Timing of Engneering Works

[al78]

But is it? - or is it that the traffic distribution on the road network just shifts location?

Not my experience on Friday, although I didn't travel on the notorious section of the M6 around Birmingham and near Stafford where they have been installing smart motorway infrastructure since what feels like the last ice age.

 

[dan5324]

I love this thread. It pretty much sums up why trains will never replace the car for most leisure trips despite the best attempts from the greens/car haters. Unable to divert trains to other termini, works must be done over bank holidays bla bla. The public don’t have neither the time or patience for this and would sooner jump in their cars. And who could blame them?

Also explains why national express were licking their lips over this Easter holiday. I can see why. At stansted so far, they’ve already made more Just there than the entire network made last year alone! Absolutely crazy.

 

[The exile]

Not my experience on Friday, although I didn't travel on the notorious section of the M6 around Birmingham and near Stafford where they have been installing smart motorway infrastructure since what feels like the last ice age.

I was thinking more about the fact that many of the cars that were clogging up the motorways etc would normally have been clogging up town centres.

 

[Annetts key]

I love this thread. It pretty much sums up why trains will never replace the car for most leisure trips despite the best attempts from the greens/car haters. Unable to divert trains to other termini, works must be done over bank holidays bla bla. The public don’t have neither the time or patience for this and would sooner jump in their cars. And who could blame them?

Also explains why national express were licking their lips over this Easter holiday. I can see why. At stansted so far, they’ve already made more Just there than the entire network made last year alone! Absolutely crazy.

So what would be your solution?

 

[Mag_seven]

I love this thread. It pretty much sums up why trains will never replace the car for most leisure trips despite the best attempts from the greens/car haters. Unable to divert trains to other termini, works must be done over bank holidays bla bla. The public don’t have neither the time or patience for this and would sooner jump in their cars. And who could blame them?

Also explains why national express were licking their lips over this Easter holiday. I can see why. At stansted so far, they’ve already made more Just there than the entire network made last year alone! Absolutely crazy.

The railway will always lose business to other modes when lines have to be closed for engineering work - the work has to get done one way or the other but when the work is complete the passengers affected generally always return.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm hearing reports that there will be record car journeys on the roads this easter.

Why is demand for rail travel low over the Easter weekend, when for the road network it often hitting record levels?

The roads are busy in the run up to Easter, and on the Monday. There were very busy Wednesday and Thursday with people ‘getting away’ and to a lesser extent Friday morning. By Friday afternoon the roads were dead. Dead yesterday too. And today (so far). They’ll be busy tomorrow afternoon and Tuesday.

A more accurate headline would be the tthe roads had ‘record levels’ of traffic on Thursday - when of course the rail network was also fully open.

But the Easter holiday is probably the best time for the football competitions, and only a minority of those attending might use the Euston line. Most will use car and/or the Underground anyway. It's a bit unreasonable of the railway to scoop everyone else's best opportunities first.

As I posted on another thread (or possibly this one) , the FA cup semis have not been held over the Easter weekend since Wembley was rebuilt. It would be a reasonable assumption by rail planners 2-3 years ago that they would not be this year also.

 

[Annetts key]

The organisers of big events really should communicate with the railways so that big events don’t take place at the same time that relevant railway lines/stations are closed. And this should be a two way conversation, so the railways should also plan for big events properly.

 

[The Planner]

The organisers of big events really should communicate with the railways so that big events don’t take place at the same time that relevant railway lines/stations are closed. And this should be a two way conversation, so the railways should also plan for big events properly.

It does happen and is a two way converstation, for example the football plqyoffs are 99% always at late May bank holiday so the WCML and Chilterns will be clear. Standard engineering times are cut back for the London Marathon on a lot of routes and you won't see anything around the West Mids for the Commonwealth games. The balance is what a "big" event is.

 

[Mag_seven]

The organisers of big events really should communicate with the railways so that big events don’t take place at the same time that relevant railway lines/stations are closed. And this should be a two way conversation, so the railways should also plan for big events properly.

