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Ticket machine interface design

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AngusH

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Campaigning to retain ticket machines at stations seems exactly the kind of thing that almost any MP would agree to support.
Complete that with a picture of Doris Smith (95) who buys a return ticket once a week with cash and the MP standing next to her assisting her to put her money in the machine.

I suspect it may be more difficult than expected to get rid of them.
 
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Wallsendmag

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Campaigning to retain ticket machines at stations seems exactly the kind of thing that almost any MP would agree to support.
Complete that with a picture of Doris Smith (95) who buys a return ticket once a week with cash and the MP standing next to her assisting her to put her money in the machine.

I suspect it may be more difficult than expected to get rid of them.
Not at our stations with real people selling tickets. You're telling me an MP would campaign to keep TVMs over a staffed office?
 

AngusH

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Actually yes, I can see this happening.
Not maybe for premium intercity type stations but for others, absolutely.

I'm thinking particularly of those stations where the staffed office is only open for a few hours a day or which only have one staff member.
It would be very unsatisfactory to have such machines removed.

If that is a choice it would be better to close the office than remove the machines (much though I dislike the idea)

Also of course, those stations without a ticket office at all must have something
 

Bletchleyite

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Not at our stations with real people selling tickets. You're telling me an MP would campaign to keep TVMs over a staffed office?

Many stations with TVMs don't have staffed ticket offices. The situation I could see happening is that e.g. at a Northern unstaffed station you must purchase a ticket in advance but the station has no means to do that - you have to use your phone or do it in advance on the PC. That's not great.
 

Haywain

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Actually yes, I can see this happening.
Not maybe for premium intercity type stations but for others, absolutely.

I'm thinking particularly of those stations where the staffed office is only open for a few hours a day or which only have one staff member.
It would be very unsatisfactory to have such machines removed.

If that is a choice it would be better to close the office than remove the machines (much though I dislike the idea)

Also of course, those stations without a ticket office at all must have something
But cash TVMs at unstaffed stations are crime targets so there’s no incentive to install or maintain them. And usage (of cash) is known to be at a very low level so they have no great value.
 

Bletchleyite

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But cash TVMs at unstaffed stations are crime targets so there’s no incentive to install or maintain them. And usage (of cash) is known to be at a very low level so they have no great value.

Card TVMs, though? The obvious use-case is wanting to buy a ticket for an accompanied child who isn't of age to have a bank card[1]. That said, I suppose making accompanied younger children free (as TfL did) might be cheaper than maintaining TVMs.

[1] OK, there's GoHenry, but I doubt many 6 year olds (say) are parading those around.
 

AngusH

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But cash TVMs at unstaffed stations are crime targets so there s no incentive to install or maintain them. And usage (of cash) is known to be at a very low level so they have no great value.

Do you feel that it's now possible to move to 100% mobile/e-ticket ticketing for unstaffed stations in penalty fares areas?

I'm not sure I'd agree there.

edit: I'm prepared to accept Doris Smith (95) might be using a payment card when assisted by the MP in the staged photo though.
 

Bletchleyite

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Do you feel that it's now possible to move to 100% mobile/e-ticket ticketing for unstaffed stations in penalty fares areas?

I'm not sure I'd agree there.

I don't think it is, but I can see the likes of Northern trying it in maybe 5 years or so.

Penalty fares at stations with no staffed ticket office were utterly unthinkable 10 years ago...
 

AngusH

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I wonder if the answer could be selling selected (simple) train tickets via paypoint outlets in nearby newsagents.
That could be a way of giving up on the ticket machines.

(Sign: Buy rail ticket for this branch line at "Joe's Convenience Store" - across the road)

I don't think I've seen much along these lines except in the larger transport authority areas.
 

johntea

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One thing that annoys me with Northern is how I have one of their physical smart cards in my wallet which you can even 'scan' using their app to bring up the details of it but you can only load season tickets onto it rather than just a standard A-B day return for example

Although this seems a general limitation of most of the TOCs operating these smartcards, season tickets only
 

infobleep

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I wonder if the answer could be selling selected (simple) train tickets via paypoint outlets in nearby newsagents.
That could be a way of giving up on the ticket machines.

