Todmorden Curve

[Llama]

Driver training (for the Manchester Victoria drivers who will be running the services) starts this week, initially using existing services (York-Blackpools) but in coming weeks a route-learning special will be running over the route until May when the service commences.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Driver training (for the Manchester Victoria drivers who will be running the services) starts this week, initially using existing services (York-Blackpools) but in coming weeks a route-learning special will be running over the route until May when the service commences.

So will the services in question (presumably not EVERY York-Blackpool service!) run to Todmorden then reverse via the curve (and vice-versa)? If so, it seems quite a clever way of overcoming the lack of any spare units to get the crews passed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So will the services in question (presumably not EVERY York-Blackpool service!) run to Todmorden then reverse via the curve (and vice-versa)? If so, it seems quite a clever way of overcoming the lack of any spare units to get the crews passed.

Forgive my lack of understanding of your posting, but are you saying that some of the Northern Rail York to Blackpool services (and obviously the return Blackpool to York services) will not go their normal route via the junction used at present which bypasses Todmorden but some of these will take the newly reinstated Todmorden Chord into Todmorden station, then having to reverse to continue their normal journeys?

 

[Llama]

So will the services in question (presumably not EVERY York-Blackpool service!) run to Todmorden then reverse via the curve (and vice-versa)? If so, it seems quite a clever way of overcoming the lack of any spare units to get the crews passed.

That won't be necessary, drivers are already considered to 'sign' NW7006 line of route between Todmorden Viaduct Jn and Stansfield Hall Jn even though they have only traversed as much of it as they need to to get behind PN318 signal to change ends. Drivers will be expected to familiarise themselves with the characteristics and risks at Stansfield Hall Jn itself from maps etc.

 

[Ant158]

Which platform is the service to terminate in at Blackburn, with the bay on the manchester side of the station, always thought it seems daft how platform 4 gets so many trains. How will the Todmordon service affect the timetables of the other trains passing through Blackburn.?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Which platform is the service to terminate in at Blackburn, with the bay on the manchester side of the station, always thought it seems daft how platform 4 gets so many trains. How will the Todmordon service affect the timetables of the other trains passing through Blackburn.?

Assuming nothing changes, not conclusive calculations but I would expect it to be something like: Todmorden xx30, Burnley Manchester Road xx48, Accrington xx57, Blackburn xy05. Using Accrington as a yardstick that puts it roughly 5 mins behind the Blackpool South and 25 mins before the Blackpool North service.

The other way would be something like Blackburn xy16, Accrington xy24, Burnley Manchester Road xy33, Todmorden xy51. Using Accrington once again that puts it 20 mins behind the York and 15 mins before the Colne.

Those times towards Blackburn however leave it right in the middle of the Blackpool South and Man Vic services from Daisyfield Jn to Blackburn, so I'm not sure how that will be altered, similarly I don't know if Rose Grove will make the cut, that might make it a bit tight for a comfortable turn around at Blackburn.

Platforming shouldn't be too bad, sending the terminating service into platform 2 is easiest, nothing is due eastbound during its likely times at Blackburn and the crossover to access it is just outside the station: the crossover into platform 1 is at the other side of Blackburn Tunnel, and the crossover out of platform 4 is at Daisyfield Jn!

I wouldn't say it was stupid how so much traffic uses platform 4, more it's stupid how all the facilities and structures were focused on just the island platform...

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I wouldn't say it was stupid how so much traffic uses platform 4, more it's stupid how all the facilities and structures were focused on just the island platform...

For many years, all services used the island platform. A large chunk of what is now platform 4 had its platform face removed. The station was rebuilt to replicate historic usage, thus locating the facilities on the island platform was sensible in that context - but short-sighted given the growth in services. Remember, until the late 1980's, Blackburn had only the Blackpool to Colne service (hourly) and the Blackburn to Manchester service (hourly).

