TPE cancellations

[Old Yard Dog]

Yesterday the both 1643 and 1843 TPE trains from Newcastle to Liverpool were cancelled despite the more-or-less on-time arrival of the incoming stock. Does anybody know why? The staff on the 1743 thought it was something to do with problems getting taxis to get staff to the right places. That's a new one on me.

Does anybody know what happened to the two units? Did they run empty?

 

[irish_rail]

Yesterday the both 1643 and 1843 TPE trains from Newcastle to Liverpool were cancelled despite the more-or-less on-time arrival of the incoming stock. Does anybody know why? The staff on the 1743 thought it was something to do with problems getting taxis to get staff to the right places. That's a new one on me.

Does anybody know what happened to the two units? Did they run empty?

Can't answer your question I'm afraid but I can confirm there is a severe taxi driver shortage post brexit that for some reason the media are happy to ignore. So totally believable that there were issues with crews getting taxis especially at a weekend...

 

[Andyh82]

Says “cancelled at the train operators request” on real-time trains, which doesn’t help!

 

[Polarbear]

Yesterday the both 1643 and 1843 TPE trains from Newcastle to Liverpool were cancelled despite the more-or-less on-time arrival of the incoming stock. Does anybody know why? The staff on the 1743 thought it was something to do with problems getting taxis to get staff to the right places. That's a new one on me.

Does anybody know what happened to the two units? Did they run empty?

I was booked on the 19:24 from Manchester Victoria yesterday (the 16:43 ex Newcastle), which was cancelled due to crew not being available due to earlier disruption. I didn't see any ECS whilst I was waiting for the 20:11 service.

I assume the disruption meant that rosters were screwed up and crews risked running out of hours by working the service. If there's no stand by crew, the not a great deal that can be done on the day.

 

[Liverpool 507]

Two 802s were trapped on Edge Hill depot yesterday (which closes at 8am). Those two above services were caped to prevent an imbalance of units.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

So have I got this right? TPE left two trains locked in the garage in Liverpool on Saturday morning as they didn't need as many sets as services weren't running north of Newcastle due to engineering works. As a consequence, schedules were messed up and trains would end up in the wrong places for Sunday morning. So they cancelled two busy Saturday evening workings to leave a couple of sets in Newcastle. You couldn't make it up. Good job the Toon played on Friday night.

(Another staff member told me that the cancellations were due to an incident in Liverpool earlier in the day which didn't make sense to me at the time. But it ties in with L507's explanation)

 

[Trothy]

They didn't leave them there on purpose. The trains were due to work two early morning services out of Lime St which were cancelled due to issues with the units that could not be rectified before Edge Hill depot closed at 8am.

 

[Watershed]

The real issue here is that Edge Hill depot closes during the daytime, which is a pure cost cutting move to allow it to operate with one shift rather than two.

Most of the time this works OK (albeit things have to be planned carefully to ensure all sets come on and off at suitable times), but when things go wrong it really doesn't help, as you can see in this instance.

 

[Carlisle]

Can't answer your question I'm afraid but I can confirm there is a severe taxi driver shortage post brexit that for some reason the media are happy to ignore. So totally believable that there were issues with crews getting taxis especially at a weekend...

I’ve often heard when there’s a shortage of taxis they prefer private meter work rather than TOC jobs that’ll mainly pay a set price, but no idea if that’s actually true or not .

 

[Taunton]

I’ve often heard when there’s a shortage of taxis they prefer private meter work rather than TOC jobs that’ll mainly pay a set price, but no idea if that’s actually true or not .

That again would be a TOC own goal if their purchasing department has screwed the taxi contract rate so far down that they become last priority when taxis are busy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That again would be a TOC own goal if their purchasing department has screwed the taxi contract rate so far down that they become last priority when taxis are busy.

Almost every problem in business comes down to "the race to the bottom". Not who can do it better, who can do it cheaper.

"Welcome to Bletchley Airlines. Please sit back and relax and enjoy your journey, safe in the knowledge that every single safety-critical component in our multimillion pound airliner was produced by the lowest bidder".

