper.

I can't speak for others but I prefer doing things mid-week. Saturdays in Glasgow are ideally avoided.

I agree with the comment that schools are probably what have driven the recent spikes. However, I feel that education is too important and given what we know about the virus not affecting kids, I think we just need to keep schools open. If schools closed again, cases would reduce without a doubt but what's the trade off of that? Kids with no social lives, parents unable to work due to having to be around kids, poor quality of education and that is a long term impact whereas the virus itself is more short term.

I try and look at things from a utilitarian perspective and few restrictions seem to benefit the greater good.

 

[DB]

If schools closed again, cases would reduce without a doubt but what's the trade off of that? Kids with no social lives, parents unable to work due to having to be around kids, poor quality of education and that is a long term impact whereas the virus itself is more short term.

And it would just be kicking the can down the road - close schools / cases reduce (maybe) / open schools / cases increase again. It's pointless and would do a lot of harm for no long-term gain.

 

[kez19]

I would seriously consider questioning whether the Scottish Government actually has the right to stop you from seeing your family, and also whether the Scottish government has the right to stop you from going to the pub.

Perhaps your parents could help you with this, or you could contact Citizens Advice Scotland. You might also wish to contact your student union for advice on this, or set up a petition at https://www.parliament.scot/gettinginvolved/petitions/index.aspx, and use social media to promote this, whilst also writing to your MSP. (reminding him or her that you have a vote at next years elections)

Under the Human Rights Act you have a right to family life, and no public authority can interfere with this right ".. except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others..." (from legislation.gov.uk)

The Scottish government would have to show that preventing you from travelling to see your family was a necessary and proportionate response to the public health threat posed by COVID-19, and the legal case would hinge on whether the powers conferred on the Scottish government by the Coronavirus Act 2020 overrides the provisions of the Human Rights Act as applied to Scotland. They would have to be able to show that the mere act of travelling from Glasgow to your home location (Dumfries ?) poses a serious threat to public health, and they would have to be able to explain to a court why they have not issued such advice to the general population.

Of course the Scottish government is relying on bullying and threatening young people who it thinks are not going to stand up for themselves. I sincerely hope that the great tradition of student protests brings about a reversal of this wholly unwarranted attack on your right to go about your lawful business.

The thing would be ... would politicians listen? These days you have politicians that please themselves on things, (might be a bit off topic here for a minute), but when they do things such as surveys etc and say the public say no they'll just do it anyway (seen this up my neck of the woods!), whilst I agree with approaching the local MP maybe drag all the local MPs into it even if thats SNP its about time they all got their fingers out their asses, than thinking of their own self worth and listen to the public.

As I have said all along it'll be one rule for the general public and another for these politicians with these restrictions.., Also the way they adjust these restrictions are a joke anyway but its becoming more apparent that its being made up as they go along.

 

[MattA7]

The thing would be ... would politicians listen? These days you have politicians that please themselves on things, (might be a bit off topic here for a minute), but when they do things such as surveys etc and say the public say no they'll just do it anyway (seen this up my neck of the woods!), whilst I agree with approaching the local MP maybe drag all the local MPs into it even if thats SNP its about time they all got their fingers out their asses, than thinking of their own self worth and listen to the public.

As I have said all along it'll be one rule for the general public and another for these politicians with these restrictions.., Also the way they adjust these restrictions are a joke anyway but its becoming more apparent that its being made up as they go along.

wouldn’t the Scottish government just use the “for the protection of health” exemption if someone tried to sue them under the human rights act

 

[Richard Scott]

wouldn’t the Scottish government just use the “for the protection of health” exemption if someone tried to sue them under the human rights act

It's about time they were held accountable for this and had to evidence the fact 'for the protection of human health'.

 

[kez19]

wouldn’t the Scottish government just use the “for the protection of health” exemption if someone tried to sue them under the human rights act

Probably knowing this lot they'll have something in the back as backup, but wouldn't it be breaching human rights? No expert on this field either but surely you could argue that (for both UK/Scot Governments) that they could be breaking human rights?