 

[wasi]

Great to hear the service will finally up and running come May, good things come to those who wait

Talking of Rose Grove, I passed through it yesterday morning on my way from Bamber Bridge to Nelson (on a pacer , "shudders" ) and noticed some work going on at the station. Looked like new electronic information boards being installed to me. Im assuming as the new "Todmorden Curve" service is calling there to enable passengers to change for the Colne/ Blackpool South line?

So am I right in assuming the service will look something like this.....

Manchester Victoria > Mills Hill > Castleton >Rochdale >Smithy Bridge > Littleborough >Todmorden > Burnley Manchester Road > Rose Grove >Accrington > Church & Oswaldtwistle (Sundays Only) >Blackburn.

????

 

[Llama]

That is the pattern that has been suggested to me, although I hadn't heard about the stop at Church.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That won't be necessary, drivers are already considered to 'sign' NW7006 line of route between Todmorden Viaduct Jn and Stansfield Hall Jn even though they have only traversed as much of it as they need to to get behind PN318 signal to change ends. Drivers will be expected to familiarise themselves with the characteristics and risks at Stansfield Hall Jn itself from maps etc.

The (presumably Victoria) crews would sign there I agree, but I'd have thought the (Preston/Blackpool/Leeds) crews that run the York to Blackpool services wouldn't necessarily sign it. That's why I was surprised that those services were going to be used for crew training purposes, as they would need to run via Todmorden and reverse as I suggested. Better than depriving Northern of a much needed unit, but still not ideal.

Or do you mean that the crews that will run the service won't currently sign Copy Pit (because why would they?) so will presumably learn the road by accompanying drivers of the York-Blackpools from Hebden Bridge to Burnley Manchester Road? I.e. The curve itself is not the issue.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That is the pattern that has been suggested to me, although I hadn't heard about the stop at Church.

It was mentioned as being a Sundays only stop when the route was first discussed many months ago.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

For many years, all services used the island platform. A large chunk of what is now platform 4 had its platform face removed. The station was rebuilt to replicate historic usage, thus locating the facilities on the island platform was sensible in that context - but short-sighted given the growth in services. Remember, until the late 1980's, Blackburn had only the Blackpool to Colne service (hourly) and the Blackburn to Manchester service (hourly).

Indeed, I am aware that for a very long time there were a handful of services a day using p4 and that was it. I was told by a cleaner on Blackburn station a long time ago (about 2006 I'd guess) that the original scope of the rebuilding works was to include doing up platform 4 to the same standard as the island and bringing it into regular use, alas time and money ran out and it ended up with two bus shelters; the decision to move the booking office to the island platform was probably in light of that since I believe that was literally a last minute job. Of course this was rectified a couple of years ago and to their credit it's fairly decent now, it's just bemusing (alas not surprising) that it wasn't done with the rest of the project.

That is the pattern that has been suggested to me, although I hadn't heard about the stop at Church.

As Paul says, that was bounded around a while back, well before the various setbacks I believe.

... but I'd have thought the (Preston/Blackpool/Leeds) crews that run the York to Blackpool services wouldn't necessarily sign it. ...

Just Blackpool and Leeds men, there's no Northern traincrew depot at Preston. I got the impression from the post you quote that Man Vic men will work the services, so they need to learn Copy Pit, but I will wait for them to confirm that.

 

[Llama]

Man Vic men will work all the (Origin varies)-Man Vic-Todmorden-Burnley-Blackburn services.

The missing route knowledge for Man Vic men is from Stansfield Hall Jn (the junction with the Up / Down East Lancs lines at the 'far' end of the Todmorden curve) to Daisyfield Jn (where the Clitheroe trains take the Up & Down Hellifield line).

Therefore Man Vic crews will need to be trained on Stansfield Hall Jn to Daisyfield Jn. The first few driver instructors will need to do this on the York-Blackpools because these are the only trains currently available - once a few instructors have been passed on the route then they will be able to work the R/L special, which will allow drivers to be trained in greater numbers. Only enough drivers need to be trained initially to be able to theoretically cover all the service trains via Burnley - obviously once the service trains start there will be no need (and probably no stock available) for the R/L special.

