Ticket print order could be more customer friendly

[Bill57p9]

I bought return tickets for 3 of us onboard EMR this morning (I don't know the name of portable ticket system they use) and the resulting long string of card got me thinking:
The tickets are printed receipt first, then each return in sequence, i.e. receipt, out, return, out, return, out, return.

Self service TVMs print in the same order, though obviously these tend to dump a pile rather than a connected string.

This seems logical when selling tickets, but more times than not, would it not be more customer friendly for using tickets to print all the outwards, then all the returns? I always find myself having to reshuffle the pile/string.

 

[pemma]

would it not be more customer friendly for using tickets to print all the outwards, then all the returns?

Why? Instead of handing an outbound & return ticket to the person travelling with you, you then have to hand over all the outbound tickets one by one, followed by the return tickets. That might be handy if you're travelling with a child or someone who is prone to losing things but for most adults I can't see the advantage in what you're saying is more customer friendly.

 

[mmh]

I bought return tickets for 3 of us onboard EMR this morning (I don't know the name of portable ticket system they use) and the resulting long string of card got me thinking:
The tickets are printed receipt first, then each return in sequence, i.e. receipt, out, return, out, return, out, return.

Self service TVMs print in the same order, though obviously these tend to dump a pile rather than a connected string.

This seems logical when selling tickets, but more times than not, would it not be more customer friendly for using tickets to print all the outwards, then all the returns? I always find myself having to reshuffle the pile/string.

Yes, this is irritating. I put it down to yet another example of the railway industry just being incapable of properly specifying ticketing technology and having no interest in its effect on passengers.

I mostly buy return paper tickets from a ticket office. The machine prints the outward first, return second meaning when I'm asked to show my ticket invariably it's the one in the wrong direction. I've noticed ticket checking staff and guards seem very used to that.

It's the super-incompetence you get when you have super-ludicrous structures, which unfortunately is what our railway has had for quite a while, and more so now than ever.

 

[miklcct]

I bought return tickets for 3 of us onboard EMR this morning (I don't know the name of portable ticket system they use) and the resulting long string of card got me thinking:
The tickets are printed receipt first, then each return in sequence, i.e. receipt, out, return, out, return, out, return.

Self service TVMs print in the same order, though obviously these tend to dump a pile rather than a connected string.

This seems logical when selling tickets, but more times than not, would it not be more customer friendly for using tickets to print all the outwards, then all the returns? I always find myself having to reshuffle the pile/string.

I don't see a problem of this. There are many possible orders of tickets. For example, if my basket contains 8 day trips, it will be used as out return out return out return etc.; however, if my basket contains split tickets, the order of usage will be ticket 1 out, ticket 2 out, ticket 2 return, ticket 1 return.

There isn't a single sorting algorithm which can cater for everyone's needs.

 

[philthetube]

Why? I can't see the advantage in what you're saying is more customer friendly.

It's the super-incompetence you get when you have super-ludicrous structures, which unfortunately is what our railway has had for quite a while, and more so now than ever.

Ever get the feeling that the railway cannot win,

 

[mmh]

Why? You may have purchased multiple tickets for one journey because it's cheaper to split tickets but other people may be purchasing multiple tickets for different journeys in the same transaction. If you had to make a return journey to Birmingham for work on Monday and then a return journey to London on Thursday, your suggestion would put the tickets out-of-order when currently they are in the right order.

Ever get the feeling that the railway cannot win,

It didn't have a chance of winning post-privatisation in terms of ticketing. We're now at the point that has finally been accepted by government. And we're at the point where it will probably be "fixed" incompletely, not least because the government will be informed by those who've kept it incompetent.

 

[Bill57p9]

Why? Instead of handing an outbound & return ticket to the person travelling with you, you then have to hand over all the outbound tickets one by one, followed by the return tickets. That might be handy if you're travelling with a child or someone who is prone to losing things but for most adults I can't see the advantage in what you're saying is more customer friendly.

Point taken, though my use case is traveling in a (usually family) group at which point normally one person is "in charge" of the tickets - even if I am travelling with friends.

I find it even less friendly when seat reservations are involved, as they tend to appear interspersed with the actual travel tickets rather than together.

I do get that different people have different preferences.

I find the stack that drops with split tickets needs even more sorting.

The suggestion of printing return first on a TVM so that the outward is at the top is a very good point. I know it's a small thing...

 

[Adam Williams]

The (entirely useless for travel) collection receipt being printed first is maddening when the service you need to board is pulling into the station at the time you're trying to buy the ticket, and delays the entire process by a good ten seconds.

 

[pemma]

Point taken, though my use case is traveling in a (usually family) group at which point normally one person is "in charge" of the tickets - even if I am travelling with friends.

I don't see the point of one person being in charge (controlling) if they are with other adults. Go to the toilet at the wrong time and your fellow passengers don't have tickets when the inspector walks though and it creates a lot of fuss for no reason.

