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Timing of Engneering Works

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Watershed

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How many different signalling systems in addition to the ones used in the Western region were tested on the 802s? Does the Southern region use the same signalling system as the Western region?
Trains can't be guaranteed to be compatible based on the signalling system used. Clearance is geographically limited to where the train has been tested (or otherwise assured) to be compatible.

There are some notable differences in the way that signalling works on DC electrified lines, due to the high currents which flow through the rails.
 
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Annetts key

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There are many variations of the signalling equipment just on Western alone.

However, there are national standards that signalling equipment has to comply with. And national standards that locomotives, trains and rolling stock has to comply with.

The main issues are:
  • Track circuit compatibility
  • Axle counter compatibility

The 80X trains are in use on many areas other than just the Western, where they travel over large parts of the Western, including lines with 1970s and 1980s signalling systems.
 

al78

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The roads are busy in the run up to Easter, and on the Monday. There were very busy Wednesday and Thursday with people ‘getting away’ and to a lesser extent Friday morning. By Friday afternoon the roads were dead. Dead yesterday too. And today (so far). They’ll be busy tomorrow afternoon and Tuesday.
No they weren't. That is when I was heading north and there was periodic congestion on the M40, the most notable at junction 9 where the A34 meets. A ton of drivers trying to join the M40 northbound combined with the inability to zip-merge equates to stop-start.

The A5, A483 and M56 late afternoon/early evening were free flowing but certainly not dead. The M62 heading towards Manchester was busy as well, but moving freely.

I estimate after setting off at 9:45 am, it took me at least 45 minutes longer to get from Horsham to my first destination in Shropshire due to congestion, arriving around 2:30 pm.

Some of the roads in Salford were not dead on Saturday. The Lowry Centre had a queue to get into the car park early afternoon. This was likely because Manchester United were playing mid afternoon and some fans use this car park from where it is a short walk to the Old Trafford ground.
 

Bald Rick

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No they weren't. That is when I was heading north and there was periodic congestion on the M40, the most notable at junction 9 where the A34 meets. A ton of drivers trying to join the M40 northbound combined with the inability to zip-merge equates to stop-start.

I estimate after setting off at 9:45 am, it took me at least 45 minutes longer to get from Horsham to my first destination in Shropshire due to congestion, arriving around 2:30 pm.

That’s very interesting.

I too was on the M40 on Friday afternoon around 1700. North of High Wycombe it was as empty as I have seen it in daytime since it opened. I never once had anything in front of me delaying my progress.

If you set off from Horsham at 0945, you would have been in traffic in the morning - Good Friday morning is busy. the afternoon less so, particularly later in the day.

I was also in Shropshire in the morning, and the roads were similar to a Sunday morning - ie very quiet.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The answer to the WCML blockades, south of Crewe at least, will be the always-open (except at night) and bi-di HS2.
But that's 8-ish years away.
Before then it is actually contributing to the disruption in the places where it will interact with the existing WCML.
 

Bald Rick

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The answer to the WCML blockades, south of Crewe at least, will be the always-open (except at night) and bi-di HS2.
But that's 8-ish years away.
Before then it is actually contributing to the disruption in the places where it will interact with the existing WCML.

thats a part answer - doesn’t help commuters from MK or Watford much. Nor Freight.
 

Wolfie

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Essex is also different I'm told, Easter falls right at the end of the school break rather than the middle weekend.


Stansted seem to also accept blocks mid January to mid February. Is this similar at other airports?
You are correct about Essex. My daughter went back to school on Tuesday. I'd booked this week off based on London school holiday timings.... Doh....
 

swt_passenger

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Class 800s should be gauge cleared into Waterloo and they can operate in diesel mode when doing so.
Back when the regularly updated NR enhancement delivery plan was a thing, route clearance of Reading to Waterloo via Ascot for GW IETs was definitely in there, but I don’t think it was ever actually tested or proven. But both Mk3 hauled stock and HSTs had major speed restrictions through Ascot, but of course the relatively high profile diversions for the Reading area rebuild closures didn’t run that way; their HSTs ran from Westbury to Salisbury then up via Basingstoke and Woking. The first period of diversions then went via the Byfleet curve and into the Windsor side at Waterloo, then later on they ran via Wimbledon.

As the Reading rebuild diversions were considered a bit of a one off I don’t believe IETs were ever planned to be cleared for the routes used by HSTs at that time. But going back to the point made by @miklcct, I suspect IET route clearance is mostly about gauge clearance rather than signalling, they happily run as far as Exeter on the West of England line already.
 

Class 170101

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Back when the regularly updated NR enhancement delivery plan was a thing, route clearance of Reading to Waterloo via Ascot for GW IETs was definitely in there, but I don’t think it was ever actually tested or proven. But both Mk3 hauled stock and HSTs had major speed restrictions through Ascot, but of course the relatively high profile diversions for the Reading area rebuild closures didn’t run that way; their HSTs ran from Westbury to Salisbury then up via Basingstoke and Woking. The first period of diversions then went via the Byfleet curve and into the Windsor side at Waterloo, then later on they ran via Wimbledon.

