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Ticket gate-dodging with a valid ticket

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Ethano92

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Odd question I know, but I'm interested as to what would happen if you jumped the barrier and were stopped by staff who then found you in possession of a valid ticket. In that case have you actually done anything wrong apart from looking suspicious? Would response vary from ticket inspectors, station staff and agency staff?

More specifically, one of my friends was unaware her off peak, any route permitted ticket allowed her to break her journey and so jumped the barriers at a station part-way along her return. When stopped by staff (I don't know what type) they took her (valid) ticket and told her to buy another to "teach her a lesson". I'm not saying anyone's in the wrong, I'm just wondering if this was fair. I understand she had the intention to potentially fare-dodge, but does this actually allow them to confiscate a valid ticket? I wouldn't be surprised if there is some kind of by-law or policy somebody knows about though.
 
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yorkie

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More specifically, one of my friends was unaware her off peak, any route permitted ticket allowed her to break her journey and so jumped the barriers at a station part-way along her return. When stopped by staff (I don't know what type) they took her (valid) ticket and told her to buy another to "teach her a lesson". I'm not saying anyone's in the wrong, I'm just wondering if this was fair. I understand she had the intention to potentially fare-dodge, but does this actually allow them to confiscate a valid ticket? I wouldn't be surprised if there is some kind of by-law or policy somebody knows about though.
Both in the wrong: the passenger broke railway Byelaws but the TOC staff denied legitimate continuing use of the ticket held.

I don't think there can be such a concept as "intention to potentially fare dodge" by using a ticket the customer believed to be invalid but was, in fact, valid.


where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station is via a manned or an automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the barrier in the correct manner
 

Nottingham59

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To answer your question, confiscating a valid ticket and forcing the purchase of a replacement wasn't fair. In my book it's close to extortion.
 

island

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It’s not necessarily an offence in and of itself to “try to fare dodge” when you in fact have a valid ticket. But it’s a violation of byelaw 9 (I think) to pass through (or over, under, ...) a ticket gate otherwise than in the correct manner.

Very technically, a ticket is the property of the railway and they can withdraw it if they want to, but removal of the physical ticket does not extinguish any contract between the railway and the passenger.

One might say that two wrongs don’t make a right, but on the other hand, the passenger could have been prosecuted.
 

crablab

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Very technically, a ticket is the property of the railway and they can withdraw it if they want to, but removal of the physical ticket does not extinguish any contract between the railway and the passenger.

That would be interesting. If this is in the CoC then there could be no chargeback right, even if the service had not been rendered. This would, however, be considered a "restrictive covenant" and therefore in order for the railway to defend a G&S chargeback for non provision of service on the basis that they could withdraw the ticket at any time, they would have to show that the restrictive term was clearly displayed at the POS (the standard for this is on a sign and printed on the invoice/receipt).

So I think the passenger would be entitled to a Mastercard chargeback in this case, as I'm not aware that such restrictive terms are explicitly advertised.
 

clagmonster

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As already stated, the passenger was in the wrong and could in theory be prosecuted, although it would seem petty for the train operating company to do so in such an instance.

However, the staff were also in the wrong. The National Rail Conditions of Travel state:
"18.2. If for any reason your Ticket is invalid, Train Company staff may withdraw it unless it is held on an electronic device or payment card. Where your Ticket is withdrawn you will be given a receipt"

Assuming that the ticket was indeed valid, which seems to be undisputed, then contractually the staff did not have the right to withdraw the ticket. Even if they did, they would still have had to issue a receipt.

Your friend could attempt to recover the cost of the second fare paid. However, this would seem difficult to do without drawing further attention to the byelaw offence of misusing the ticket barriers, so I would be tempted to draw a line under the matter at this stage. What action is taken, if any, if of course entirely up to your friend.
 

crablab

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Assuming that the ticket was indeed valid, which seems to be undisputed, then contractually the staff did not have the right to withdraw the ticket. Even if they did, they would still have had to issue a receipt.

This makes more sense to me :) Is there a source, just out of interest?
 

matt_world2004

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I thought the penalty for jumping the barrier at a station was ejection from the station in the cases of a valid ticket
 

yorkie

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I thought the penalty for jumping the barrier at a station was ejection from the station in the cases of a valid ticket
Do you have a source for this? What do you mean by "the penalty"; are you referring to the policy of a particular organisation?
 

matt_world2004

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Do you have a source for this? What do you mean by "the penalty"; are you referring to the policy of a particular organisation?
Section 24 subsection 2 of the railway bylaws

removal of persons:
  1. any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these byelaws shall leave the railway immediately if asked to do so by an authorised person
  2. any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is in addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these byelaws
  3. no person shall fail to carry out the instructions of an authorised person acting in accordance with powers given by these byelaws or any other enactment
  1. in exercising powers conferred by Byelaws 24(2)(i) and 24(2)(ii) the authorised person shall state the nature of the breach of any of these byelaws in general terms prior to exercising the power conferred upon him
 

yorkie

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If a valid ticket was held, I do not think the TOC can ignore their contractual obligations.