(Sign: Buy rail ticket for this branch line at "Joe's Convenience Store" - across the road)

I don't think I've seen much along these lines except in the larger transport authority areas.
Which works wonders when said Convenience store is closed but trains are running, such as 5am in the morning.
 

CyrusWuff

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One thing that annoys me with Northern is how I have one of their physical smart cards in my wallet which you can even 'scan' using their app to bring up the details of it but you can only load season tickets onto it rather than just a standard A-B day return for example

Although this seems a general limitation of most of the TOCs operating these smartcards, season tickets only
I don't know how Northern's TVMs are configured, but the Flowbird TVMs definitely support Smartcard fulfillment for ordinary walk-up tickets as long as the flow is enabled for it.
 

py_megapixel

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I’d personally like to see TOD only machines that don’t offer purchasing. I’d further like to see QR codes standardised for TOD collection so a barcode can be shown in place of the CTR, it could then have the added verification token in the barcode obviating the need for payment card presentation.

But I expect that won’t happen as the progress will be toward broadening acceptance of e-tickets instead. I expect ticket machines to receive next to no development funds going forward and they will be increasingly left behind, if that’s the case emulating apps as described earlier might be the least bad option.
TOD-only machines have been around for years now, but bizzarely only on a few TOCs; most never bothered install them as far as I'm aware. Now that it's the standard for TVMs to be card only except at large stations, I don't believe anyone is installing them at all, probably just because there's no hardware difference whatsoever between a machine which can issue tickets and one which can only print them.

I also think that broadening acceptance of E-tickets IS the right way to go, with the current TOD system replaced with machines which are capable of printing an already purchased QR coded E-ticket on paper. Passengers simply don't care whether they are scanning a barcode, sticking a piece of card in a slot, tapping or swiping a card, etc at the barrier
 

py_megapixel

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III wonder if the answer could be selling selected (simple) train tickets via paypoint outlets in nearby newsagents.
That could be a way of giving up on the ticket machines.

(Sign: Buy rail ticket for this branch line at "Joe's Convenience Store" - across the road)
It'd work, but the convenience store staff would need proper training so that they can offer a quality of service at least as good as a TVM could. We can't have Joe utterly baffled when somebody asks for a slightly obscure type of ticket.

One thing that annoys me with Northern is how I have one of their physical smart cards in my wallet which you can even 'scan' using their app to bring up the details of it but you can only load season tickets onto it rather than just a standard A-B day return for example

Although this seems a general limitation of most of the TOCs operating these smartcards, season tickets only
I am starting to both hope and believe that ITSO cards are nothing more than a fad, especially with the fact that travelling to work 5 days a week is becoming significantly less common now. They're crippled in all sorts of ways, not just the one you mention, and

My preference - and I think we're headed that way - is that the future is E-tickets fulfilled to mobile devices, augmented by machines and ticket offices capable of issuing and printing E-tickets (for those who would prefer a hard copy). This could be further supplemented by Oyster style PAYG systems run by PTEs and valid on multiple modes, and of course touch-in/out contactless payment.
 

Wallsendmag

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One thing that annoys me with Northern is how I have one of their physical smart cards in my wallet which you can even 'scan' using their app to bring up the details of it but you can only load season tickets onto it rather than just a standard A-B day return for example

Although this seems a general limitation of most of the TOCs operating these smartcards, season tickets only
The infrastructure just isn't there, to have an effective Smartcard scheme you need Gates or PVals (platform validators) at every station. The alternative to this is to use Smartcards for seasons that don't need validation and barcodes for other tickets. This is the approach taken by LNER, Northern and TPE.
 

