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the most over the top restrictions introduced

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Bletchleyite

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I think you're wrong on the lag. Incubation period is somewhere around (just under) a week, so we should be seeing effects of the rule of six now. The effect on hospital admissions lags by about 2-3 weeks, and deaths 3-4 weeks.
 
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takno

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I think you're wrong on the lag. Incubation period is somewhere around (just under) a week, so we should be seeing effects of the rule of six now. The effect on hospital admissions lags by about 2-3 weeks, and deaths 3-4 weeks.
A week, plus a day to decide it's actually the lurgy, plus the delay in getting a test result. Probably ten days overall. And it will have taken a couple of days to get their heads around what the limitations even were.
 

trebor79

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The problem is that if you don't want exponential growth, it's been proven that the restrictions (compulsory or voluntary as they may be) need to be slightly tighter than the ones you have now. It's like a switch - pass R=1 and we WILL end up in a mess. It's just a question of how quickly.
I don't think it's as simple as that. If R goes above 1, yet cases will rise. But even if you do nothing, R will not stay above 1 forever. You don't necessarily end up in a mess if you can prevent the virus reaching large numbers of those who will end up seriously ill from it. The focus should be upon preventing an overwhelmed and/or non-functioning NHS. That didn't happen the first time around and I see no sign of it being an aim this time around. They are still attempting to use blunt instruments to solve a nuanced problem. The fact there is a huge disagreement within government about how far and how fast to go with the blunt instruments illustrates they are considering the wrong set of choices.

Do what you've always done and you'll get what you've always got. Time to try something else and more radical than simply shutting down large portions of the economy and limiting peoples personal freedoms.
The hysterical brigade are going along wit this.
New restrictions Monday > Cases still rising on Wednesday > Demands for more restrictions on Thursday > Government accedes by the weekend.
Nobody is mentioning that there is around a two to three week lag at least before any of this takes effect.

A further downside to this is that, when cases DO fall, we have no idea which restriction actually ehlped, so we stick with all of them.

It is a complete joke and anyone with a modicum of intelligence and critical thinking abaility should be completely bemused by it.


We cannot keep the country shut down. The consequences of that will be far more destructive than this virus.

A balance has to be struck. Currently it's not being.
Agree
I think you're wrong on the lag. Incubation period is somewhere around (just under) a week, so we should be seeing effects of the rule of six now. The effect on hospital admissions lags by about 2-3 weeks, and deaths 3-4 weeks.
Infections don't seem to be rising so fast now, perhaps we are starting to see that effect?
 

Richard Scott

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I think you're wrong on the lag. Incubation period is somewhere around (just under) a week, so we should be seeing effects of the rule of six now. The effect on hospital admissions lags by about 2-3 weeks, and deaths 3-4 weeks.
Ok, shall we revisit this in 3-4 weeks and see what the numbers are doing then?
 

DelayRepay

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Thought-terminating clichés are not a substitute for defending your argument.

I wasn't really having an argument. The original point was a poster quoting an MP on Twitter, who had suggested amongst other things that we should open schools six days a week to allow there to be fewer pupils in a classroom at any one time. My point was that the same result could be achieved by using additional buildings (not just mobile classrooms, but church halls etc). But as I acknowledged, extra space, either through more buildings or a six day week, would not help because there are not enough teachers.

Would you like my view on the same MP's suggestion that we should all wear masks in pubs and drink through straws?
 

Bikeman78

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You're being distracted by facts! Project Fear relies on scary graphs and talk of large numbers. You mustn't, whatever you do, mention that nearly 1700 people die every day, day in, day out. Otherwise people might ask why we're crippling the country over 11 deaths a day.
To put it another way, 307,000 people have died in the UK since the first lockdown started.
 

Freightmaster

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You're being distracted by facts! Project Fear relies on scary graphs and talk of large numbers. You mustn't, whatever you do, mention that nearly 1700 people die every day, day in, day out. Otherwise people might ask why we're crippling the country over 11 deaths a day.
How about showing people this 'non-scary' graph for a sense of proportion?