 

[Darren R]

It's official! (Well not quite, but it's on RTT at least! )

The first scheduled passenger service is the 0820 departure from Blackburn to Manchester Victoria on Sunday 17th May.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y38464/2015/05/17/advanced

List of weekday departures from Burnley Manchester Road:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BYM/2015/05/18/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

There are some weird and wonderful services that should cause some furrowed brows at departure screens:
0615 Blackburn to Southport via Atherton
0619 Blackpool North to Blackburn
0930 Bolton to Blackburn
1520 Blackburn to Clitheroe (which, if you miss it the first time, you can catch the second time round at 1724!)
1720 Blackburn to Blackburn
1621 Blackpool North to Blackburn

Am I correct in thinking that a through train constitutes a a valid permitted route for ticketing purposes?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I've been waiting to post this gif for months. As such:

 

[Darren R]

I've been waiting to post this gif for months. As such:

And I've been checking RTT on a daily basis for the last two weeks!

 

[edwin_m]

There are some weird and wonderful services that should cause some furrowed brows at departure screens:
0615 Blackburn to Southport via Atherton
0619 Blackpool North to Blackburn
0930 Bolton to Blackburn
1520 Blackburn to Clitheroe (which, if you miss it the first time, you can catch the second time round at 1724!)
1720 Blackburn to Blackburn
1621 Blackpool North to Blackburn

Am I correct in thinking that a through train constitutes a a valid permitted route for ticketing purposes?

I imagine these will be advertised as separate trains for public consumption even if they run through on one headcode in the working timetable.

 

[Deerfold]

Am I correct in thinking that a through train constitutes a a valid permitted route for ticketing purposes?

I believe so - though I think you're supposed to get off the first time you arrive at your destination. Not sure how that applies to getting on the first time it stops at your arrival.

 

[Aictos]

For many years, all services used the island platform. A large chunk of what is now platform 4 had its platform face removed. The station was rebuilt to replicate historic usage, thus locating the facilities on the island platform was sensible in that context - but short-sighted given the growth in services. Remember, until the late 1980's, Blackburn had only the Blackpool to Colne service (hourly) and the Blackburn to Manchester service (hourly).

When did the Leeds to Blackpool North service start callng there? I remember stayng with my grandparents in Accrington or holidaying in Blackpool and the train we got from Leeds or Blackpool North always called there.

I'm referring to late 80s and early 90s though.

 

[158756]

It's official! (Well not quite, but it's on RTT at least! )

The first scheduled passenger service is the 0820 departure from Blackburn to Manchester Victoria on Sunday 17th May.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y38464/2015/05/17/advanced

List of weekday departures from Burnley Manchester Road:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BYM/2015/05/18/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

There are some weird and wonderful services that should cause some furrowed brows at departure screens:
0615 Blackburn to Southport via Atherton
0619 Blackpool North to Blackburn
0930 Bolton to Blackburn
1520 Blackburn to Clitheroe (which, if you miss it the first time, you can catch the second time round at 1724!)
1720 Blackburn to Blackburn
1621 Blackpool North to Blackburn

Am I correct in thinking that a through train constitutes a a valid permitted route for ticketing purposes?

How long before someone complains about the 59 minute connection at Rose Grove?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How long before someone complains about the 59 minute connection at Rose Grove?

Rose Grove has not seen much in the way of railway service upgrading for quite a long time. I remember it being quite a good area to visit in the late 1950's from a steam locomotive point of view with its locomotive shed always having something of interest to young-ish trainspotters.

Long gone indeed are the days when Rose Grove had services on the Great Harwood loop line that served the railway stations at Padiham, Simonstone and Great Harwood.

 

[Welshman]

When did the Leeds to Blackpool North service start callng there? I remember stayng with my grandparents in Accrington or holidaying in Blackpool and the train we got from Leeds or Blackpool North always called there.

I'm referring to late 80s and early 90s though.[/QUOTE/]

As far as I can remember, the regular Leeds/Bradford to Blackpool Central, then North, service has always called at Blackburn.

However, this was reduced to just one per day in the 1970s, and may have ceased altogether for a while during the winter months.

