Traincrew exchanging between trains mid-journey

[GordonT]

Always been a common feature on the West Highland Line and Far North Line for traincrews on stopping passenger trains to change places with the crew of a train heading in the opposite direction in order to get the respective crews back to their home turf. Any other lines where this is normal practice?

 

[Gloster]

Heart of Wales line.

 

[Basil Jet]

Cornish Sleeper, AFAIK

 

[Deafdoggie]

Cornish Sleeper, AFAIK

Not sure North & South sleepers meet anywhere

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Cornish Sleeper, AFAIK

No exchange of traincrew between up and down workings of the Cornish Sleeper.

 

[30907]

Used to happen on North Cornwall line according to various sources. Seen it in rural CZ too.

 

[Gloster]

It used to be fairly common all over the country, particularly on cross-country single lines, where trains would have to stop in a loop to cross anyway. Quite frequently a pick-up goods would start from each end and the crews would change wherever they met. Similar arrangements occurred with passenger trains, although not so frequently.

 

[greyman42]

Always been a common feature on the West Highland Line and Far North Line for traincrews on stopping passenger trains to change places with the crew of a train heading in the opposite direction in order to get the respective crews back to their home turf. Any other lines where this is normal practice?

Do you mean traincrew as in drivers or the entire traincrew including catering staff?

 

[Bikeman78]

TfW have done some very imaginative ad hoc swaps when things are going wrong. Ferryside springs to mind as one example.

 

[AndrewE]

It was a standard diagramming (Programming on the LMR in the '70s) abbreviation: Arr at somewhere such-and-such a time. CC with [Depot and Turn] on xx.yy from... Dep whenever WTT said. (for Drivers and secondmen. It was to get round the fact that drivers had to be relieved and couldn't just abandon their cabs, which obviously didn't work when 2 trains met with no third man there for the change-over.) Guards didn't need relief, so just got off and onto the other train!

It was on the Central Wales line in my world, I'm sure there were others, but I can't recall them. Maybe on the Cambrian.

 

[Watershed]

Always been a common feature on the West Highland Line and Far North Line for traincrews on stopping passenger trains to change places with the crew of a train heading in the opposite direction in order to get the respective crews back to their home turf. Any other lines where this is normal practice?

I believe the Heart of Wales Line is the only other line where it's a booked move for passenger workings. The HoWL is fairly unique in that neither crew depot (Shrewsbury/Carmarthen) signs the full route so on a through service, a swap of crew is unavoidable.

 

[GordonT]

Do you mean traincrew as in drivers or the entire traincrew including catering staff?

Wasn't envisaging that services where this happens would support more than driver and conductor.

 

[6Gman]

I believe the Heart of Wales Line is the only other line where it's a booked move for passenger workings. The HoWL is fairly unique in that neither crew depot (Shrewsbury/Carmarthen) signs the full route so on a through service, a swap of crew is unavoidable.

Does it no longer happen on the Cambrian Coast?

Pwllheli certainly used to have a very generous view of the manning agreement to allow it to happen.

 

[tomuk]

Does it no longer happen on the Cambrian Coast?

Pwllheli certainly used to have a very generous view of the manning agreement to allow it to happen.

Doesn't it also happen at Shrewsbury both on Cambrian services and those to Holyhead.

What about LNW services at Northampton or Birmingham?

 

[Doveymain158]

Cambrian at Shrewsbury. Driver coming off the Cambrian usually works next service on to the Cambrian

 

[AndrewE]

Cambrian at Shrewsbury. Driver coming off the Cambrian usually works next service on to the Cambrian

but that's not necessarily changing cabs, which happens when trains meet and neither is shut down, nor is either driver specifically relieved. As 6GMan says, the depot have to be compliant as I'm sure it breaks quite a lot of rules.