As the Reading rebuild diversions were considered a bit of a one off I don’t believe IETs were ever planned to be cleared for the routes used by HSTs at that time. But going back to the point made by @miklcct, I suspect IET route clearance is mostly about gauge clearance rather than signalling, they happily run as far as Exeter on the West of England line already.

You would hope they might come back for Old Oak Common Station construction or is likely to be 'sump people off at Ealing Broadway and Central / District Lines forward.
 

swt_passenger

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You would hope they might come back for Old Oak Common Station construction or is likely to be 'sump people off at Ealing Broadway and Central / District Lines forward.
it’s possible, but previous discussions have suggested they can probably build OOC gradually from north to south without many full closures of the route. As the overall finished site will be much wider, enough for 8 running lines and four wide islands, there’s no real reason for the tracks through it ever closing fully.

I suspect they can build the whole future relief side before they have much impact on the existing layout, which is roughly what they did at Reading with the new platforms 12-15. Also, in this case they don’t actually need to keep any existing platforms open, which will simplify the whole project.
 

al78

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That’s very interesting.

I too was on the M40 on Friday afternoon around 1700. North of High Wycombe it was as empty as I have seen it in daytime since it opened. I never once had anything in front of me delaying my progress.

If you set off from Horsham at 0945, you would have been in traffic in the morning - Good Friday morning is busy. the afternoon less so, particularly later in the day.

I was also in Shropshire in the morning, and the roads were similar to a Sunday morning - ie very quiet.
I set out in the morning, but it was close to midday by the time I reached the M40 due to the usual traffic waves on the M25.

Shropshire roads in early afternoon were about normal. I left the M5 at J4 and headed up to Bridgnorth and Much Wenlock, and progress was the same as always. It is a lottery on single carriageway country roads as to whether or not you get stuck behind a large slow lorry for miles.

My worst journey by road visiting family took me over six and a half hours to get from Horsham to Salford. This Easter weekend was nowhere near as bad as that, I was expecting worse than I got given the dire warnings about how it was going to be the worst for road congestion for many years because of rail engineering works, staycations, no more pandemic restrictions on travel, and good weather forecast.
 

centraltrains

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The Snow Hill Lines have a weekday closure for engineering works scheduled from June 20th - 23rd (Monday - Thursday).

Engineering work is taking place between Tyseley and Birmingham Snow Hill, closing all lines throughout the day from Monday morning until Friday morning.

Thank goodness it's a few weeks after my final uni exam, although will make me think twice about applying for jobs where a train would be needed to commute.
 

The Planner

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The Snow Hill Lines have a weekday closure for engineering works scheduled from June 20th - 23rd (Monday - Thursday).



Thank goodness it's a few weeks after my final uni exam, although will make me think twice about applying for jobs where a train would be needed to commute.
This is to get rid of some long standing TSRs which are a performance problem and to sort out a set of points at Tyseley TMD that fail due to the extra tonnage of the recent increase in Small Heath freight trains. It is being put in to get it done for the Commonwealth Games as is you have trouble with getting units off Tyseley when the games are on isn't going to look good (not that its good at any time)
 

Wolfie

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Marylebone "fun" this morning with the closure of Euston. Amazing how many folk didn't seem to have known and said that they'd gone to Euston first. Unsure what more the railway can do about that, to be honest.
 

317 forever

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This is to get rid of some long standing TSRs which are a performance problem and to sort out a set of points at Tyseley TMD that fail due to the extra tonnage of the recent increase in Small Heath freight trains. It is being put in to get it done for the Commonwealth Games as is you have trouble with getting units off Tyseley when the games are on isn't going to look good (not that its good at any time)
Not only is it being done ahead of the Commonwealth Games, but also ahead of the introduction of class 196s on that line.
 

Snow1964

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DfT has just published some surveys on preferences for timing of engineering works

1. Ipsos conducted quantitative research to assess passenger preferences and tolerances for service alterations during blockades for infrastructure projects

As a standalone preference, rail travellers leaned towards multiple short-closures on the weekend (70% acceptable one weekend per month for a year compared to 62% for 7 consecutive days).
But given a direct choice between a single closure for 21 consecutive days and 30 non-consecutive days spread out over a year, passengers favoured the 21 day block (43% versus 30%). Leisure travellers were more likely to choose the longer consecutive closure and, correspondingly, weekly commuters preferred to avoid weekday disruption.

(quite a lot of results tables so not suitable for quick quotes, but some that are highly relevant to this thread)
On average, 9.5 days was the maximum number of consecutive days that rail travellers found acceptable to close a train line with changes to train services
A replacement bus service, regardless of how direct, was much less preferred than a direct train with speed restrictions
For replacement buses, access to toilets was seen as important regardless of the journey length


 
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Nicholas Lewis

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The Planner

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doubt they will take any notice of findings and just carry on as they've always done
Well you are mis-informed. This is only telling people what was already known. Plenty of blockades are planned instead of disparate weekends. However its a two way process and as much as people go on about leisure travel the industry needs revenue and thats still higher midweek.
 