It's about time they were held accountable for this and had to evidence the fact 'for the protection of human health'.

but but.... she'll get back to us later on that....

I doubt she knows what being held accountable let alone responsible for is... she just deflect it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And it would just be kicking the can down the road - close schools / cases reduce (maybe) / open schools / cases increase again. It's pointless and would do a lot of harm for no long-term gain.

Schools don't need to close. The education service needs redesigning, as a whole, to provide a service that can include social distancing, such as by way of blended learning.

They've had since March. Neither schools nor the Government have been bothered to do anything.

 

[Huntergreed]

Schools don't need to close. The education service needs redesigning, as a whole, to provide a service that can include social distancing, such as by way of blended learning.

They've had since March. Neither schools nor the Government have been bothered to do anything.

Why?

It would suppress the virus, but at what cost?

The cons far outweigh the pros.

 

[DB]

Why?

It would suppress the virus, but at what cost?

The cons far outweigh the pros.

Indeed, and it's just kicking the can down the road. The rate of spread might reduce a bit, but thr virus won't go away.

 

[Richard Scott]

Schools don't need to close. The education service needs redesigning, as a whole, to provide a service that can include social distancing, such as by way of blended learning.

They've had since March. Neither schools nor the Government have been bothered to do anything.

Forget blended learning, I can tell you from experience it doesn't work.

 

[Bantamzen]

Forget blended learning, I can tell you from experience it doesn't work.

Seconded, my 13 year old niece found blended learning very difficult & it has certainly set her back when she was doing very well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seconded, my 13 year old niece found blended learning very difficult & it has certainly set her back when she was doing very well.

What we had wasn't blended learning, it was school from home. Blended learning is, as the name implies, a split. You could do 1m distancing if kids were in say 2.5 days a week with extended homework for the rest of the time.

 

[Bantamzen]

What we had wasn't blended learning, it was school from home. Blended learning is, as the name implies, a split. You could do 1m distancing if kids were in say 2.5 days a week with extended homework for the rest of the time.

But it still involves kids being at least partially isolated. The education of children isn't just about learning, its about social interaction, team work, building relationships etc. That doesn't work so well stuck at the end of a broadband connection even for part of a week. We are literally depriving children of valuable skills they will need if we are ever to maintain a functioning society.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But it still involves kids being at least partially isolated. The education of children isn't just about learning, its about social interaction, team work, building relationships etc. That doesn't work so well stuck at the end of a broadband connection even for part of a week. We are literally depriving children of valuable skills they will need if we are ever to maintain a functioning society.

I disagree. 2.5 days a week should, if time was put into planning it properly[1], be enough to concentrate those things in. Schoolkids spend a lot of time sitting writing stuff in school, it is not one big utopia of interaction.

[1] I reiterate that both the Government and the schools have spectacularly failed our children in simply "hoping for the best" and not doing this - despite the teaching Unions having pushed for it in some areas.

 

[Huntergreed]

I disagree. 2.5 days a week should, if time was put into planning it properly[1], be enough to concentrate those things in. Schoolkids spend a lot of time sitting writing stuff in school, it is not one big utopia of interaction.

[1] I reiterate that both the Government and the schools have spectacularly failed our children in simply "hoping for the best" and not doing this - despite the teaching Unions having pushed for it in some areas.

I couldn’t disagree more.

It’s vital for so many reasons (let alone the mental wellbeing of our children) that they’re in school full time, and if that causes an uptick so be it. It’s time we started to see the bigger picture as a society rather than looking purely at this virus, which isn’t as bad as first thought it was.

 

[Bantamzen]

I disagree. 2.5 days a week should, if time was put into planning it properly[1], be enough to concentrate those things in. Schoolkids spend a lot of time sitting writing stuff in school, it is not one big utopia of interaction.

