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Todmorden Curve

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pemma

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One thing I noticed today that stands out on the Witch Way bus livery is "EVERY 15 MINS" which is perhaps Transdev getting ready for when Northern Rail say their new service is faster than the bus service at peak times.
 
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Darren R

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There is a story giving an update on Curve works in today's Lancashire Telegraph, although I'm not sure it tells us anything that we didn't already know. (That said, it's worth looking at the original just to take a butcher's at the quality map they've helpfully included! ;))

Todmorden Curve completion date still realistic, say Network Rail bosses

SIGNALLING systems are now being installed at the Todmorden Curve as the project to bring the railway track back into use nears completion.

The £8.8million scheme to breathe new life into that section of the railway line remains on track to be completed by May 12, according to bosses at Network Rail.

The project would slash rail times between Burnley and Manchester, with the service also calling at Blackburn, Accrington, Rosegrove and Todmorden.

As these pictures reveal, work on the curve is continuing to progress rapidly.

A spokesman for Network Rail said: “The majority of the heavy engineering work associated with the Todmorden Curve has been carried out and we continue with the installation of the signalling systems.

“Work is progressing well and we are due to complete the project, as previously outlined, on May 12.”

The Todmorden Curve peels off the main line to the north of Stansfield Road and extends for 500 yards to near Burnley Road in Todmorden.

Campaigners have been calling for that section of the line to be reopened for a number of years, with service times between Burnley and Manchester Victoria reduced to only around 45 minutes as a result of trains being able to use the Caldervale Line into the city.

But despite work on the reinstating of the Todmorden Curve nearing completion, there remains a question mark over when the line will be fully operational.

A lack of rolling stock, as revealed by the Lancashire Telegraph last year, means the service is unlikely to be running until later this year at the earliest.

Link: http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...ate_still_realistic__say_Network_Rail_bosses/
 

Geeves

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Bit of an old picture as the actual curve has been complete for some time. They were working on the signaling last week so there is no reason to doubt it will not be ready for May.

The timetables are already done and the curve will be in use from said date, albeit just for turning stock around for the long slog back to Wigan via Atherton.

Theres no way (even if they magically found the trains to run the service) they could run it mainly because the drivers and guards needed to run it have not had chance to learn the route. Vic men do not sign up that way but I guess Leeds men could do it but even then its a long shot. Blackpool crews do not sign through Rochdale either only the East Lancs line and onwards to Leeds.
 
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Sox

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Bit of an old picture as the actual curve has been complete for some time. They were working on the signaling last week so there is no reason to doubt it will not be ready for May.

The timetables are already done and the curve will be in use from said date, albeit just for turning stock around for the long slog back to Wigan via Atherton.

Theres no way (even if they magically found the trains to run the service) they could run it mainly because the drivers and guards needed to run it have not had chance to learn the route. Vic men do not sign up that way but I guess Leeds men could do it but even then its a long shot. Blackpool crews do not sign through Rochdale either only the East Lancs line and onwards to Leeds.
I wonder if part of the reason the chord closed in the first place was the faffing about getting crews to run the trains?

In fact, the original reasons for closure/removal seem a bit murky, Beeching but not quite Beeching (the only info I can glean is that the last trains ran in 1965 but the track itself wasn't lifted until 1972). This plus the recurring issue of trying to operate a train over the Yorkshire/Lancashire boundary.

http://www.railmagazine.com/archive/#/2008/90/18
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Theres no way (even if they magically found the trains to run the service) they could run it mainly because the drivers and guards needed to run it have not had chance to learn the route. Vic men do not sign up that way but I guess Leeds men could do it but even then its a long shot. Blackpool crews do not sign through Rochdale either only the East Lancs line and onwards to Leeds.

Was it the knowledge that no rolling stock was available to run the service that made Northern Rail not give the drivers and guards the opportunity to learn the route at an early date.
 

Deerfold

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Was it the knowledge that no rolling stock was available to run the service that made Northern Rail not give the drivers and guards the opportunity to learn the route at an early date.

Given it was expected to fall outside this franchise I suspect Northern saw no reason to spend money training drvers.
 

Geeves

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Added to the fact the route has been closed since last November would of made route learning pretty hard!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Thinking of those prospective rail passengers from the Blackburn/Accrington/Burnley areas who should now be soon looking forward to the use of the Todmorden chord for their new services to Manchester, which now look to be timed as something Father Christmas might bring in December, may I ask what is the logic behind extending the Rochdale service to Todmorden, when than does not afford a connection with the Blackpool North to York services that currently now have restarted using the Copy Pit line.
 

Darren R

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From the Government web page linked above:

....a second train will also be released to run on the newly reopened Todmorden curve.

