TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[CAF397]

Not seen this mentioned. Final Mk 5A set - and the final new train in the fleet - has been accepted by Transpennine Express

TransPennine Express accepts its 44th and final Nova train | RailBusinessDaily

TransPennine Express has accepted its 44th and final Nova train at Manchester International Depot. The new 44-train fleet was built by CAF and

news.railbusinessdaily.com

Still committed to Saltburn for the Mk 5As.

"Built by CAF and hauled by a DRS Class 68, the final Nova will run between Liverpool, Manchester and Scarborough expanding to Teesside later in the year."

 

[HSP 2]

I for one would just be happy to see them running back to Liverpool as a start. Not just York to Scarborough.

 

[xotGD]

Not seen this mentioned. Final Mk 5A set - and the final new train in the fleet - has been accepted by Transpennine Express

TransPennine Express accepts its 44th and final Nova train | RailBusinessDaily

TransPennine Express has accepted its 44th and final Nova train at Manchester International Depot. The new 44-train fleet was built by CAF and

news.railbusinessdaily.com

Still committed to Saltburn for the Mk 5As.

"Built by CAF and hauled by a DRS Class 68, the final Nova will run between Liverpool, Manchester and Scarborough expanding to Teesside later in the year."

"Later in the year" sounds promising. Hopefully not just a token service on New Year's Eve!

 

[NorthWestRover]

Promising and somewhat surprising.

 

[RHolmes]

I for one would just be happy to see them running back to Liverpool as a start. Not just York to Scarborough.

They do almost daily 0554 from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool and 0654 from Liverpool to Scarborough

"Later in the year" sounds promising. Hopefully not just a token service on New Year's Eve!

December 2021 is the next timetable change and the earliest point that the 15 class 185s are due to leave the fleet (after their previous extension)

 

[marsker]

There was a Nova 3 test run to Saltburn last Thursday.

View attachment 98313Here it is at Saltburn. TP03 with 68 033

 

[HSP 2]

They do almost daily 0554 from Manchester Victoria to Liverpool and 0654 from Liverpool to Scarborough

I would not call that a service, it's a positioning move and to keep up the traction knowledge for the Manchester and Liverpool crews.

IIRC, the last 68 hauled train from Scarborough to Manchester Vic. then runs onto Longsite for servicing and another set comes out in the morning to form the Liverpool train.

 

[47827]

I would not call that a service, it's a positioning move and to keep up the traction knowledge for the Manchester and Liverpool crews.

IIRC, the last 68 hauled train from Scarborough to Manchester Vic. then runs onto Longsite for servicing and another set comes out in the morning to form the Liverpool train.

The depot in Liverpool was never trained on 68s/Mk5s. Due to the number of types of stock TPE ordered the only one most crew will continue to sign is 185s, which will still form some services and often cover on a few routes, with the depots then signing 1 or 2 other types of train each. Not so great for cross depot cover but at least it makes training and associated costs more manageable. The evening diagram back off Scarborough runs to Manchester Airport usually and of the 2 Manchester TPE crew bases it is the Airport based staff who work the 68s, one of whom I know. They also cover the Manchester - Liverpool - Scarborough working of a morning. I think its only a big pile of York crews who are still to be trained on 68s/mk5s, which was the big reason why no diagrams have begun to Redcar yet. The training had begun pre covid but had lapsed and is probably not all that far along now with December the earliest possible progress date where sets could work to Redcar daily.

 

[Watershed]

I would not call that a service, it's a positioning move and to keep up the traction knowledge for the Manchester and Liverpool crews.

IIRC, the last 68 hauled train from Scarborough to Manchester Vic. then runs onto Longsite for servicing and another set comes out in the morning to form the Liverpool train.

Liverpool don't sign the Nova 3s, it's an entirely Manchester worked job, but yes. It's also to rotate the sets as there is currently one Longsight (XML)-Scarborough (XSC), one XSC-XSC, and one XSC-XML diagram. The latter ends at Manchester Airport on 1P94 each day, then runs empty to XML.

Anyway, some interesting developments are afoot, which should hopefully see a fourth diagram out in summer.