I'm sure that Network Rail provide a statement of major works coming up with the relevant organisations?

 

[Annetts key]

It does happen and is a two way converstation, for example the football plqyoffs are 99% always at late May bank holiday so the WCML and Chilterns will be clear. Standard engineering times are cut back for the London Marathon on a lot of routes and you won't see anything around the West Mids for the Commonwealth games. The balance is what a "big" event is.

Of course, but the perception is that this does not happen for all ‘big’ events. And yes, it’s very subjective as to what is a big event. Especially as this is also dependent on how many people may travel by rail.

 

[800001]

Whilst what you say is sensible I'm not sure Hull Trains route conduct / have route conducted their trains over all the diversionary routes, like Goole or via the Joint Line.

East Coast of course have a wide route card for a passenger operator but they have an 'interesting' way of keeping it up to date (if thats the right word)

What the interesting way? If you mean by using there thunderbird or spare 5 car Azuma to operate route refreshers, which is what they currently do.

 

[bramling]

The roads are busy in the run up to Easter, and on the Monday. There were very busy Wednesday and Thursday with people ‘getting away’ and to a lesser extent Friday morning. By Friday afternoon the roads were dead. Dead yesterday too. And today (so far). They’ll be busy tomorrow afternoon and Tuesday.

A more accurate headline would be the tthe roads had ‘record levels’ of traffic on Thursday - when of course the rail network was also fully open.

Exactly my experience. 1400 on Wednesday was busy on the A1(M), meanwhile same time on Thursday was surprisingly quiet. Interestingly things have been noticeably quiet for the last 3 or 4 weeks anyway, which one can only put down to fuel prices. Roads completely dead yesterday round here. Will be interesting to see what tomorrow is like.

To be honest, I get a bit tired of this stuck record with regard to doing works in the week. Whilst there’s some merit in the argument of taking a week’s hit to do a 9-day closure where this is viable, the idea of moving works from weekends to weekdays isn’t. People need to accept firstly that weekday travel is still more prevalent than weekends overall (a busy train to London, Manchester or the beach on a Saturday morning does not mean every weekend train is busy), and secondly that work and school journeys are quite simply more important, and more valuable to the wider society and economy.

 

[pemma]

I'm sure that Network Rail provide a statement of major works coming up with the relevant organisations?

It seems relating to the FA cup semi-finals that the FA were aware of the plans but pressed ahead with their own plan to continue to hold the semi-final at Wembley and presumably to hope it wouldn't involve 2 North West clubs in the same semi-final.

I'm not sure if Network Rail publish their plans to all organisers of big events in time for them to consider the impact. For example, did the RHS get notification of Network Rail's plan to do Mid-Cheshire line works on one the July Sunday when they normally run the RHS Tatton Show last year? Even if they did was before other organisers had booked the park for other events like the American Car Show (usually held on the weekend closest to the 4th July), The Foodies Festival (usually held the weekend before the RHS show) etc.? Then even if the park's available the RHS have to consider if other suppliers can change their dates, for example the supplier of catering vehicles and the agency providing staff to handle ticketing and car parking.

 

[The Planner]

It seems relating to the FA cup semi-finals that the FA were aware of the plans but pressed ahead with their own plan to continue to hold the semi-final at Wembley and presumably to hope it wouldn't involve 2 North West clubs in the same semi-final.

I'm not sure if Network Rail publish their plans to all organisers of big events in time for them to consider the impact. For example, did the RHS get notification of Network Rail's plan to do Mid-Cheshire line works on one the July Sunday when they normally run the RHS Tatton Show last year? Even if they did was before other organisers had booked the park for other events like the American Car Show (usually held on the weekend closest to the 4th July), The Foodies Festival (usually held the weekend before the RHS show) etc.? Then even if the park's available the RHS have to consider if other suppliers can change their dates, for example the supplier of catering vehicles and the agency providing staff to handle ticketing and car parking.

Remember this is a two way thing, why does the onus have to be completely on NR? Operators often know where all their big events etc are, and quite often say don't put it there.