Also don't forget a group of business travellers may all have tickets booked in the same transaction. I'd prefer not to be holding a few £100 returns to London, just because if one wallet gets lost that's a hefty bill for new tickets.

By all means look after a 5 year old child's ticket but don't think that's a normal way of acting with other adults.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The tickets are printed receipt first,

This is the one bit I’d like changed: as a TVM user it would be useful to have a clearly defined ‘last thing printed’ so you can be more certain that all the tickets you wanted have come down the chute - and having the receipt at the end would do that.

Otherwise, for a TVM the order of print makes no difference in that if you’re collecting multiple tickets they all get mixed up in the hopper, so you have to sort them out anyhow.

 

[miklcct]

The (entirely useless for travel) collection receipt being printed first is maddening when the service you need to board is pulling into the station at the time you're trying to buy the ticket, and delays the entire process by a good ten seconds.

It is printed at the last by SWR machines.

 

[The exile]

I don't see the point of one person being in charge (controlling) if they are with other adults. Go to the toilet at the wrong time and your fellow passengers don't have tickets when the inspector walks though and it creates a lot of fuss for no reason.

Also don't forget a group of business travellers may all have tickets booked in the same transaction. I'd prefer not to be holding a few £100 returns to London, just because if one wallet gets lost that's a hefty bill for new tickets.

By all means look after a 5 year old child's ticket but don't think that's a normal way of acting with other adults.

For everyone who “doesn’t see the point”, I’m sure there is one who does. This is genuinely a case of “ the issuer can’t win” as what is exactly right for some is inconvenient for others.

 

[pemma]

For everyone who “doesn’t see the point”, I’m sure there is one who does.

As I said in an earlier post, under certain circumstances I can understand an adult passenger being 'in charge' of all tickets but Bill57p9 claiming it's the normal way of travelling even for groups of adults is just bizarre. I don't know if he's taken in to account business travellers, who will use exactly the same machines as leisure passengers, never mind leisure passengers who don't want to take charge of the tickets of responsible adults they are travelling with.

This is genuinely a case of “ the issuer can’t win” as what is exactly right for some is inconvenient for others.

Northern do survey focus groups on subjects like TVMs and I imagine other train operators do the same. I don't recall a question on the order tickets come out of the machine but it would be something you could write under in the other comments box.

While most of us probably don't do it, the first thing we should be checking is the tickets have been issued correctly e.g. if you purchased two adult Off-Peak returns and one child Off-Peak return for Wolverhampton to Birmingham on 1st May then ensuring you have tickets saying exactly that.

The most important thing when it comes to a TVM is the legal obligation of making sure as many passengers as possible can use the machine. Getting the colour scheme wrong and preventing colour blind passengers from using it would be a catastrophic failure, as would preventing wheelchair users from accessing it.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I would prefer if the return portion printed before the outward, as I would then have time to put it away in my wallet while the outward is printing. I usually want to have the outward in my hand to immediately operate the barriers, so it would be more convenient if it printed last!

 

[py_megapixel]

I would prefer if the return portion printed before the outward, as I would then have time to put it away in my wallet while the outward is printing. I usually want to have the outward in my hand to immediately operate the barriers, so it would be more convenient if it printed last!

How about we make it so that all TVMs display a list of all the coupons that will be printed and the customer has to drag-and-drop them into their preferred order on the touchscreen before pressing "print"

(not a serious suggestion, obviously)

 

[pemma]

I would prefer if the return portion printed before the outward, as I would then have time to put it away in my wallet while the outward is printing. I usually want to have the outward in my hand to immediately operate the barriers, so it would be more convenient if it printed last!

How slow does the machine at your station print tickets?

How about we make it so that all TVMs display a list of all the coupons that will be printed and the customer has to drag-and-drop them into their preferred order on the touchscreen before pressing "print"

(not a serious suggestion, obviously)

That won't be necessary once voice commands have been enabled

 

[swt_passenger]

How about we make it so that all TVMs display a list of all the coupons that will be printed and the customer has to drag-and-drop them into their preferred order on the touchscreen before pressing "print"

(not a serious suggestion, obviously)

I think we’d also need a “random order” button to cover all preferences…

 

[_toommm_]

I think we’d also need a “random order” button to cover all preferences…

It could be said that you can never get a truly random order, as to get a random order on a computer, it has to be programmed to be done in a certain way. The generation of true random orders remains unsolved in computer science

 

[Ediswan]

It could be said that you can never get a truly random order, as to get a random order on a computer, it has to be programmed to be done in a certain way. The generation of true random orders remains unsolved in computer science

Hence the hardware random number generator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator
The most famous is ERNIE, used for Premium Bonds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premium_Bond#ERNIE

 

[pemma]

Hence the hardware random number generator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_random_number_generator
The most famous is ERNIE, used for Premium Bonds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premium_Bond#ERNIE

ERNIE has been manipulated so it can't produce the combination of numbers relating to bonds which have been sold back.

