Timed For IC225?

[Rhydgaled]

I remember reading that the GNER/BR timetables for the ECML had most trains timed for IC125 trains, even if diagrammed for an IC225 set, so that IC125s could stand in for a failed/unavailable IC225. The exception was a few of the fastest services, such as the 'Flying Scotsman'. Is East Coast's current timetable the same or are all services booked for IC225s now timed to take advantage of the 91's superior performance compared to their diesel counterparts?

 

[asylumxl]

From information from sites such as Real Time Trains, it seems as if they are officially listed as timed for their usual stock.

Whether or not they are actually timetabled for that stock is another matter entirely though.

 

[Yew]

I was under the Impression that a HST could out accelerate a 91?

 

[route:oxford]

I was under the Impression that a HST could out accelerate a 91?

How many coaches on the HST?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Take all that with a pinch of salt, Chiltern services are timed for a 158 on Realtime Trains. Chiltern don't have and have never had any 158s in their fleet and the timings are for 100mph trains, a 158 has a top speed of 90.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Take all that with a pinch of salt, Chiltern services are timed for a 158 on Realtime Trains.

That looks to be an error in the data feed, as they're correctly shown as 168s in the WTT.

 

[Marton]

I was under the Impression that a HST could out accelerate a 91?

But don't they need extra station time for the doors?

 

[Fincra5]

Depends of the diagram I guess... for example Seafords which are mainly operated by 313s are timed for a 100mph EMU

 

[87019Chris]

IIRC HST's would out accelerate in the beginning 0-60 for example but the IC225's will catch up and will sit at 125 much easier as the HST's have more driving wheels in contact with the rail (Do correct me if I'm wrong though). Also the dwell times will be longer for HST's.

 

[yorkie]

Take all that with a pinch of salt, Chiltern services are timed for a 158 on Realtime Trains. Chiltern don't have and have never had any 158s in their fleet and the timings are for 100mph trains, a 158 has a top speed of 90.

For an explanation see this post by D6700.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was under the Impression that a HST could out accelerate a 91?

Up to what speed and with how many coaches?

A 2+9 HST vs a 91+ 9 Mk4s + DVT up to 125? I doubt that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But don't they need extra station time for the doors?

They do, yes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IIRC HST's would out accelerate in the beginning 0-60 for example....

agreed.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I was under the Impression that a HST could out accelerate a 91?

A 2+7 IC125 versus a full 2+9 IC225 maybe.

Using figures from Wikipedia, a pair of class 43s would tip the scales at 140.5 tonnes and develop 3540bhp. A 91 and DVT would weigh 125.2 tonnes with the 91 providing 6,480 hp. That's 91+DVT 51.hp/tonne, 2x 43 25.2hp/tonne.

Wikipedia doesn't say how much a mrk3 coach weighs, but it says a mrk4 is 39.9 tonnes. Which gives roughly 485.2 tonnes for an entire IC225 set or 13.4 horses per tonne. If I assume a Mrk3 weighs 39.9 tonnes, a 2+8 IC125 I think works out arround 7.7 hp/tonne. So even with one carriage less, the INTERCITY 125 is beaten on power-to-weight ratio, thanks to the shear power of the class 91.

 

[91104]

As someone who drives both HST and class 91 I can say a HST is marginally quicker up to around 50 mph but after that a 91 pulling a mk4 set is quicker up to 125. Also there are no difference between 91/HST timings as it's pretty much a clock face timetable these days and there's generally generous padding in the timings to take up any slack.

 

[notadriver]

A class 180 beats them both

 

[najaB]

A class 180 beats them both

Tell that to the people it leaves behind on the platform.

 

[Murph]

So even with one carriage less, the INTERCITY 125 is beaten on power-to-weight ratio, thanks to the shear power of the class 91.

Don't forget that the 91 is geared for 140mph service speed (162mph record), compared to 125mph service speed (147mph record) for the 43. The raw power of the 91 probably does put it ahead (but the HST's BoBo+BoBo config probably wins the initial sprint off the blocks), but the gearing will narrow the gap.

 

[MCR247]

A class 180 beats them both

When its not blocking the line because its caught fire

 

[glbotu]

This has probably been answered before, but what has the best PWR on the rails? I know a 185 has quite a lot of clout (I've been on a late running one with some pretty aggressive driving and you can certainly feel it).

 

[notadriver]

What's PWR?

 

[455driver]

Power weight Ratio I assume.

 

[notadriver]

Ah well that's obviously a 395 under AC power. 4500 hp for approx 265 tons about the same as a class 47 running light engine

 

[glbotu]

What's PWR?

Yes, I did mean Power-Weight Ratio. Should probably have made that clear.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I have now managed to find the original source, an RSSB report dated Dec 2007 which said, among other things:

Because most of the schedules, other than a few like The Flying Scotsman, are timetabled to be operable either by electric or diesel traction, the 4.4MW Class 91 locomotives are mainly being used at 60% of their nominal ratings.

The original point of this topic was whether this is still true today, or are the 91s frequently worked harder now?

 

[deltic08]

I have now managed to find the original source, an RSSB report dated Dec 2007 which said, among other things:
The original point of this topic was whether this is still true today, or are the 91s frequently worked harder now?

I think Class 91s are not far off their maximum performance on the East Coast. I travelled from York to London last year. Acceleration from York and Peterborough was markedly slow and with two signal checks on and off the up slow somewhere near St Neots put us 12 late into the Cross. I managed to speak to the driver as he was stepping out of his cab and he confirmed that he was on only three traction motors so there can't be much in reserve to maintain time on four traction motors.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Ah well that's obviously a 395 under AC power. 4500 hp for approx 265 tons about the same as a class 47 running light engine

Hmmm,

How about a 373?

I think that has a slightly better PWR.

 

[notadriver]

You're right it does but it's slow to accelerate.