TheBigD

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I'm looking forward to the usual "Why can't they divert via the S&C*?" posts that will inevitably follow...

*other diversionary routes may be mentioned
 

swt_passenger

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I'm looking forward to the usual "Why can't they divert via the S&C*?" posts that will inevitably follow...

*other diversionary routes may be mentioned
I think you forgot “using loco hauled heritage coaches”… :D
 

Sonik

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So when the railway needs maintenance when do you suggest it is done? It is more cost-efficient to have it done in blocks, or would you like smaller (but more frequent) engineering work instead which would be overall more expensive to the taxpayer?
Multi day blocks are always much, much, more efficient (vs repeated short closures) both in terms of cost and total disruption, due to the start-up and clear-down activities required for each period of work e.g. organizing protection, moving plant, materials and personnel into place. Anyone who has actually worked on track will find this very obvious; on an overnight possession the actual working time is often less than half the window.

I remember Railtrack having this argument repeatedly with Government in the early days of the WCML upgrade in the late 90s. The government would not sanction long blockades, forcing repeated weekend closures for months on end. But once the job was way behind schedule and massively over budget, Bechtel were brought in (by the Government) to try and sort it out. Their first and main recommendation? do longer blockades! The Government then went strangely quiet on the issue for some reason.

OMG did I just defend Railtrack? it's about the only positive thing I could say about that ****show...
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Multi day blocks are always much, much, more efficient (vs repeated short closures) both in terms of cost and total disruption, due to the start-up and clear-down activities required for each period of work e.g. organizing protection, moving plant, materials and personnel into place. Anyone who has actually worked on track will find this very obvious; on an overnight possession the actual working time is often less than half the window.

I remember Railtrack having this argument repeatedly with Government in the early days of the WCML upgrade in the late 90s. The government would not sanction long blockades, forcing repeated weekend closures for months on end. But once the job was way behind schedule and massively over budget, Bechtel were brought in (by the Government) to try and sort it out. Their first and main recommendation? do longer blockades! The Government then went strangely quiet on the issue for some reason.

OMG did I just defend Railtrack? it's about the only positive thing I could say about that ****show...
With the huge overhead on time and resources taking and giving up possessions let alone the added burden of electrical isolations as well then blockades or at least min 27hr possessions is the way to go. Midweek nights are sub optimal for anything except emergencies. However, NR is still sub optimal with blockades which tend to be driven by major projects on timing though whilst better than they were still optimise the work plan around what they are doing and let other deliverers in on the margins. This inevitably results in the usual level of cyclic possessions remaining so no net reduction in engineering hours are achieve in terms of passenger disruption. I also wonder with operators under NRCs where is the incentive on NR to hold down engineering access when sch4 payments are just part of the money go round now. Presumably when GBR comes into being they will have to work out what the right balance is to maximise farebox revenue over engineering access needs.
 

londonbridge

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I appreciate engineering work is planned and scheduled well in advance but it does seem a bit short sighted to carry out work in and around the Portsmouth/Southampton area on the weekend of the Great South Run.
 

The exile

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I appreciate engineering work is planned and scheduled well in advance but it does seem a bit short sighted to carry out work in and around the Portsmouth/Southampton area on the weekend of the Great South Run.
Or is it a bit short sighted to stage the Great South Run on a weekend when there is major engineering work in the Portsmouth/Southampton area?
 

The Planner

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I appreciate engineering work is planned and scheduled well in advance but it does seem a bit short sighted to carry out work in and around the Portsmouth/Southampton area on the weekend of the Great South Run.
Is that the same date every year?

With the huge overhead on time and resources taking and giving up possessions let alone the added burden of electrical isolations as well then blockades or at least min 27hr possessions is the way to go. Midweek nights are sub optimal for anything except emergencies. However, NR is still sub optimal with blockades which tend to be driven by major projects on timing though whilst better than they were still optimise the work plan around what they are doing and let other deliverers in on the margins. This inevitably results in the usual level of cyclic possessions remaining so no net reduction in engineering hours are achieve in terms of passenger disruption. I also wonder with operators under NRCs where is the incentive on NR to hold down engineering access when sch4 payments are just part of the money go round now. Presumably when GBR comes into being they will have to work out what the right balance is to maximise farebox revenue over engineering access needs.
We are massively driven by what TOCs and FOCs accept.
 

Bald Rick

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Multi day blocks are always much, much, more efficient (vs repeated short closures) both in terms of cost and total disruption

usually, but not always. There are some activities that very much suit repeatable overnight blocks - high output track renewals for example.

and there is more to efficiency than the cost of the work; the lost revenue also adds up, particularly on busy lines.
 
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