Hadders

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I think we'll see smartcards for season tickets, e-tickets for one-off journeys and contactless or some other form of PAYG smartcard in urban areas.
 

py_megapixel

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The infrastructure just isn't there, to have an effective Smartcard scheme you need Gates or PVals (platform validators) at every station. The alternative to this is to use Smartcards for seasons that don't need validation and barcodes for other tickets. This is the approach taken by LNER, Northern and TPE.

I think we'll see smartcards for season tickets, e-tickets for one-off journeys and contactless or some other form of PAYG smartcard in urban areas.
I don't understand why we can't just use e-tickets for seasons as well? We managed OK with magstripe season tickets, and the barcodes encode pretty much the same data as the magstripes, so it should work fine surely.
 

Wallsendmag

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I don't understand why we can't just use e-tickets for seasons as well? We managed OK with magstripe season tickets, and the barcodes encode pretty much the same data as the magstripes, so it should work fine surely.
We can and we do although Smartcard is a more secure medium for Seasons especially if the Smartcard includes a photo of the holder.
 

skyhigh

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The infrastructure just isn't there, to have an effective Smartcard scheme you need Gates or PVals (platform validators) at every station. The alternative to this is to use Smartcards for seasons that don't need validation and barcodes for other tickets. This is the approach taken by LNER, Northern and TPE.
However, Northern have now installed a load of platform validators in West Yorkshire for their smart flexi-seasons.
 

Zooty

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The infrastructure just isn't there, to have an effective Smartcard scheme you need Gates or PVals (platform validators) at every station. The alternative to this is to use Smartcards for seasons that don't need validation and barcodes for other tickets. This is the approach taken by LNER, Northern and TPE.
I'm not seeing the difference here? Surely it's the same for an e-ticket return stored on a smartcard as it is for one presented as a barcode on paper? Either the infrastructure is there (gates, validators, conductor's smartphone) to validate the ticket and mark as used - or it isn't, in which case either medium is open for re-use of the ticket.
 

FQTV

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Not at our stations with real people selling tickets. You're telling me an MP would campaign to keep TVMs over a staffed office?

You’re telling us that LNER will never reduce the number of ticket offices, staff or opening hours?

We can and we do although Smartcard is a more secure medium for Seasons especially if the Smartcard includes a photo of the holder.

You’re telling us that LNER will never reduce barrier staff, or will definitely increase the number of on board staff to police short distance journeys on nine coach trains?
 

Wallsendmag

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You’re telling us that LNER will never reduce the number of ticket offices, staff or opening hours?



You’re telling us that LNER will never reduce barrier staff, or will definitely increase the number of on board staff to police short distance journeys on nine coach trains?
That's not what I'm saying at all , that's quite a twist on what I actually said
 

AngusH

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Going back to the original topic of interface design.

Which ticket machines are considered the best out of the current bunch.

Edit: Does it seem that simpler is always better, even if there are fewer features, or can the complicated models ever be better in general?
 

lkpridgeon

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Personally I'm all for a national Smartcard system for all tickets. I don't see why platform validators are actually required for them as they can just expire on the expiry date and checked the same as if an e-ticket. Fulfillment works from any nfc enabled device and ticket machines/ticket offices are going in the direction of being able to issue a product to a Smartcard (mainly due to the season ticket rollouts that are currently being performed).

Once validators are added we could then add more complex products such as carnets/tap2go/flexi-seasons to flows.

I don't like e-tickets as I quite frankly don't trust my devices to hold charge/me to charge them. And I don't carry a portable printer with me wherever I go. Smartcards from my general testing tend to hold the tickets locally of which works quite well in revenue checking scenarios where the system is down/there's no internet connection. Some TOC apps have issues loading if there's no connection.

Back onto ticket machines Scheidt & Bachmann ones are my favourite (thanks @Bletchleyite for that, I checked the machine yesterday to double check and you were correct :) ). The screens are responsive enough and not too large, the interface simple enough and can do more advanced stuff if needs be. I can purchase and load a ticket to my Smartcard in about 15 seconds now. Compared to the 15 minutes it took me to purchase an equivalent ticket using one of the GWR ticket machines and 5 minutes on the northern ones I think they sit in the good enough category.

