The proposed Northern Ireland to Scotland tunnel - it is now confirmed will not be built

[ALEMASTER]

I wonder what will get completed first a rail tunnel to Northern Ireland or completion of the eastern leg of HS2!

Just imagine with both, HS2 trains could run London to Belfast via Leeds, Carlisle, Stanraer and Larne! Obviously with comedy routing via the Settle-Carlisle line!

 

[XAM2175]

Because main line railways on the island are laid to a wider track gauge than those on mainland Britain. Sure, the technology exists for variable gauge passenger trains - but would it be worth using, given the low demand?

The gauge. Many broad gauge lines were changed in a weekend in the 1800s, changing either the larne-belfast, or the entire system isn't out of realms of possible. Heck, they might find second hand rolling stock cheaper, and pays for the work.

The railways throughout Ireland are a different gauge to those in Great Britain. None of the journalists have pointed this out, and as journalists nowadays only repeat what they have been told, I presume none of the scheme initial proponents realise this either.
- The railway radiating from Dublin is not going to change their gauge for the benefit of a railway from London to Belfast.

We all know that dual-gauge track is a thing, right? This is by far and away the smallest of the problems associated with the proposal.

not without a long detour around the northern end of Beaufort’s Dyke, a deep trench in the Irish Sea where more than a million tonnes of surplus munitions, including chemical weapons, has been dumped by the MoD. The Dyke has also been used to dump nuclear waste.

It's worth noting that the munitions aren't just in the Dyke - they're all around it. The stuff was just dumped overboard by crews who figured they were somewhere near the right place.

Protocol impact will be fixed one way or the other by time this opens.. no-one wants the current delays to prevail, they will improve.

Indeed - as alluded to above, Irish re-unification and Scottish independence within the European Customs Union will resolve them nicely. It's very gracious of the Minister for the Union to want to contribute such a vast piece of infrastructure to linking two non-UK countries.

 

[telstarbox]

The most effective way to improve transport connectivity between N Ireland and the rest of the UK would be to cancel the £26 each way Air Passenger Duty on air services between the two. It's quite a significant part of the overall price. It was done long ago for plane flights to the Scottish Highlands & Islands.

But the government recently said that doing so was "Not value for money". See here : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49206460 . Quite why a tax reduction of a few million pounds per year is not value for money, but a £50bn tunnel connecting two relatively minor points is, somehow passes all comprehension.

That would make sense, although is there evidence that the current air fares are depressing demand on GB - NI routes? Do other 'dispersed' countries like Spain charge internal APD for their Majorcan citizens?

I guess the counter argument is that Belfast has universities, major hospitals, cultural centres etc which you don't get on Barra or Lewis.

(Also I was surprised that Belfast to New York was a viable air route!)

 

[AlterEgo]

Just another rehashing of a very old plan every time the Tories try to pretend the Irish Unionists matter. They’re a bit wounded by the NI Protocol. Won’t happen. Pure fiction.

 

[XAM2175]

(Also I was surprised that Belfast to New York was a viable air route!)

Amusingly, flights from Northern Ireland to the United States are exempt from Air Passenger Duty:

Rates for Air Passenger Duty

Check which rates of Air Passenger Duty you need to pay if you’re a plane operator, and how to fill in your return to HMRC.

www.gov.uk

 

[Elwyn]

That would make sense, although is there evidence that the current air fares are depressing demand on GB - NI routes? Do other 'dispersed' countries like Spain charge internal APD for their Majorcan citizens?

I guess the counter argument is that Belfast has universities, major hospitals, cultural centres etc which you don't get on Barra or Lewis.

(Also I was surprised that Belfast to New York was a viable air route!)

I am not sure the Air Passenger Duty between NI and the rest of the UK is £26 each way. Covid excepted, I regularly fly between Belfast and Edinburgh and it’s routine to get a return for £50 or even less. If the APD alone were £52 return, Easyjet are giving me free flights. And I doubt they are doing that.

Belfast to New York was only ever just a viable route. A lot of US tourists used it in the summer months as did folk from Northern Ireland and Donegal going to the States. Latterly it was usually cancelled January – March each year as it wasn’t very busy. It did OK the rest of the year but the fares were always uncompetitive because for a long time flights from Dublin had a much lower rate of APD. It appealed to folk who didn’t want to have to travel to and from Dublin, but for someone with a family touring the whole of Ireland , they’d just choose the cheaper Dublin flight.