 

[bramling]

Yesterday the both 1643 and 1843 TPE trains from Newcastle to Liverpool were cancelled despite the more-or-less on-time arrival of the incoming stock. Does anybody know why? The staff on the 1743 thought it was something to do with problems getting taxis to get staff to the right places. That's a new one on me.

Does anybody know what happened to the two units? Did they run empty?

It isn’t great, but balancing the stock is important, if you don’t do it then quite simply there will be a cancellation down the line.

From what we see on here, do we presume what should have been two Newcastle finishers never made it there?

 

[RailWonderer]

Almost every problem in business comes down to "the race to the bottom". Not who can do it better, who can do it cheaper.

"Welcome to Bletchley Airlines. Please sit back and relax and enjoy your journey, safe in the knowledge that every single safety-critical component in our multimillion pound airliner was produced by the lowest bidder".

The rule in business is to know where and when to scrimp and save and where and when to spend the big money. Knowing when to economise and when to be generous is one of the rules of life.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I’ve often heard when there’s a shortage of taxis they prefer private meter work rather than TOC jobs that’ll mainly pay a set price, but no idea if that’s actually true or not .

That again would be a TOC own goal if their purchasing department has screwed the taxi contract rate so far down that they become last priority when taxis are busy.

I'm not suggesting taxis are choosing meter work but the fixed fare from Newcastle to Heaton is £5.50 and is a fair bit below what the meter fare would be. Being regular guaranteed work is an advantage at 5/6/7am during the week when the taxis will most likely be quiet but there can be delays for returning train crews on a Friday Saturday night. Plus it can take up to 3 months for the taxi drivers to actually receive the payment.

It isn’t great, but balancing the stock is important, if you don’t do it then quite simply there will be a cancellation down the line.

From what we see on here, do we presume what should have been two Newcastle finishers never made it there?

Probably. There were spare units at Heaton so these were utilised to at least get services covered later in the day although some train crews were displaced and needed pass rides to get back in position.

 

[8J]

They didn't leave them there on purpose. The trains were due to work two early morning services out of Lime St which were cancelled due to issues with the units that could not be rectified before Edge Hill depot closed at 8am.

There wasn't any issues with the units. They were successfully prepped by Hitachi staff and ready to go out in service but the mainline drivers were unable to travel from the depot at Lime Street due to the lack of avaliable taxi's.
Therefore, only 1 of the 3 scheduled departures from Edge Hill depot made it off (5S07).

The consequence of this was that two unit diagrams were uncovered as they were still at Edge Hill. As has previously been mentioned, Alstom (who run the depot at Edge Hill, fuel 802s for TPE and control the movement of trains on/off the sidings) don't have a PIC (person in charge/shunter) on duty through the day. Therefore it wasn't possible to get these units off the depot and in to traffic.

You can't just send a spare from another depot out as the consequence will be an imbalance of units at Edge Hill later that evening (the sidings and depot run at close to capacity as it is). Therefore, the decision to cancel the affected services was rather unavoidable.

 

[Trothy]

There wasn't any issues with the units. They were successfully prepped by Hitachi staff and ready to go out in service but the mainline drivers were unable to travel from the depot at Lime Street due to the lack of avaliable taxi's.
Therefore, only 1 of the 3 scheduled departures from Edge Hill depot made it off (5S07).

The consequence of this was that two unit diagrams were uncovered as they were still at Edge Hill. As has previously been mentioned, Alstom (who run the depot at Edge Hill, fuel 802s for TPE and control the movement of trains on/off the sidings) don't have a PIC (person in charge/shunter) on duty through the day. Therefore it wasn't possible to get these units off the depot and in to traffic.

You can't just send a spare from another depot out as the consequence will be an imbalance of units at Edge Hill later that evening (the sidings and depot run at close to capacity as it is). Therefore, the decision to cancel the affected services was rather unavoidable.

Shows the level of disconnect in passing on the correct information within the industry really doesn't it. I was the Signaller sat on Lime St that morning and even I wasn't told the correct reason for the cancellations.

 

[Class 170101]

There wasn't any issues with the units. They were successfully prepped by Hitachi staff and ready to go out in service but the mainline drivers were unable to travel from the depot at Lime Street due to the lack of avaliable taxi's.
Therefore, only 1 of the 3 scheduled departures from Edge Hill depot made it off (5S07).