I don't think what you quoted really covers a case of someone trying to break their journey, not realising they are allowed to do so, and not using a ticket barrier in the correct manner in order to do so.

Does a strict and nonsensical interpretation of Railway Byelaws override contract and consumer law for such an incident? I don't think so, though I am not a lawyer.

It would make a very interesting legal case, but I do not think the rail industry would want to take the risk of losing...
 

clagmonster

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Section 24 subsection 2 of the railway bylaws

  1. in exercising powers conferred by Byelaws 24(2)(i) and 24(2)(ii) the authorised person shall state the nature of the breach of any of these byelaws in general terms prior to exercising the power conferred upon him
This could equally be dealt with by prosecution through byelaw 24 (1). Given misuse of a ticket barrier whilst actually holding a valid ticket must surely be comparatively rare, I can't imagine any TOC actually has a policy as to what action to take in these circumstances.

I think I am in agreement with Yorkie that this is frankly a ridiculous case. No legal justification for the second ticket - I personally think I would treat it as a sort of unofficial out of court settlement.
 

Nottingham59

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I notice the byelaw actually says: "... no person shall enter or leave the station, except with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the barrier in the correct manner." As the OP's friend had not left the station by the time she was stopped, had the byelaw actually been broken?
 

clagmonster

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I notice the byelaw actually says: "... no person shall enter or leave the station, except with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the barrier in the correct manner." As the OP's friend had not left the station by the time she was stopped, had the byelaw actually been broken?
Byelaw 24 (5) states:
"(5) Attempts Any person who attempts to breach any of the Byelaws numbered 9, 10, 11, 13(1), 20(2) and 21 shall be liable to the same penalty as given above for breach of that Byelaw."

I would say this is a clear attempt to leave the station, so the fact the the passenger has not actually left at that point is not a defence.
 

WesternLancer

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Wasn't the case of the brazilian guy who jumped the underground barrier, post underground terrorist bombings, one where it resulted in a sequence of events where he was taken for a terrorist and he got shot dead?
Very much worst case scenario tragedy of course.
 

Nottingham59

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Off topic, but he didn't jump the barrier: Jean Charles de Menezes
walked through completely normally, using his Oyster card to pay. It was the police marksmen trying to catch up with him who jumped the barrier.
 

WesternLancer

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Off topic, but he didn't jump the barrier: Jean Charles de Menezes
walked through completely normally, using his Oyster card to pay. It was the police marksmen trying to catch up with him who jumped the barrier.
Ah, thanks for correction. I bet original media reports speculated / said that and it shows how that sticks in your mind,even when wrong.
 

Ethano92

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Thanks all, really interesting to read.

It doesn't surprise me there was a byelaw broken, so she was partly in the wrong. With the purchase of the ticket meaning the TOC has to fulfill their contractual obligation, does that mean the staff member was acting unprofessionally? I was expecting some regulation would come up defending their behaviour.
 

317666

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It's funny this has popped up, I'm a member of gateline staff and see people jump/force the barriers with a valid ticket more often than you'd think - most recently yesterday! I've never confiscated a valid ticket because of it though, a quick word with the person in question is usually sufficient.
 

infobleep

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It's funny this has popped up, I'm a member of gateline staff and see people jump/force the barriers with a valid ticket more often than you'd think - most recently yesterday! I've never confiscated a valid ticket because of it though, a quick word with the person in question is usually sufficient.
Is it always due to people thinking their ticket isn't valid?
 

miami

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Maybe it us just wrong to jump the barriers full stop, regardless of the validity of the ticket.

If you have a valid ticket and staff are keeping you hostage on the station by refusing to let you leave?

How about an abandoned barrier with no staff around?
 

miami

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If you agree there are some situations where "jumping the barrier" is OK, then it's a question of was it acceptable in this specific situation.

Personally I'd like to see the entire bylaw (and indeed most railway bylaws) struck down, there is a massive disparity in power between the railway and the passenger, where rule breaking by the passenger is treated far more harshly than rule breaking by the people who actually make the rules, both relatively and absolutely.

A supermarket has no right to detain me leaving the supermarket if they suspect I have stolen something, why should the railway?
 

Vespa

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It would have been better all round to speak to a member of staff BEFORE leaving the platform if it's ok to break a journey, and when you're expected back at the station go to the same staff to let you back in.
 

Andy Pacer

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If you agree there are some situations where "jumping the barrier" is OK, then it's a question of was it acceptable in this specific situation.

Personally I'd like to see the entire bylaw (and indeed most railway bylaws) struck down, there is a massive disparity in power between the railway and the passenger, where rule breaking by the passenger is treated far more harshly than rule breaking by the people who actually make the rules, both relatively and absolutely.

A supermarket has no right to detain me leaving the supermarket if they suspect I have stolen something, why should the railway?
I see where you're coming from, but it just seems extreme to literally jump it. Is there a liklihood a passenger would be held hostage? Agree if a gateline is unattended but even then I would expect there to be a staff member around somewhere.
 
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