 

[CW2]

Just a reminder that from 31st July to 15th August 2021 there are extensive engineering works affecting services in the Manchester Victoria area.
NRE link
As far as the 68-worked services are concerned in this period:
1E25 starts at Manchester Piccadilly at 0715, and runs via Guide Bridge to Stalybridge, forward as booked:
1E25 schedule
1P94 runs as booked to Stalybridge, then runs via Guide Bridge to Manchester Piccadilly and terminates there.
1P94 schedule

 

[Watershed]

Just a reminder that from 31st July to 15th August 2021 there are extensive engineering works affecting services in the Manchester Victoria area.
NRE link
As far as the 68-worked services are concerned in this period:
1E25 starts at Manchester Piccadilly at 0715, and runs via Guide Bridge to Stalybridge, forward as booked:
1E25 schedule
1P94 runs as booked to Stalybridge, then runs via Guide Bridge to Manchester Piccadilly and terminates there.
1P94 schedule

On the three Saturdays, 1E25 will start at Liverpool.

 

[CW2]

On the three Saturdays, 1E25 will start at Liverpool.

Well spotted! Runs via Piccadilly P13, then across the station throat, and via Guide Bridge to Stalybridge. I assume this can only take place on a Saturday, with no available path via Piccadilly Monday to Friday.

 

[Watershed]

Well spotted! Runs via Piccadilly P13, then across the station throat, and via Guide Bridge to Stalybridge. I assume this can only take place on a Saturday, with no available path via Piccadilly Monday to Friday.

There's a bit more to it than that, but I've certainly got those dates in my diary.

 

[CW2]

There's a bit more to it than that, but I've certainly got those dates in my diary.

Worth noting too that the inward working to Liverpool, 1F48 from Manchester Victoria, runs about 30 minutes earlier at 05:25 instead of 05:54. (Only for the truly desperate methinks).

 

[Watershed]

Worth noting too that the inward working to Liverpool, 1F48 from Manchester Victoria, runs about 30 minutes earlier at 05:25 instead of 05:54. (Only for the truly desperate methinks).

Goodness me, didn't think RTT would pick that change up so quickly, it was only processed this morning!

 

[childwallblues]

The depot in Liverpool was never trained on 68s/Mk5s. Due to the number of types of stock TPE ordered the only one most crew will continue to sign is 185s, which will still form some services and often cover on a few routes, with the depots then signing 1 or 2 other types of train each. Not so great for cross depot cover but at least it makes training and associated costs more manageable. The evening diagram back off Scarborough runs to Manchester Airport usually and of the 2 Manchester TPE crew bases it is the Airport based staff who work the 68s, one of whom I know. They also cover the Manchester - Liverpool - Scarborough working of a morning. I think its only a big pile of York crews who are still to be trained on 68s/mk5s, which was the big reason why no diagrams have begun to Redcar yet. The training had begun pre covid but had lapsed and is probably not all that far along now with December the earliest possible progress date where sets could work to Redcar daily.

So I presume Liverpool crews sign Class 802s? Do they sign they sgn Class 397s as well?

 

[JonathanH]

So I presume Liverpool crews sign Class 802s? Do they sign they sgn Class 397s as well?

Liverpool do 185s and 802s. 397s into Liverpool is Preston work - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...route-and-traction-cards.213958/#post-4990884

 

[HSP 2]

I did hear a rumour that during the Vic. blockade that the 68s to from Liverpool were going to use the CLC route (why I don't know), I've not seen anything about it on RTT. Can anyone add anything to it.

Or is it just froth!

 

[SuperNova]

I did hear a rumour that during the Vic. blockade that the 68s to from Liverpool were going to use the CLC route (why I don't know), I've not seen anything about it on RTT. Can anyone add anything to it.

Or is it just froth!

Nonsense.

Edit: There is a 0624 services from Liverpool to Scarborough on a Saturday, but it goes on the Chat Moss and crosses the Piccadilly throat

 

[Watershed]

I did hear a rumour that during the Vic. blockade that the 68s to from Liverpool were going to use the CLC route (why I don't know), I've not seen anything about it on RTT. Can anyone add anything to it.

Or is it just froth!

There aren't any drivers that sign both 68s and the CLC. So I'm going to rule it out on that basis alone!

But there will be one 68 working in and out of Liverpool during the blockade, on the 3 Saturdays. Going via the Chat Moss.

 

[47827]

There aren't any drivers that sign both 68s and the CLC. So I'm going to rule it out on that basis alone!