 

[XAM2175]

I am not sure the Air Passenger Duty between NI and the rest of the UK is £26 each way. Covid excepted, I regularly fly between Belfast and Edinburgh and it’s routine to get a return for £50 or even less. If the APD alone were £52 return, Easyjet are giving me free flights. And I doubt they are doing that.

APD from NI to GB and vice-versa is in 'Band A' and is:
£13 each way at the reduced rate (for travel in the lowest class of travel available on the plane for seat pitches less than 1.016 metres (40 inches))
£26 each way at the standard rate (for travel in any other class of travel or where the seat pitch is more than 1.016 metres (40 inches))
£78 each way at the higher rate (for travel in planes of 20 tonnes or more equipped to carry fewer than 19 passengers)

Easyjet passengers will be paying the reduced rate.

 

[Glenn1969]

I thought this was one of Boris Johnson's ideas for how to build back better out of the pandemic. And isn't particularly wanted even by Scottish politicians

 

[Journeyman]

Desperate attempt to keep the Union together, now Brexit has pretty much destroyed it.

 

[weastebusdepot]

- When some years ago there was still a ship to Stranraer and a connecting train, I chanced to be at one of the intermediate stations along the line when the connecting train to Glasgow passed through. 2-car 156. About 6 passengers. The railway lost it a generation or more ago.

That situation hasn't changed, and if anything it got worse now there are no ships from Stranraer. The station is a long walk from the rest of the town, and Barrhill station is a long walk from any houses.

With the Girvan to Stranraer line being all manual tokens and multiple signal boxes that have to be constantly staffed, plus the crew on every train, it's generally thought that there are more people employed to make the trains run on that line than there are people actually travelling on them.

 

[AlterEgo]

Amusingly, flights from Northern Ireland to the United States are exempt from Air Passenger Duty:

Rates for Air Passenger Duty

Check which rates of Air Passenger Duty you need to pay if you’re a plane operator, and how to fill in your return to HMRC.

www.gov.uk

If there were any, that is. There currently aren’t.

I am not sure the Air Passenger Duty between NI and the rest of the UK is £26 each way. Covid excepted, I regularly fly between Belfast and Edinburgh and it’s routine to get a return for £50 or even less. If the APD alone were £52 return, Easyjet are giving me free flights. And I doubt they are doing that.

Belfast to New York was only ever just a viable route. A lot of US tourists used it in the summer months as did folk from Northern Ireland and Donegal going to the States. Latterly it was usually cancelled January – March each year as it wasn’t very busy. It did OK the rest of the year but the fares were always uncompetitive because for a long time flights from Dublin had a much lower rate of APD. It appealed to folk who didn’t want to have to travel to and from Dublin, but for someone with a family touring the whole of Ireland , they’d just choose the cheaper Dublin flight.

APD from Northern Ireland to Britain is £13 in economy class, one way.

 

[Bevan Price]

Another problem is that there are fringe nutters (on both sides) who won't recognise the Good Friday peace agreement, and who are liable to "target" things that attract attention when attacked...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

A great sound bite to be seen to do some leveling up and keeping the union together but so many other more pressing projects to spend money on so it is not going to happen.

 

[Recessio]

The big question is how bionic duckweed will be implemented into the solution?

 

[AndyHA]

Has 01st April arrived early this year ?

 

[Essexman]

That situation hasn't changed, and if anything it got worse now there are no ships from Stranraer. The station is a long walk from the rest of the town, and Barrhill station is a long walk from any houses.

With the Girvan to Stranraer line being all manual tokens and multiple signal boxes that have to be constantly staffed, plus the crew on every train, it's generally thought that there are more people employed to make the trains run on that line than there are people actually travelling on them.

Not really related to this non-starter of an idea to build a tunnel, what happened to the plans to develop the area around Stranraer station or build a new one closer to the town?

 

[BayPaul]

As a conventional tunnel would be too deep, and a bridge too tall ( disregarding the problems with supports standing in an ammunition dump ) the solution may be a floating tunnel. Perhaps like this proposed Norwegian Floating Tunnel
The conditions in the Irish sea are very different - it would need to be much longer, and face much more serious underwater currents. ( and probably more submarines )

The Royal Navy don't exactly have the best record for not crashing into things with their subs in the northern Irish Sea. It only takes one dink...

 

[MadCommuter]

As transport is devolved in Scotland, why is Westminster pushing such an idea in the first place?