A far cry from today's hourly service!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

When did the Leeds to Blackpool North service start callng there? I remember stayng with my grandparents in Accrington or holidaying in Blackpool and the train we got from Leeds or Blackpool North always called there.

I'm referring to late 80s and early 90s though.

There was no regular passenger service over the Copy Pit route for many years (just seasonal West Yorkshire to Blackpool services if I remember correctly - shown in my 1983/4 NRT).

The forerunner to the current service commenced when the Burnley Building Society (headquartered in Burnley) merged with the Provincial Building Society (headquartered in Bradford) to form the National and Provincial Building Society. A service was put on for workers - to Bradford am, return pm. The merger occurred in 1982, I'm not sure when the rail service commenced but around that time I would suggest.

The service slowly evolved into the hourly York - Blackpool service we have today. The initial service was provided under the 'Spellar Amendment' which allowed new services to be terminated at a later date without going through the usual closure process. At the time this was quite novel as not many lines were re-opening / new services commencing in those days.

I see that I first used the service in October 1984 - so a reasonably frequent service must have been running by then. I changed at Bradford Interchange into a loco hauled service to Leeds and Hull. Those were the days, class 31 and 4 coaches up the incline out of Bradford, past the depot on the right.

In August 1986 I see that I was forced to take a rail replacement coach between Rose Grove and Hebden Bridge. The reason was deformation of Holme Tunnel and the line was closed for repair - inserting steel rings. The line closure for 20 weeks last year replaced those initial repairs!

 

[chrissawer]

Buses are replacing trains between Hebden Bridge and Rochdale/Blackpool this morning.

More work on the curve, junction or signalling?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

How long before someone complains about the 59 minute connection at Rose Grove?

A 9 second, cross platform, connection at Rose Grove would be too long.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Rose Grove has not seen much in the way of railway service upgrading for quite a long time. I remember it being quite a good area to visit in the late 1950's from a steam locomotive point of view with its locomotive shed always having something of interest to young-ish trainspotters.

Long gone indeed are the days when Rose Grove had services on the Great Harwood loop line that served the railway stations at Padiham, Simonstone and Great Harwood.

Long gone are the loco sheds - replaced by the M65 in the early 1980's.

 

[Darren R]

How long before someone complains about the 59 minute connection at Rose Grove?

How long before someone complains that most of the Timing Loads are for Pacers?! It'll be interesting to see what the rolling stock actually is. To judge by the look of resignation on the faces of drivers as they round the curve into Accrington, it won't just be passengers and members of this Forum who are hoping for something with bogies!

 

[Llama]

Route-learning special starts tomorrow:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea.../0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pass&order=wtt&toc=NT

 

[Oxfordblues]

Can someone with detailed inside knowledge of the Conditions of Carriage please confirm that if I bought a Single from Blackburn to Ramsgreave & Wilpshire and boarded the 15:20 departure my ticket would be valid for the entire circuit?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y38487/2015/05/18/advanced

If so it could prove to be a cheap and popular railtour!

 

[mirodo]

Can someone with detailed inside knowledge of the Conditions of Carriage please confirm that if I bought a Single from Blackburn to Ramsgreave & Wilpshire and boarded the 15:20 departure my ticket would be valid for the entire circuit?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y38487/2015/05/18/advanced

If so it could prove to be a cheap and popular railtour!

It would depend on whether it was advertised as a through train, wouldn't it?

 

[pemma]

I imagine these will be advertised as separate trains for public consumption even if they run through on one headcode in the working timetable.

They may miss a trick if they do that.

These two workings:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y38444/2015/05/25/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y30457/2015/05/25/advanced

Advertised as through workings gives a commuter service from Burnley to Salford Central and Salford Crescent as well as Manchester Victoria.

I notice the first would allow someone from Burnley wanting to get to central Manchester at around 08:30 to catch a train from Burnley Manchester Rd at 07:38, while doing the same commute on bus would require you to catch a bus at 07:07. So while the Witchway buses are nice and run more frequently, I think getting up half an hour later could appeal to some people.