5n3cXjDy.jpg








MARK
 

Huntergreed

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My university is working on the basis of:

Mandated Masks

3m Social Distancing

Deep Cleaning Every Room After Use

Seems just a little overkill.
 

BJames

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My university is working on the basis of:

Mandated Masks

3m Social Distancing

Deep Cleaning Every Room After Use

Seems just a little overkill.
Did you mean 2 metres or are they actually going one step further??

Other than that we've got the same, as well as "you have to face forwards at all times in the room until you leave, which you must do in a socially distanced manner". Most lecturers have decided to put their seminars online when they really should be in person, so that we can actually see each other without masks on, and because they've been told to cut about 10 minutes from each in-person seminar/workshop for cleaning at the end..
 

Huntergreed

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Did you mean 2 metres or are they actually going one step further??

Other than that we've got the same, as well as "you have to face forwards at all times in the room until you leave, which you must do in a socially distanced manner". Most lecturers have decided to put their seminars online when they really should be in person, so that we can actually see each other without masks on, and because they've been told to cut about 10 minutes from each in-person seminar/workshop for cleaning at the end..
No, I genuinely mean 3 metres, the management decided it was safer and it would contribute towards the national elimination strategy in Scotland (Which I disagree with in principle, but that's not for this thread).

It means the maximum we can have in a room is around 4-5 and means basically everything will be online. The rule for us is that we must leave 30 minutes for deep cleaning after each room has been used, windows and doors must be left fully open, masks must be worn at all times (which given we're a music school, can often be difficult!)
 

BJames

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No, I genuinely mean 3 metres, the management decided it was safer and it would contribute towards the national elimination strategy in Scotland (Which I disagree with in principle, but that's not for this thread).

It means the maximum we can have in a room is around 4-5 and means basically everything will be online. The rule for us is that we must leave 30 minutes for deep cleaning after each room has been used, windows and doors must be left fully open, masks must be worn at all times (which given we're a music school, can often be difficult!)
Ok. That definitely fits with the most over the top restrictions introduced.

3 metres is just totally unnecessary and you may as well not come onto campus at all if they're going to do that. At 3 metres you need to use the largest lecture theatre to just fit a small group of students in. How ridiculous.

30 minutes for deep cleaning every time also seems incredibly excessive.
 

MattA7

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Did you mean 2 metres or are they actually going one step further??

Other than that we've got the same, as well as "you have to face forwards at all times in the room until you leave, which you must do in a socially distanced manner". Most lecturers have decided to put their seminars online when they really should be in person, so that we can actually see each other without masks on, and because they've been told to cut about 10 minutes from each in-person seminar/workshop for cleaning at the end..

this is exactly why i withdrew my college application this year and have decided to wait until next year. Due to my Asperger’s syndrome starting college would have been stressful under normal conditions let alone with these Shenanigans going on. I also can’t see how a college could implement a 3m (or 10 feet for normal people) distancing rule how big are the classrooms.

living in Scotland this so called elimination strategy is frightening especially as scientists said even with the hypothetical vaccine (if there ever is one) the virus will never go away as 1. It will likely be seasonal
2. It is possibly zoonotic

is not like Smallpox which was eradicated and polio, diphtheria, measles etc which eradication by vaccine is certainly possible and have eradicating programs underway by WHO as far as I know.

I also would not be surprised if such vaccine was made compulsory especially how dictatorial the government has become In recent months
 

Richard Scott

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No, I genuinely mean 3 metres, the management decided it was safer and it would contribute towards the national elimination strategy in Scotland (Which I disagree with in principle, but that's not for this thread).