But there will be one 68 working in and out of Liverpool during the blockade, on the 3 Saturdays. Going via the Chat Moss.

A friend who works these sets did have an ECS via the CLC a while back in the early days but I'm guessing the crew hadn't lost knowledge of it by that point. One of his class one departures nearly went that way too in the early months but it got delayed and sent via booked route instead. It beggars belief that it's not been kept on the route refresh list by booking a token service or ECS that way since if anywhere between Edge Hill and Manchester lands up shut, the service can't run to Liverpool and sets that are already there potentially get trapped. Understand the issue isn't as urgent without the hourly Liverpool to Scarborough services, but that isn't likely to last beyond next year.

 

[Watershed]

A friend who works these sets did have an ECS via the CLC a while back in the early days but I'm guessing the crew hadn't lost knowledge of it by that point.

Yes, unfortunately a lot of route knowledge has been lost over recent times.

One of his class one departures nearly went that way too in the early months but it got delayed and sent via booked route instead. It beggars belief that it's not been kept on the route refresh list by booking a token service or ECS that way since if anywhere between Edge Hill and Manchester lands up shut, the service can't run to Liverpool and sets that are already there potentially get trapped.

If you look at the May 2022 timetable consultation, there is one service each way per day proposed to run via the CLC. There is no risk of sets getting trapped at the moment, as they do not stable at Edge Hill (and in any case, if there were planned engineering works with sets at Edge Hill, you would either do without them, or ensure they ended up somewhere else before the block!).

Understand the issue isn't as urgent without the hourly Liverpool to Scarborough services, but that isn't likely to last beyond next year.

Even when hourly Liverpool-Scarborough is reinstated, having CLC route knowledge isn't massively valuable to that service. The only way of diverting via the CLC is to reverse at Oxford Road or cross the Piccadilly throat. Neither are very easy to path, or reliable in operation, so usually this option is limited to being the first and last train each way when engineering work blocks the Chat Moss.

 

[47827]

Yes, unfortunately a lot of route knowledge has been lost over recent times.


If you look at the May 2022 timetable consultation, there is one service each way per day proposed to run via the CLC. There is no risk of sets getting trapped at the moment, as they do not stable at Edge Hill (and in any case, if there were planned engineering works with sets at Edge Hill, you would either do without them, or ensure they ended up somewhere else before the block!).


Even when hourly Liverpool-Scarborough is reinstated, having CLC route knowledge isn't massively valuable to that service. The only way of diverting via the CLC is to reverse at Oxford Road or cross the Piccadilly throat. Neither are very easy to path, or reliable in operation, so usually this option is limited to being the first and last train each way when engineering work blocks the Chat Moss.

Yes, Manchester between Deansgate area and Piccadilly being a complete menace for decades. The timetables just push capacity to limits. Even by the late 90s on Sundays Virgin couldn't manage to path every diverted Glasgow or Liverpool train so a few started the interesting crawl via Denton and Manchester Victoria.

Whilst I understand what you say and don't dispute it, it's not a good reflection on the railway if it can't ddivert over a natural passenger alternative in an emergency (I'm not just on about planned closures). There's been incidents in recent years where no diversionary route really has done the public a disservice. For example having weeks of Glasgow to Euston services all starting at starting at Carlisle because running a few a day via Kilmarnock presents too many challenges these days.

 

[Watershed]

Whilst I understand what you say and don't dispute it, it's not a good reflection on the railway if it can't ddivert over a natural passenger alternative in an emergency (I'm not just on about planned closures). There's been incidents in recent years where no diversionary route really has done the public a disservice. For example having weeks of Glasgow to Euston services all starting at starting at Carlisle because running a few a day via Kilmarnock presents too many challenges these days.

Taking the CLC as an example, with the normal daytime timetable in operation (2tph fast plus 2tph stopping), there is simply no capacity for additional trains. The stopper departs immediately behind the fast at Manchester/Liverpool, and the fast then catches up with the stopper in front by the time it gets to the other end.

So you would need to cancel existing services to fit any diverted services there.

Carslisle-Glasgow via Kilmarnock is a bit different - there, capacity isn't such an issue (although with diverted freight services it can be tight at times). The bigger problem is that, as it's not electrified, and there aren't enough Voyagers, you would need to attach/detach a loco at Carlisle and then run around at Glasgow. All in all, a complicated, slow and expensive affair.