 

[paul1609]

Given the relatively small market size of the whole of the Island of ireland and the distances involved from the bridge head. Any fixed link would be road only I imagine.

 

[norbitonflyer]

As with previous projects (Channel Tunnel, Crossrail), the Brits are making the mistake of thinking of this project as a tunnel into which a railway will be put, when it should be seen, as the French did with LGV Nord, as a whole new railway which happens to include a tunnel. The distance from Carlisle to Belfast is about 150 miles - 50% longer than HS2 Phase 1. Probably fewer "nimbys", but more difficult terrain to push a high speed link through(A more holistic approach might be to have a three-way junction somewhere near New Cumnock, with a spur to Glasgow, to allow Glasgow-Belfast traffic to benefit from the link as well (and relieve the route over Beattock).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As transport is devolved in Scotland, why is Westminster pushing such an idea in the first place?

Cross-border links are still with the UK government.

 

[paul1609]

As with previous projects (Channel Tunnel, Crossrail), the Brits are making the mistake of thinking of this project as a tunnel into which a railway will be put, when it should be seen, as the French did with LGV Nord, as a whole new railway which happens to include a tunnel. The distance from Carlisle to Belfast is about 150 miles - 50% longer than HS2 Phase 1. Probably fewer "nimbys", but more difficult terrain to push a high speed link through(A more holistic approach might be to have a three-way junction somewhere near New Cumnock, with a spur to Glasgow, to allow Glasgow-Belfast traffic to benefit from the link as well (and relieve the route over Beattock).

Upgrade the existing railway from Carlisle to just short of Dumfries, its pretty straight and not overburdened with traffic. In the Arran area build a new link to the WCML via the Old Solway Viaduct line formation giving a connection to Glasgow and Edinburgh. Thats cut your new railway to the tunnel to 70 miles about the same as HS1.

 

[zwk500]

Given the relatively small market size of the whole of the Island of ireland and the distances involved from the bridge head. Any fixed link would be road only I imagine.

First question is always 'what is the market?' - In this case, it's overwhelmingly London-Dublin.
Second question then is 'how do we serve it?' - The most sensible route is via Holyhead. Therefore, given the distance required and problems of ventilation and evacuation encountered, any fixed link will be an electric rail tunnel.

This Scotland-NI link is a classic case of Boris making a lot of noise. He did it about the Thames Estuary Airport and the Garden Bridge before. I'd expect this project to go exactly the same way as those 2: lots of taxpayer's money wasted engaging consultancies to contemplate a chocolate teapot, but absolutely no chance of physical evidence ever appearing on the ground. Of the major projects to be delivered with involvement by Boris's administration at City Hall, the Bike hire scheme had all the groundwork done by a certain Mr Livingstone, Crossrail has been under development in various forms since well before Boris got given his first job, and the New Routemaster is a like-for-like bus replacement (the defining feature of the upgrade, the rear platform, being very rarely used). The Olympics also had all the heavy lifting done by Livingstone or the national govt.

 

[paul1609]

The Royal Navy don't exactly have the best record for not crashing into things with their subs in the northern Irish Sea. It only takes one dink...

Thats the Royal Navy submariners branch they're not part of the real Royal Navy.

 

[Darandio]

Thats the Royal Navy submariners branch they're not part of the real Royal Navy.

Huh? It seems to me like you just said the Royal Navy Submarine Service isn't part of the Royal Navy??

 

[nr758123]

Has 01st April arrived early this year ?

1st April arrives early every year.

 

[ExRes]

Panic over, I understand that 101000 cod have already signed an online petition to stop any building through their homes, they're still trawling for more of course

 

[JonasB]

Well before Brexit it would have been useful for the republic as well but now with those non tariff barriers the republic is keen to avoid freight via the UK, so a tunnel costing billions for a population of 1.9 million, Well if that's justified then a new High speed line between Exeter and Plymouth to replace Dawlish is justified as well!

It could be used for corridor freight trains from Ireland to Calais though, trains that might be faster than the ferries. So it would not be completly useless even after Brexit.

 

[Gloster]

Panic over, I understand that 101000 cod have already signed an online petition to stop any building through their homes, they're still trawling for more of course

But now they are British cod, so it is important that we keep them happier.

 

[py_megapixel]

In a time when it's looking like rail will be more short of funds than ever, do we really need a multi-billion-pound white elephant?

There are enough places in the UK already which would benefit from electrification, reopening, rolling stock renewal, capacity increase, etc.