It means the maximum we can have in a room is around 4-5 and means basically everything will be online. The rule for us is that we must leave 30 minutes for deep cleaning after each room has been used, windows and doors must be left fully open, masks must be worn at all times (which given we're a music school, can often be difficult!)
Thought those who worked in universities were intelligent people, that's that disproved then!
 

takno

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University administrators are increasingly like bureaucrats in any field!
Mate is a professor and head of department in a Russell Group uni. He's currently trying to figure out how he's supposed to follow the latest requirement to wash his hands at least every 30 minutes while he's in the building. He gave up on asking why months ago
 

Richard Scott

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That’s pretty sobering. This is just the sort of thing which should be being highlighted, to put things in perspective.
More deaths by suicides and cancer than virus related. I know all suicides and cancers are not due to restrictions but bet some are and also that there are more additional deaths from these causes than virus related deaths.
 

LAX54

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Ok. That definitely fits with the most over the top restrictions introduced.

3 metres is just totally unnecessary and you may as well not come onto campus at all if they're going to do that. At 3 metres you need to use the largest lecture theatre to just fit a small group of students in. How ridiculous.

30 minutes for deep cleaning every time also seems incredibly excessive.

Even more so, when you take into account that the WHO recommended keeping a distance of 1m if you will be in such contact for 15 mins or more
 

Dent

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How about showing people this 'non-scary' graph for a sense of proportion?

5n3cXjDy.jpg








MARK
What is the source for this?

"Climate Change" is a rather doubtful attribution for cause of death. Also the use of the vague term "Typical" in the title is a little curious, as is the lack of any actual numbers.
 

duncanp

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And now the government is actively considering refusing to rule out banning students from returning home during the Christmas holidays.


How the hell do you enforce this rule, especially for students who live off the main campus in private rented accommodation.

Matt Hancock has refused to rule out banning students from returning home at Christmas, to limit the spread of coronavirus outbreaks.

The health secretary was responding to a question about concerns that students could be spreading Covid-19, amid numerous university-based outbreaks.

At Glasgow University 120 students have tested positive for Covid-19 and are among 600 self-isolating there.

Academics had warned against the mass movement of the UK's million students.

The University and College Union had called for students to be taught wholly online, from home until Christmas, ahead of the start of term, but ministers advised some face-to-face learning was key to students' mental health.

This has meant up to a million students have returned to their university premises or are commuting there regularly.

  • In a response to a question on BBC Radio 4's Today Programme about whether students would be asked to stay in their university towns at Christmas, Mr Hancock said he had "learned not to rule things out".

"I don't want to have a situation like that and I very much hope we can avoid it.

"We have said throughout that our goal is to suppress the virus, whilst protecting the economy and protecting education.

"And protecting people in education whether it's school or university is obviously critical as is protecting the economy."

He added: "In terms of universities, we are working very closely with them to try to make sure the students are safe, but that they can also get their education."

"I've learned not to rule things out and one of the challenges that we have is how to make sure people are as safe as possible."

But he added: "This is not our goal, I don't want to leave you with the expectation - but we have to work on all contingencies at the moment."

It comes after a growing number of outbreaks on university campuses, with students isolating in their residential groups at Glasgow, Dundee and Liverpool.

Boris Johnson has said universities have been given a "clear request not to send students home in the event of an outbreak, so as to avoid spreading the virus across the country".

Socialising
University students are being urged not to hold parties in their halls of residence under the rule of six, and to avoid socialising in places that do not have Covid-19 protections in place.

Many universities are warning students they face fines or even having their courses terminated if they do not follow the regulations.

Universities have taken extensive measures in their buildings to minimise risks on campuses and many lectures are already being taught online, but there is less control over what takes place off university premises.

But minutes of a recent meeting of the government's scientific advisory group on emergencies, suggest ministers were aware of the risks of bringing students back to university and sending them home at the end of term.

The minutes of the 1 September meeting said: "Sage noted that risks of larger outbreaks spilling over from HE institutions are more likely to occur towards the end of the academic term, coinciding with Christmas and New Year period when students return home.

"This could pose risk to both local communities and families, and will require national oversight, monitoring and decision-making."

UCU general secretary Jo Grady has said the evidence was clear that online learning should be the default position and that government should be working to prevent outbreaks not creating conditions for them.