 

[Class 170101]

What the interesting way? If you mean by using there thunderbird or spare 5 car Azuma to operate route refreshers, which is what they currently do.

Drivers manging their own route knowledge / competency asking for route refreshers rather than by managers at the depots (as I understand it).

 

[Horizon22]

The organisers of big events really should communicate with the railways so that big events don’t take place at the same time that relevant railway lines/stations are closed. And this should be a two way conversation, so the railways should also plan for big events properly.

I think others have insinuated this does happen but the FA were absolutely stubborn about Wembley for the semi-final, for instance.

I love this thread. It pretty much sums up why trains will never replace the car for most leisure trips despite the best attempts from the greens/car haters. Unable to divert trains to other termini, works must be done over bank holidays bla bla. The public don’t have neither the time or patience for this and would sooner jump in their cars. And who could blame them?

Also explains why national express were licking their lips over this Easter holiday. I can see why. At stansted so far, they’ve already made more Just there than the entire network made last year alone! Absolutely crazy.

So when the railway needs maintenance when do you suggest it is done? It is more cost-efficient to have it done in blocks, or would you like smaller (but more frequent) engineering work instead which would be overall more expensive to the taxpayer?

As for patience well it’s been going on for decades I think people understand, and it’s not the same route every bank holiday unless there’s a really big modernisation happening. The rail network would never be able to cope with all of the additional travellers anyway.

No it will never replace the car and I don’t think the “car haters” ever intend it to fully either that simply isn’t realistic for end-to-end journeys. But a decent modal shift for longer distance journeys to and from towns & cities is certainly possible.

All that being said there are definitely more weekly blocks (including a weekend) than before and this may be suitable at certain times, especially if a solid rail replacement service can be provided that does not extend journey times excessively for commuter / school / work journeys.

 

[dan5324]

So what would be your solution?

Err. Don’t take the train.

 

[Horizon22]

Err. Don’t take the train.

You weren't going to take the train anyway, so why bother contributing? Roads have closures too and have traffic congestion. This adds nothing of value to the realities of running a transport system.

 

[Class 170101]

So when the railway needs maintenance when do you suggest it is done? It is more cost-efficient to have it done in blocks, or would you like smaller (but more frequent) engineering work instead which would be overall more expensive to the taxpayer?

In terms of maintenance slightly later starts and earlier finishes on Sunday with buses covering the start and end of normal service should be the norm.

Blocks of 12hr duration for maintenance (so say blocked until lunchtime Sunday) won't work for those making day trips. If the main flow of traffic is long distance travel then 13:00 Saturday to 13:00 Sunday like the East Coast Operator has then fair enough. BUT what it does also do is prevent 'local' journeys eg Darlington to York or Darlington to Newcastle for those day trips.

 

[dan5324]

You weren't going to take the train anyway, so why bother contributing? Roads have closures too and have traffic congestion. This adds nothing of value to the realities of running a transport system.

I would take it. But they don’t run….

 

[Horizon22]

In terms of maintenance slightly later starts and earlier finishes on Sunday with buses covering the start and end of normal service should be the norm.

Blocks of 12hr duration for maintenance (so say blocked until lunchtime Sunday) won't work for those making day trips. If the main flow of traffic is long distance travel then 13:00 Saturday to 13:00 Sunday like the East Coast Operator has then fair enough. BUT what it does also do is prevent 'local' journeys eg Darlington to York or Darlington to Newcastle for those day trips.

There's already fairly late start ups on Sunday in many places - you can't get anywhere long-distance til 0900 or 1000. Passengers really do start turning up after 1000 in significant numbers.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Exactly my experience. 1400 on Wednesday was busy on the A1(M), meanwhile same time on Thursday was surprisingly quiet. Interestingly things have been noticeably quiet for the last 3 or 4 weeks anyway, which one can only put down to fuel prices. Roads completely dead yesterday round here. Will be interesting to see what tomorrow is like.

Went down to brother in laws earlier and outside of Christmas Day never seen the local A road so empty.