Well that's useful - a single train. If that is meant to be taken literally that's enough rolling stock to provide one train every three hours. I don't think the bus operators will be quaking just yet!
 

YorkshireBear

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From the Government web page linked above:



Well that's useful - a single train. If that is meant to be taken literally that's enough rolling stock to provide one train every three hours. I don't think the bus operators will be quaking just yet!

One train is all that is needed to extend the Manchester to Todmorden services to Blackburn i believe.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Well that's useful - a single train. If that is meant to be taken literally that's enough rolling stock to provide one train every three hours. I don't think the bus operators will be quaking just yet!

Perhaps our contributors who decry the 15-minute Lancashire Witch X43 bus service, saying the train will be far quicker, will now be at pains to extol the generosity of a rail service than sees a train every three hours, should that be the case.

Once again, I can mentally envisage the popping of champagne corks at the TransDev depot..:D
 

pemma

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Perhaps our contributors who decry the 15-minute Lancashire Witch X43 bus service, saying the train will be far quicker, will now be at pains to extol the generosity of a rail service than sees a train every three hours, should that be the case.

It'll be a train every hour.

As I pointed out in response to the same comment by Darren R in another thread:
The services showing terminating here or starts here on this list: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/TOD/2014/05/19/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt will become trains to/from Blackburn at the December timetable change.

The one thing I can spot is (unless the times are adjusted) the morning peak arrivals in Manchester would be 07:33 and 08:33 with the evening peak departures 16:54 and 17:54. Those are good times for someone with a 09:00-17:30 job in central Manchester but not very good for someone who works 08:30-17:00
 
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Darren R

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Yes - I'd failed to take into account the fact that it's just the extension from Todmorden to Blackburn that will change from December. However, I don't believe a unit can get from Todmorden to Blackburn and back in under an hour, which means it'll still need more than one extra unit. (Unless I'm being really dumb - something I cannot rule out!) Are other units to be freed up by Northern's planners squeezing yet more drops of blood out of the proverbial stone? They do seem to be very good at that!
 

IrishDave

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Yes - I'd failed to take into account the fact that it's just the extension from Todmorden to Blackburn that will change from December. However, I don't believe a unit can get from Todmorden to Blackburn and back in under an hour, which means it'll still need more than one extra unit. (Unless I'm being really dumb - something I cannot rule out!) Are other units to be freed up by Northern's planners squeezing yet more drops of blood out of the proverbial stone? They do seem to be very good at that!

In the May TT, the trains which terminate at Todmorden have a 25-minute turnaround - 85 minutes should be enough to get to Todmorden Blackburn and back (Hall Royd Jn-Blackburn is currently about 33 minutes on the Blackpool-York) with about a 15-minute turnaround at Blackburn.
 
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Darren R

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In the May TT, the trains which terminate at Todmorden have a 25-minute turnaround - 85 minutes should be enough to get to Todmorden and back (Hall Royd Jn-Blackburn is currently about 33 minutes on the Blackpool-York) with about a 15-minute turnaround at Blackburn.

Ah - penny's finally dropped! :D :oops:
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Sox

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More east Lancs railway mania (the doubling is more substantive than I thought with only small amount of single track remaining):

The detailed proposals will dual the single line sections of line from Clitheroe, Blackburn, Darwen and Bolton to the city bringing 14 extra trains a day and a half-hourly service from between rush hours.

They ensure the track will be doubled for its full length between Blackburn and Bolton, with the single-line Sough Tunnel south of Darwen and Farnworth Tunnel in Bolton upgraded.

Construction will start in May 2015 with the major capital works completed by the autumn for the every 30-minute services introduction in December 2016.

The upgrade will prepare the line from Bolton to Clitheroe for the future completion of proposed electrification between Manchester and the town.

Investment in Entwistle, Clitheroe, Whalley, Ramsgreave and Wilpshire and Langho stations is included.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/11127250.__20m_East_Lancs_rail_upgrade_set_for_green_light/

and...

A RIBBLE Valley man has launched a campaign for two train stations to be refurbished and reopened after a ‘25-year’ wait.

Peter Brass, 53, from Clitheroe, is calling on the borough council, Lancashire County Council and the government to re-open the stations in Gisburn and Chatburn after the idea was first mentioned in the late 1980s

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/11129675.Calls_for_forgotten_Ribble_Valley_railway_stations_to_be_re_opened/
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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How many more small Lancashire villages are going to request that railway stations within their environs are going to be re-opened. Gisburn has a population of just over 500 and Chatburn in the region of 1100. What onward extension of the current rail service that terminates at Clitheroe is thought to be of use use to either of these two villages, as the current onward Hellifield service is not exactly one that would be said to meet the transport needs of any community, large or small, as can be borne out by the times when this service runs and the days when it runs.