How many units came with 5S07? One or two?

The consequence of this was that two unit diagrams were uncovered as they were still at Edge Hill. As has previously been mentioned, Alstom (who run the depot at Edge Hill, fuel 802s for TPE and control the movement of trains on/off the sidings) don't have a PIC (person in charge/shunter) on duty through the day. Therefore it wasn't possible to get these units off the depot and in to traffic.


You can't just send a spare from another depot out as the consequence will be an imbalance of units at Edge Hill later that evening (the sidings and depot run at close to capacity as it is). Therefore, the decision to cancel the affected services was rather unavoidable.

Heaton to Heaton (Control) Diagrams with perhaps the early cancelled and the late back to maintain the balance with the units stuck at Edge Hill suggests that might have been done here.

Perhaps more fundamentally though why is a major depot closed for access at 8am on a Sunday morning? Seems rather early for a Sunday given generally how late a start up Sundays are anyway.

 

[Geeves]

I was working the announcers desk at Vic and both times it just showed up with "a problem under investigation" I changed the reason on both to "A train late from the depot" seeing as there is no option for train locked in the depot. Some replacement trains came off Ardwick later on not in service. Not great.

 

[8J]

How many units came with 5S07? One or two?



Heaton to Heaton (Control) Diagrams with perhaps the early cancelled and the late back to maintain the balance with the units stuck at Edge Hill suggests that might have been done here.

Perhaps more fundamentally though why is a major depot closed for access at 8am on a Sunday morning? Seems rather early for a Sunday given generally how late a start up Sundays are anyway.

Only one unit came off on 5S07. It would be difficult to shunt units around, couple them and get them off before the PIC went off duty. I don't think depot drivers are competent on coupling/uncoupling 802s there and if truth be told, not all mainline drivers at Liverpool have been trained to either.

The platform availability at Lime Street is also very limited for a 10 car 802, bare in mind they have 26 metre long vehicles so with a 10 car, only platform 6, 9 and 10 can be used.

There was a 10 car 802 that came off Edge Hill about a month back and went out in service on 1P17 (07:54 off Lime Street) and that used platform 6 but caused some minor delays to a couple of other services due to the replatforming requirements.

Also, this incident happened on Saturday morning, not Sunday morning.

I was working the announcers desk at Vic and both times it just showed up with "a problem under investigation" I changed the reason on both to "A train late from the depot" seeing as there is no option for train locked in the depot. Some replacement trains came off Ardwick later on not in service. Not great.

There is no excuse for control not answering the phone. TPE control have an obsession it seems of saying that most delays are being caused by "a problem currently under investigation".

 

[yorksrob]

I notice that some depots have a little staff platform on the running line.

Would such an installation have provided a usable alternative in this instance ?

 

[Watershed]

Perhaps more fundamentally though why is a major depot closed for access at 8am on a Sunday morning? Seems rather early for a Sunday given generally how late a start up Sundays are anyway.

Because it's staffed with a single shift.

I notice that some depots have a little staff platform on the running line.

Would such an installation have provided a usable alternative in this instance ?

Travelling pass on a train to Edge Hill and then walking (it's under 15 mins to the depot), or even just hailing a taxi from the rank, would both have been quicker and easier. Unfortunately Edge Hill station is closed on a Sunday and SOP dictates that a certain size and kind of taxi must be used "due to Covid", and that it must be from an approved supplier list.

 

[yorksrob]

Because it's staffed with a single shift.


Travelling pass on a train to Edge Hill and then walking (it's under 15 mins to the depot), or even just hailing a taxi from the rank, would both have been quicker and easier. Unfortunately Edge Hill station is closed on a Sunday and SOP dictates that a certain size and kind of taxi must be used "due to Covid", and that it must be from an approved supplier list.

Sound's like stopping something at Edge Hill would be a reasonable work-around in future !

 

[IanXC]

There's probably an argument that a few.more 'staff halts' would be a very good way of taking cost out. Not only do you save the Taxi fares, you increase reliability and reduce the time allocated in driver diagrams as Taxis have to allow significantly longer road journeys than you'd need for travel by train.