To be honest, I get a bit tired of this stuck record with regard to doing works in the week. Whilst there’s some merit in the argument of taking a week’s hit to do a 9-day closure where this is viable, the idea of moving works from weekends to weekdays isn’t. People need to accept firstly that weekday travel is still more prevalent than weekends overall (a busy train to London, Manchester or the beach on a Saturday morning does not mean every weekend train is busy), and secondly that work and school journeys are quite simply more important, and more valuable to the wider society and economy.

Im all for blockades but NR needs to then give the railway back to the operators for years but they don't as something else always needs doing a few weeks later. We also need to get back to not shutting such large sections down but reducing the possession to where the work is not Jcn to Jcn. What happened to working to a point of obstruction. I get the station needs to be suitable for a bus operation.

 

[miklcct]

Marylebone or Paddington. It's all been done before - but ultimately it comes down to economics. It's cheaper to palm people off with a replacement bus from Milton Keynes to Bedford or Stanmore.

Yes, it might save a few quid in opex, but the reputational damage it does to the railway cannot be underestimated. Lots of people have it in their mind that "the railway is always shut over Bank Holidays" and therefore won't even bother to look whether it might actually be open for their journey.

Hull Trains diverted into St Pancras during the Kings Cross closures. Virgin ran Blockade Busters into Marylebone. GWR diverted via Banbury into Marylebone or into Waterloo. None of those were done for fun - because of railway managers having a jolly. They were all sensible ideas and there is no fundamental reason that they couldn't be the norm.

How is it possible for GWR to divert to Waterloo? The trains to Paddington are under 25 kV overhead lines but the line to Waterloo is 3rd rail DC. Can the high-speed trains run on diesel on the Reading - Waterloo line?

 

[zwk500]

How is it possible for GWR to divert to Waterloo? The trains to Paddington are under 25 kV overhead lines but the line to Waterloo is 3rd rail DC. Can the high-speed trains run on diesel on the Reading - Waterloo line?

If they are gauge cleared, yes. They have run Class 43 HSTs into Waterloo before, not sure if the 800s have made it there yet (might be difficult as they're longer vehicles so would be tight on corner clearances at curved platforms etc).

 

[Mag_seven]

How is it possible for GWR to divert to Waterloo? The trains to Paddington are under 25 kV overhead lines but the line to Waterloo is 3rd rail DC. Can the high-speed trains run on diesel on the Reading - Waterloo line?

Class 800s should be gauge cleared into Waterloo and they can operate in diesel mode when doing so.

 

[miklcct]

Class 800s should be gauge cleared into Waterloo and they can operate in diesel mode when doing so.

Are the signalling systems compatible as well?

 

[Jimini]

Class 800s should be gauge cleared into Waterloo and they can operate in diesel mode when doing so.

Aye, been a fair old while but I've been on FGW (as was) diverted services to / from Waterloo direct to Reading before, albeit on HSTs.

I've also had the pleasure (maybe only for the frequenters of this forum, but still ) of a non-stop "blockade buster" Voyager from Birmingham to Euston via. Coventry, Leamington, High Wycombe, West Ruislip and then the scenic route (I think) via. Acton Main Line, West London Jcn. and eventually to Euston, but those could theoretically be diverted to Marylebone or Paddington potentially as they use the approaches to both -- capacity, route knowledge and unit clearance notwithstanding, of course!

I think I've read on here a few times though that these routes are no longer signed by Avanti (or Virgin as-was at the time) crews.

 

[Mag_seven]

Are the signalling systems compatible as well?

Yes - non interference with signalling systems is part of the vehicle acceptance process.

 

[miklcct]

Yes - non interference with signalling systems is part of the vehicle acceptance process.

How many different signalling systems in addition to the ones used in the Western region were tested on the 802s? Does the Southern region use the same signalling system as the Western region?

 

[Mag_seven]

How many different signalling systems in addition to the ones used in the Western region were tested on the 802s? Does the Southern region use the same signalling system as the Western region?

It was not a question of testing individual signalling systems but the train manufacturer ensuring their trains did not interfere with any signalling systems that the new rolling stock would encounter.