[1] I reiterate that both the Government and the schools have spectacularly failed our children in simply "hoping for the best" and not doing this - despite the teaching Unions having pushed for it in some areas.

Social interactions in schools aren't planned, they are organic. By mixing with other children & teachers they learn social skills.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Social interactions in schools aren't planned, they are organic. By mixing with other children & teachers they learn social skills.

And they still could, just for 2.5 days a week rather than 5.

 

[Richard Scott]

What we had wasn't blended learning, it was school from home. Blended learning is, as the name implies, a split. You could do 1m distancing if kids were in say 2.5 days a week with extended homework for the rest of the time.

I will say again, from experience blended learning doesn't work.

 

[birchesgreen]

Isolation is terrible for children, i am still saddened by how my 14yo nephew had changed when i saw him in August. Very withdrawn and quiet. Unfortunately i am able to recognise the signs of depression from personal experience. They must never close the schools completely again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I will say again, from experience blended learning doesn't work.

We will have to disagree.

Isolation is terrible for children, i am still saddened by how my 14yo nephew had changed when i saw him in August. Very withdrawn and quiet. Unfortunately i am able to recognise the signs of depression from personal experience. They must never close the schools completely again.

And one way to ensure they don't is to implement distancing by whatever means necessary.

The bubble concept is flawed because too many things bridge the bubbles.

 

[Bantamzen]

And they still could, just for 2.5 days a week rather than 5.

Except they wouldn't because you would effectively have cut their social network in half, along with all the distancing that would still be enforced on them. We need to let kids be kids, let them develop & grow without the paranoia-induced hysteria we are currently seeing. Stifling this growth is little short of abuse. And I'm being very serious here.

 

[DelayRepay]

The problem with blended learning is who looks after the online classes while the teacher is teaching the face to face classes? Presumably if you only have half the kids in school at once time, the teacher will have to teach each lesson twice.

So who is available to teach the online kids? It's fine setting them 'homework', but who do they ask if they get stuck or don't understand something? Who is going to spot the kid that needs a bit of extra help for some reason? Parents generally can't because they are not skilled teachers, and a lot of them will be trying to work themselves.

Blended learning might work slightly better for older kids, but I don't think it would work at all for primary school ages.

I just don't think this is a solution. It needs more teachers, and if we had more teachers we could probably get the same result (smaller classes) by using extra space or extending the school day.

 

[Huntergreed]

Except they wouldn't because you would effectively have cut their social network in half, along with all the distancing that would still be enforced on them. We need to let kids be kids, let them develop & grow without the paranoia-induced hysteria we are currently seeing. Stifling this growth is little short of abuse. And I'm being very serious here.

Agree completely

 

[trebor79]

It is and we just deal with that and learn to live with the virus. Eventually we'll have to. If we don't have educated children our country doesn't have a future and all of us suffer. We can't go down that road, children have lost too much time already and it cannot happen again.

Exactly. I'd agree with this evening the covid death rate was as high as was originally feared, rather than perhaps a tenth or less. Hiding behind the sofa for ever is not going to work long term.
Short term actions in March were perhaps necessary (I weakly supported at the time, but with the benefit of hindsight it was a huge mistake). There's absolutely no excuse for taking further short term unsustainable actions to counter what it is now clear is a long term, widespread but actually quite minor threat.
All we need to do is adapt the health service to cope with a potential large number of cases this winter, before it become just another endemic winter virus like flu.

 

[Bikeman78]

And they still could, just for 2.5 days a week rather than 5.

My kids are four and six. Distancing isn't an option.

My limited observations of older children on trains is that they wear masks but happily sit together in bays of 4.

 

[Richard Scott]

We will have to disagree.

We will and as one who works in education and tried it I can guarantee it's no substitute for those learning being in a room with the person teaching them. I'll admit it works for some but they are in the minority.