 

[Snow1964]

I would prefer if the return portion printed before the outward, as I would then have time to put it away in my wallet while the outward is printing. I usually want to have the outward in my hand to immediately operate the barriers, so it would be more convenient if it printed last!

I travelled today, bought 2 returns, and the TVM printed 5 card tickets. When I picked them out the tray they were 2 outward, 2 return and receipt. When I last did it it (few weeks ago) was outward, return, outward, return, receipt.

Either someone has changed the order, or it was a fluke the way they landed in the tray after printing.

 

[Ediswan]

ERNIE has been manipulated so it can't produce the combination of numbers relating to bonds which have been sold back.

I can believe they are filtered out if generated.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I travelled today, bought 2 returns, and the TVM printed 5 card tickets. When I picked them out the tray they were 2 outward, 2 return and receipt. When I last did it it (few weeks ago) was outward, return, outward, return, receipt.

Either someone has changed the order, or it was a fluke the way they landed in the tray after printing.

Some TVMs have two printers which print at the same time , so the order could always end up being random depending on which printer finishes first.

 

[centraltrains]

"Out Return Out Return" order is a good safety net for if you are buying for multiple passengers and a printer error occurs - you get full sets of tickets rather than just half journey tickets - leading to less incomplete tickets which need disputing/rebuying.

This happened once when I was younger going out for a trip with another family - asked at ticket office - they checked for jammed tickets but couldn't do anything but sell us the incomplete tickets separately. I hope the future will eventually hold (an option for) biometric identity based tickets so no documentation by the consumer must be held.

 

[island]

ERNIE has been manipulated so it can't produce the combination of numbers relating to bonds which have been sold back.

I don’t believe that’s the case; he just produces any possible combination up to the upper limit and they have to separately filter out non-existent ones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hope the future will eventually hold (an option for) biometric identity based tickets so no documentation by the consumer must be held.

With the data protection issues that could cause, I'd rather not. Just use e-tickets.

ToD is a nuisance, and is going to go away soon enough, I understand.

 

[centraltrains]

With the data protection issues that could cause, I'd rather not. Just use e-tickets.

I'd only ever advocate it as an additional option for those who want it - it's would mainly be a method to reduce the burden of carrying a ticket, or of worrying about phones being charged (if you can't get to a printer). (Albeit this is off topic - I imagine there is already another thread with deeper discussion on biometric ticketing?)

 

[yorkie]

....I hope the future will eventually hold (an option for) biometric identity based tickets...

Biometrics have their uses, but not for railway ticketing in my opinion (I say this as someone who has experience of managing//using biometric systems in a workplace environment);

I'd only ever advocate it as an additional option for those who want it - it's would mainly be a method to reduce the burden of carrying a ticket, or of worrying about phones being charged (if you can't get to a printer). (Albeit this is off topic - I imagine there is already another thread with deeper discussion on biometric ticketing?)

Feel free to create a new thread for this topic. The closest I found was this https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-charge-passengers-say-industry-plans.141881/ but that was over 5 years ago and a new thread would be better (in the speculative discussion section).

I don't see a problem of this. There are many possible orders of tickets. For example, if my basket contains 8 day trips, it will be used as out return out return out return etc.; however, if my basket contains split tickets, the order of usage will be ticket 1 out, ticket 2 out, ticket 2 return, ticket 1 return.

There isn't a single sorting algorithm which can cater for everyone's needs.

When Trainsplit started issuing e-tickets I gave them feedback and they implemented what I suggested and I think they have it spot on now.

Each 'journey' is be issued as a separate PDF (if multiple passengers, one PDF per passenger).

Within a journey, if there are multiple tickets involved, these are ordered in the same order in which the tickets are used.

For example if I booked a return journey from York to Derby, the order would be:

1. York - Sheffield OUT portion
2. Sheffield - Derby OUT portion
3. Derby - Sheffield RTN portion
4. Sheffield - York RTN portion

One drawback ofTrainsplit is there is not yet an option to specify an "open" return journey; Trainline does do this however it is annoying that Trainline will issue a return ticket as two separate PDFs, one for the out and one for the return whereas I prefer it to be on one PDF.

 

[PeterC]

Point taken, though my use case is traveling in a (usually family) group at which point normally one person is "in charge" of the tickets - even if I am travelling with friends.

Not a very efficient system for getting through a gated station.

 

[yorkie]

Not a very efficient system for getting through a gated station.

This is where e-tickets can be great; everyone has their own copy but a 'leader' could also be in possession of all tickets, and therefore when any inspection occurs, a pragmatic approach could be adopted depending on the situation.

If the group includes children then you probably wouldn't want to give them their own tickets, certainly not if they were paper tickets and they could lose them.