If I need an itinerary I find it best to just go to a ticket office as quite often when love one is needed it's in advance of travelling and I need a couple of options (if a flexible ticket) to choose from. It's a lot easier explaining to a person that you want to go via x and return via y then convey that to a machine. I just want a machine to sell me a ticket at the end of the day. Nothing more.

Might I suggest using ticket machines as Smartcard validators and have at least 1 card only ticket machine at each station (maybe barring ones that get stupidly low patronage). Two birds, one stone. I also wouldn't mind getting rid of paper stock and making them issue new smartcards for 50p or so. If we do keep card stock you can now get nfc business cards relatively cheaply so I don't see why we can't issue card based smartcards that have the bonus of being recyclable

Edit: Does it seem that simpler is always better, even if there are fewer features, or can the complicated models ever be better in general?
From my standpoint having basic options readily available on the 1st screen but the ability to do something more complex using an advanced screen works best. For instance "tickets from other stations" being a button on the first screen that then takes you though that flow. Otherwise you select one of the most popular destinations (not tickets) from that station (readily shown in the 1st screen) or click other station and go though to type the station name. You then get shown a list of tickets in order of relevance (based off the current time) and on the final screen before paying it shows the origin/destination, price, valid times, restrictions as a safeguard before you pay.

The main issues I have with most of the machines I come across is less of the interface and more the fact that touchscreen isn't responsive enough to do what they're trying to do or they're not very ergonomic (for instance Northerns are too big which means you need to move your arm too much to get to the different buttons of which slows down the transaction).

But yes keep it simple and stupid for most users, big buttons and about a tablet size interface. And have a separate screen for those that require more advanced tickets such as from other stations. A journey planner could be integrated however it should be optional for the user.
 
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py_megapixel

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Personally I'm all for a national Smartcard system for all tickets. I don't see why platform validators are actually required for them as they can just expire on the expiry date and checked the same as if an e-ticket. Fulfillment works from any nfc enabled device and ticket machines/ticket offices are going in the direction of being able to issue a product to a Smartcard (mainly due to the season ticket rollouts that are currently being performed).
Yes, but it needs to be an actual national system, and it needs to be multi-mode (i.e. one card for all trains, trams, buses and other public transport anywhere in the UK). Also, if you have a smartcard, why not abolish the concept of buying tickets at all, and just operate a pay-as-you-go system.

Currently, ITSO cards are crippled, sometimes intentionally, sometimes by shortcomings in the system, to the point that I don't feel comfortable relying on them at all.

Might I suggest using ticket machines as Smartcard validators and have at least 1 card only ticket machine at each station (maybe barring ones that get stupidly low patronage). Two birds, one stone. I also wouldn't mind getting rid of paper stock and making them issue new smartcards for 50p or so. If we do keep card stock you can now get nfc business cards relatively cheaply so I don't see why we can't issue card based smartcards that have the bonus of being recyclable
I'm not convinced that NFC cards can be made entirely recyclable... they still have to contain electronics, regardless of what the material surrounding them is!
 

ta-toget

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I'm not convinced that NFC cards can be made entirely recyclable... they still have to contain electronics, regardless of what the material surrounding them is!
While difficult to recycle (a 275-page technical report (Schindler et al 2012) is available on RFID tags, which I believe are substantially the same)*, they could be made re-usable. This report seems to suggest that it is possible to separate RFID tags from paper, but I am led to believe that this requires that they are not embedded directly in the paper (i.e., a self-contained tag in embedded in a paper ticket). Re-use could be achieved by getting people to return them, perhaps getting a deposit back, and then they could be re-used.

*There is a press release from a manufacturer which claims a 'pulpable' paper tag, though I do not know whether that means recyclable.