She said:" students and their parents will be rightly worried about being locked down in an unfamiliar area over Christmas.

"Locking students down at Christmas is based on a flawed boarding school vision of university that ignores the fact thousands of students and staff commute every day around the UK to and from university.

"Threatening to lock students up over the festive period is not the solution."

She also urged the government to act now, before thousands more students move onto campuses this weekend.

It was completely irresponsible to let students go back to university when outbreaks have already started, she added.

'Number one priority'
University leaders say they have working hard for months to ensure students can return to their campuses safely.

"Ensuring the health, safety and wellbeing of students, staff and local communities in the new academic year is the number one priority for universities," said a Universities UK spokeswoman.

UUK said institutions were taking action to encourage responsible student behaviour, would continue to follow the latest government and public health advice, and were working in partnership with local authorities and public health bodies "to ensure that effective and rapid outbreak response plans are in place and clearly understood".
 

BJames

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And now the government is actively considering refusing to rule out banning students from returning home during the Christmas holidays.


How the hell do you enforce this rule, especially for students who live off the main campus in private rented accommodation.
Quite simply, you don't. You can try and restrict to "essential travel only" but I shall be returning home for Christmas regardless of what the government has to say.
 

Huntergreed

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Quite simply, you don't. You can try and restrict to "essential travel only" but I shall be returning home for Christmas regardless of what the government has to say.
And myself. If it means a fine, so be it.
 

RomeoCharlie71

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And now the government is actively considering refusing to rule out banning students from returning home during the Christmas holidays.


How the hell do you enforce this rule, especially for students who live off the main campus in private rented accommodation.
Students who've moved away can't even go home to visit their parents in Scotland, never mind stay with them for four weeks.

Was asked last night whether students in halls and flats can go back to parents’ homes. To clarify, they are a separate household. There are exceptions, eg caring responsibilities, but the law is clear: they can’t meet indoors with another household – even mum and dad. Sorry.
 

duncanp

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And myself. If it means a fine, so be it.

And if you are fined for the "crime" of wanting to see your family at Christmas, remind Ms Sturgeon/ Mr Johnson that there are national and local elections in May next year, and that you are old enough to vote.

Even Ebeneezer Scrooge allowed Bob Cratchit time off on Christmas Day to see his family.
 

trebor79

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And now the government is actively considering refusing to rule out banning students from returning home during the Christmas holidays.

How the hell do you enforce this rule, especially for students who live off the main campus in private rented accommodation.
I don't see how you could possibly enforce it.
"Are you a student going home?"
"No"

And presumably they'd only be able to attempt enforcement on public transport, unless they start stopping cars on the motorways?

Just more imbecilic nonsense from the absolute shower in Westminster.
 

island

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And now the government is actively considering refusing to rule out banning students from returning home during the Christmas holidays.


How the hell do you enforce this rule, especially for students who live off the main campus in private rented accommodation.
Same way as everything’s being enforced to date, by public shaming and snitching busybodies.

Reports this morning say two workers in the Bolton area were issued with £1,000 FPNs after returning, respectively, from Spain and the Netherlands, going back to work on Monday, and being dobbed in by their colleagues.
 

rumoto

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Quite simply, you don't. You can try and restrict to "essential travel only" but I shall be returning home for Christmas regardless of what the government has to say.


I think I have found how they would implement it:


https://twitter.com/jasonleitch/status/1309114421801779201

Was asked last night whether students in halls and flats can go back to parents’ homes. To clarify, they are a separate household. There are exceptions, eg caring responsibilities, but the law is clear: they can’t meet indoors with another household – even mum and dad. Sorry.



This tweet of the National Clinical Director of the Scottish Government has the key of it (remembering that in Scotland indoor visits between households are banned since yesterday); if the UK Government decides to adopt this household restriction for England, they may use it to have a legal basis to justify the restrictions to students (not only in Christmas, but at any time during the length of this restriction).

This rule may not apply to students who live alone, who can form an extended household with the members of a different household.
 
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