When the alternative is running a non-stop coach that's quicker than going via Kilmarnock, I do think you have to be pragmatic.

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely cases where available options aren't taken up - but more often than not, there are good reasons for these kinds of things.

 

[47827]

Taking the CLC as an example, with the normal daytime timetable in operation (2tph fast plus 2tph stopping), there is simply no capacity for additional trains. The stopper departs immediately behind the fast at Manchester/Liverpool, and the fast then catches up with the stopper in front by the time it gets to the other end.

So you would need to cancel existing services to fit any diverted services there.

Carslisle-Glasgow via Kilmarnock is a bit different - there, capacity isn't such an issue (although with diverted freight services it can be tight at times). The bigger problem is that, as it's not electrified, and there aren't enough Voyagers, you would need to attach/detach a loco at Carlisle and then run around at Glasgow. All in all, a complicated, slow and expensive affair.

When the alternative is running a non-stop coach that's quicker than going via Kilmarnock, I do think you have to be pragmatic.

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely cases where available options aren't taken up - but more often than not, there are good reasons for these kinds of things.

The stoppers have always been like that with the fasts catching them up almost. In an emergency in past decades there was a lot more fudging through. Indeed, delay was often put against stoppers on the CLC to get a fast to Liverpool and back, or get a fast ahead from Allerton by holding the stopper at the signal on the slows outside before it was allowed to come over. Realise it doesn't fit with 2021 thinking to allow such things to happen, even in emergencies and that said services do no good to divert due to the bottleneck at Manchester either so the auto default plan is no through service between 0600 and late evening if the booked route falls apart. Have tried to get GSW paths in the past and it's somewhat better this last decade or so than it used to be.

Anyway, we are straying past the subject of diagrams for Mk5s now so enough said and shame we may never see any diagrammed via the CLC in emergencies or pre planned.

 

[CW2]

Basically it all comes down to money. How much spare infrastructure do you build "just in case"? How many spare sets do you buy that might get used once or twice a year? How amny traincrew hours do you use up maintaining route knowledge over diversionary routes? If there is a big budget, you can do a lot of the above. If not, the status quo is as good as it gets.

 

[CAF397]

Additional services M-S have appeared in RTT from August 16th, presumably to uplift capacity and provide daytime stock swaps between Mk5 sets.

Realtime Trains - 1E41 1529 Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - 1F72 1534 Scarborough to Manchester Victoria

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[JonathanH]

Additional services M-S have appeared in RTT from August 16th, presumably to uplift capacity and provide daytime stock swaps between Mk5 sets.

Realtime Trains - 1E41 1529 Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - 1F72 1534 Scarborough to Manchester Victoria

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

These may well be the changes needed to eliminate overnight servicing at Scarborough Tmd. Presumably it shuts with effect from 15 August as from 16 August there are no longer any timetabled movements onto or off the depot and the stock appears to be stabled in the platforms at Scarborough.

I'm not sure they exactly uplift capacity at times of the day when that would be most helpful - I assume they are just most practical from an operational point of view.

The Manchester Victoria working goes through the Castlefield corridor empty right in the rush hour which seems to be quite unnecessary given the operational issues there. The last thing needed is an extra empty train.

 

[Watershed]

These may well be the changes needed to eliminate overnight servicing at Scarborough Tmd. Presumably it shuts with effect from 15 August as from 16 August there are no longer any timetabled movements onto or off the depot and the stock appears to be stabled in the platforms at Scarborough.

Yes, effectively the 16:25 arrival into York is extended to Victoria whilst the 17:00 departure is started back from Piccadilly. The sets are booked to cross between Micklefield and Church Fenton.

From the Saturday of that week, there are also additional weekend 'seaside express' services to/from Scarborough (0900 off Victoria, then the 1121 back to York, followed by the 1626 to Scarborough and finally the 1811 back to Victoria). These are booked double 185s, but the latter service gives a rare opportunity to travel along the Malton avoiding line for anyone who is thus minded.

 

[CW2]

Speaking of overnight servicing, I note from the schedules linked above (post #957) that these trains will be conveying sleeping accommodation. (Perhaps a sticky digit in the schedule input?).