FREMONT, Calif., January 23, 2020Identiv, Inc. (NASDAQ: INVE) today announced its commitment to creating a sustainable ecological footprint with the latest release in its transponder portfolio, Eco-Friendly RFID and NFC Tags. The clean, green radio frequency identification (RFID) and near field communication (NFC) inlays focus on a safer Internet of Things (IoT) market by serving the unique requirements of other environmentally conscious companies aiming to protect the planet.


Identiv’s Eco-Friendly RFID and NFC Tags are non-etched, paper-based transponder inlays that reduce the traditional use of PET-based substrates and byproducts. The tags are manufactured on renewable paper, without plastic layers and harmful chemicals, and boast a low carbon footprint. As the antenna is patterned in an innovative laser-manufacturing process, all excess aluminum is completely recycled, and the paper used is fully repulpable.


Unlike competitors which only offer paper-based ultra-high-frequency (UHF) antennas, Identiv uniquely offers both eco-friendly, non-etched high-frequency (HF)/NFC and UHF inlays. As the world’s most customer-focused, innovative transponder designer and manufacturer, Identiv’s latest inlay continues the company’s legacy of flexibility and customization; the Eco-Friendly RFID Tag is available in various sizes and features customizable antenna designs. Use cases span from paper Eco-Friendly RFID Cards, Eco-Friendly RFID Tickets, and Eco-Friendly RFID Labels to practically every other typical RFID solution on the market today.


“Identiv continues to roll out the industry’s most innovative RFID products while always working closely with our customers to fulfill their unique requirements,” said Dr. Manfred Mueller, Identiv COO and General Manager, Identity. “As RFID is embedded into more and more products, and applications for consumer authentication and engagement continue to grow, packaging and RFID inlays are a natural place for enterprise and technology customers looking to reduce their environmental footprint.”


The Eco-Friendly RFID Tag follows the same simple, high-speed, cost-efficient production model of Identiv’s entire transponder portfolio, allowing for the highest volumes at the highest quality while remaining cost-neutral.


Identiv’s team is expert in designing and manufacturing HF and UHF transponders for embedded use in everyday objects, like medical devices, books, toys, athletic apparel, perishable food items, and pharmaceuticals. Regardless of the form factor (dry inlay, wet inlay, label, ticket, and more), Identiv’s transponders are uniquely positioned to deliver RFID connectivity to any object in the IoT market. Learn more about Identiv’s complete RFID, NFC, and inlay portfolio by visiting identiv.com/products/rfid-nfc-inlays, calling +1 888.809.8880, or contacting [email protected].

Schindler, Helen Rebecca, Nico Schmalbein, Vasco Steltenkamp, Jonathan Cave, Bastian Wens, and Arne Anhalt, SMART TRASH: Study on RFID tags and the recycling industry, European Commission, TR-1283-EC, 2012. As of January 15, 2021: https://www.rand.org/pubs/technical_reports/TR1283.html
Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) technology is linked to waste management and recycling in two complementary ways: as objects, tags contain a variety of materials whose management and recycling is desirable on environmental grounds. These materials vary with the type of tag and their significance will increase as tags become more pervasive. On the other hand, tags can themselves contribute to the efficiency and effectiveness of recycling at various stages in the lifecycles of a wide range of products ranging from simple materials to complex objects containing a variety of materials.
The study, funded by the European Commission, aims to inform policy making by assessing the environmental impact of the RFID tags themselves as well as the environmental advantages that the use of RFID can provide to product lifecycle management. An integral goal is to identify the associated obstacles and needs for policy action and/or research activity.
This Report is the final deliverable of the project, presenting the findings of our research. The study, led by RAND Europe and conducted in partnership with the Department of Processing and Recycling at RWTH Aachen University and P3 Ingenieurgesellschaft, applies a number of different quantitative and qualitative methodologies, including systematic literature reviews, key informant interviews, use cases and case study analysis, and scenario development.
 
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