Both settlements are served by both the 180 and X80 bus services to their nearest transport hub of Clitheroe, that itself has rail links to Blackburn and to Manchester.
 

CalderRail

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Tell both Villages that they can have the railway stations re-opened if they build 3000 more houses and the housebuilding contractor builds the (non-trackside) station buildings & access

County Council would love that sort of deal. I know the Metropolitan Borough here would jump at it if there were places anyone could fit that many houses.
 

Darren R

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If I had a pound for each time the Lancashire Telegraph has reported that full re-doubling is to happen between Blackburn and Bolton I'd have... well, two or three quid anyway! :D

The information from those forum members in the know is that full re-doubling is not on the cards - just extensions to the passing loops at Darwen; quite enough to run a robust half-hourly timetable.

I think the Telegraph (and possibly the council too) is getting a little carried away.
 

30907

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I wonder if part of the reason the chord closed in the first place was the faffing about getting crews to run the trains?

Unlikely, given that the whole local service over Copy Pit (which is what used the chord) was given the chop along with the remaining stations (Portsmouth and Burnley MR).
 

Geeves

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Electric trains to Clitheroe? Ill believe it when I see it!

Maybe to Blackburn one day if the wires ever make it over from Preston the other way... 25 years from now ha

I like that picture on the Telegraph website too. Maybe thats how they plan to improve the service by reducing the track width from standard to Meter gauge! Nice little narrow gauge switch in the background there too, sure the staff will enjoy using those lol
 
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MidnightFlyer

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If I had a pound for each time the Lancashire Telegraph has reported that full re-doubling is to happen between Blackburn and Bolton I'd have... well, two or three quid anyway! :D

The information from those forum members in the know is that full re-doubling is not on the cards - just extensions to the passing loops at Darwen; quite enough to run a robust half-hourly timetable.

I think the Telegraph (and possibly the council too) is getting a little carried away.

What's this, the Lancashire Telegraph's speaking nonsensical gibberish? Well I never!
 

WatcherZero

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Looking at the Blackburn Council document in question, scope of works is:

Extension of passing loop at Darwen 1410 metres to the south and 1310 metres to the north of the existing loop. 5km of new track, 5km tamping, 1.3km of track sluing, 7 new signals, 5 replacement/modifications of existing signals, 2 full bridge redecks, 3 retaining wall modifications, telecoms upgrade. Four upgrades by Northern at rail stations north of Blackburn (Clitheroe, Whalley, Langho, Ramsgreave) and at Entwistle to improve the overall business case and bring them up to the average Lancashire standard. In addition TfGM will pay for the upgrade of Bromley Cross and Hall i'th Wood. TfGM has been advising Blackburn/Lancashire on NR rail schemes process and costs.

NR have presented a fixed cost price and an emerging process price to Lancashire County Council, the emerging process price is based on 10,000 passes of a rail risk model and an 80% confidence level. TfGM has advised to choose the emerging cost option and Todmorden, Ormskirk and Buckshaw were all previously done on the emerging cost option by Lancashire CC. The emerging cost option offers presently at least a £808k (5.8%) saving with the prospect of further savings being identified and based on advice from Lancashire CC and TfGM is the reccomended option for Blackburn council to choose.
 
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Sox

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Looking at the Blackburn Council document in question, scope of works is:

Extension of passing loop at Darwen 1410 metres to the south and 1310 metres to the north of the existing loop. 5km of new track, 5km tamping, 1.3km of track sluing, 7 new signals, 5 replacement/modifications of existing signals, 2 full bridge redecks, 3 retaining wall modifications, telecoms upgrade. Four upgrades by Northern at rail stations north of Blackburn (Clitheroe, Whalley, Langho, Ramsgreave) and at Entwistle to improve the overall business case and bring them up to the average Lancashire standard. In addition TfGM will pay for the upgrade of Bromley Cross and Hall i'th Wood. TfGM has been advising Blackburn/Lancashire on NR rail schemes process and costs.

NR have presented a fixed cost price and an emerging process price to Lancashire County Council, the emerging process price is based on 10,000 passes of a rail risk model and an 80% confidence level. TfGM has advised to choose the emerging cost option and Todmorden, Ormskirk and Buckshaw were all previously done on the emerging cost option by Lancashire CC. The emerging cost option offers presently at least a £808k (5.8%) saving with the prospect of further savings being identified and based on advice from Lancashire CC and TfGM is the reccomended option for Blackburn council to choose.

A very comprehensive summary, I think the LT might have to renegotiate their poet's licence :)
 
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