 

[DanNCL]

This issue led to a gap in excess of 4 hours between stopping Northbound services at Chester-le-Street on Saturday, and TPE's failure to provide any sort of replacement service, simply telling people instead to wait for the 13:02, considering the 4 hour wait for that from the first of the cancelled services (the 09:02) it was completely unacceptable. This is frankly ridiculous. A shortage of taxi drivers in Liverpool should not be leading to the effective removal of the local rail service 150 miles away in the North East.

Given the choice of empty stock working from Edge Hill that did run on Saturday (5S07), that would suggest they prioritised keeping the glorified empty stock working North of Newcastle running over providing a service to a station where they are the sole daytime service provider (Chester-le-Street), which whilst I can see that's operationally convenient it certainly doesn't benefit the customers. TPE could at the very least have put a special stop order on that service for Chester-le-Street, but they didn't.

I fail to see why 185s fresh off Ardwick couldn't have been used to start the affected northbound services from Manchester, with the two southbound services affected terminating in Manchester to get the 185s back to Ardwick. It would have contained the disruption to fewer passengers, and whilst I know that 185s can't keep to the 802 paths north of York, there is a sufficient enough gap behind the TPE services in both directions that a 185 losing 5 minutes between York and Newcastle is not the end of the world and won't hold up anything else.

 

[GordonT]

Surely 5S07 would be Edge Hill to Lime Street to form a 1S07 not Edge Hill to Scotland (ECS).

 

[8J]

Surely 5S07 would be Edge Hill to Lime Street to form a 1S07 not Edge Hill to Scotland (ECS).

5S07 works from Edge Hill sidings to Liverpool Lime Street and then forms 9S07 (07:24 Liverpool Lime Street - Edinburgh Waverly).

That unit then does work between Edinburgh Waverly and Newcastle Central before finishing at Craigentinny depot that evening.

 

[RHolmes]

I fail to see why 185s fresh off Ardwick couldn't have been used to start the affected northbound services from Manchester, with the two southbound services affected terminating in Manchester

Unable to source taxis from Liverpool to Edge Hill let alone Liverpool to Manchester.

To do so would require spare drivers from both Man Pic (who sign Ardwick but not beyond York) and either Liverpool (who sign Newcastle) or York or/and Newcastle.

Do bare in mind that many drivers are currently either traction training, working their own services or training new drivers, or spare at home which limits shift hours (reduced by an hour minimum to allow for travel into work) limiting the amount of spare staff available to crew said trains.

Rightly or wrongly it was deemed unachievable.

 

[DanNCL]

Unable to source taxis from Liverpool to Edge Hill let alone Liverpool to Manchester.

That would only have been an issue for the 05:54. The 07:54 could have been resourced by Liverpool crew starting in Manchester with said crew travelling passenger to Manchester on another service.

A taxi from Liverpool to Manchester could actually be easier to source. A longer journey like that running on the meter will be much more appealing to the taxi companies than a fixed fare short hop within Liverpool. I don't know which companies TPE use for their taxis therefore couldn't confirm if this was the case with the companies they use, but I know some Taxi firms actively prioritise longer journeys on the meter when they're short of drivers, with the fixed fare short hops on company accounts getting lowest priority, even below supermarket customers wanting to travel a few hundred meters down the street with their shopping.

To do so would require spare drivers from both Man Pic (who sign Ardwick but not beyond York) and either Liverpool (who sign Newcastle) or York or/and Newcastle.

Most (if not all?) crews that sign Newcastle also sign 185s so that shouldn't be an issue.

Rightly or wrongly it was deemed unachievable.

Either deemd unachievable, or not considered. Given the lack of any effort to provide even a taxi for those at Chester-le-Street left stranded by the cancellations, I'm inclined to think TPE didn't consider it.

 

[XAM2175]

Given the lack of any effort to provide even a taxi for those at Chester-le-Street left stranded by the cancellations ...

Were you refused a taxi, or did you not enquire?

 

[DanNCL]

Were you refused a taxi, or did you not enquire?

I did enquire and was told to wait for the next train two hours later. Safe to say I didn’t do that and instead took the bus.