 

[Gloster]

I thought the definition of this thread was cases where two trains going in opposite directions call at a station at the same and the crew that brought one in take over the other train and immediately take it back to where they came from. Meanwhile the crew of the second train take over the first and immediately take it back to where they came from. Cases where one crew hand over a train to another crew (that may have just started, come off a PNB or just come in on another service) and then pick up another train, have their PNB or go home are too frequent to mention.

PNB may be the old term: Physical Needs Break.

 

[GordonT]

I thought the definition of this thread was cases where two trains going in opposite directions call at a station at the same and the crew that brought one in take over the other train and immediately take it back to where they came from. Meanwhile the crew of the second train take over the first and immediately take it back to where they came from. Cases where one crew hand over a train to another crew (that may have just started, come off a PNB or just come in on another service) and then pick up another train, have their PNB or go home are too frequent to mention.

PNB may be the old term: Physical Needs Break.

Yes I intended the thread to be specific to the scenario you describe in the first part of your post.

 

[tomuk]

I thought the definition of this thread was cases where two trains going in opposite directions call at a station at the same and the crew that brought one in take over the other train and immediately take it back to where they came from. Meanwhile the crew of the second train take over the first and immediately take it back to where they came from. Cases where one crew hand over a train to another crew (that may have just started, come off a PNB or just come in on another service) and then pick up another train, have their PNB or go home are too frequent to mention.

PNB may be the old term: Physical Needs Break.

Ok
Do the Aberystwyth to Birmingham services fit this definition? They change crews at Shrewsbury ad return to whence they came. In unfortunately too many cases these days it not just the crew but the stock too when 153s or 150s are subbing for the 158s on the Birmingham leg.

 

[craigybagel]

I believe the Heart of Wales Line is the only other line where it's a booked move for passenger workings. The HoWL is fairly unique in that neither crew depot (Shrewsbury/Carmarthen) signs the full route so on a through service, a swap of crew is unavoidable.

Also Crewe for guards only.

Wasn't envisaging that services where this happens would support more than driver and conductor.

FWIW pre COVID the HOWL had a booked trolley service on certain services on Saturdays. For a while it had them on weekdays too but I don't think it lasted long.

Does it no longer happen on the Cambrian Coast?

Pwllheli certainly used to have a very generous view of the manning agreement to allow it to happen.

I've just checked the diagrams on genius for today and there's no working to crossing point, all trips are worked by one crew between Machynlleth and Pwllheli.

Ok
Do the Aberystwyth to Birmingham services fit this definition? They change crews at Shrewsbury ad return to whence they came. In unfortunately too many cases these days it not just the crew but the stock too when 153s or 150s are subbing for the 158s on the Birmingham leg.

No. There are occasions where the crew that comes in from the Cambrian returns immediately on the train running the opposite direction, but the crew that brings a train in from Birmingham can't return there immediately - it would involve too many hours without a break.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Unofficial train crew "fiddles" - Willesden to Clapham used to come to mind.....(at Kensington Olympia) -

 

[GordonT]

Ok
Do the Aberystwyth to Birmingham services fit this definition? They change crews at Shrewsbury ad return to whence they came. In unfortunately too many cases these days it not just the crew but the stock too when 153s or 150s are subbing for the 158s on the Birmingham leg.

Seemingly doesn't fit as there needs to be a fairly immediate incidence of the respective crews changing places and heading back. On the West Highland Line if the train in one direction has been cancelled for whatever reason the crew of the train in the other direction will arrive at Crianlarich, decant their pax to a (hopefully waiting) bus to complete their journey and then return from whence they came (obviously) remaining in the same units.

 

[betraveler]

It cant be that common, because it would risk to cause a double cancellation if one service was delayed. Unless there is contingency for a crew to overnight after all.

 

[GordonT]

Do the crews on Carlisle-Barrow and Carlisle-Leeds services change units at respective mid-points?

 

[Watershed]

Do the crews on Carlisle-Barrow and Carlisle-Leeds services change units at respective mid-points?

No. Carlisle-Leeds services are a mixture of through working and crew change at Skipton. Carlisle-Barrow (and beyond) services are a mixture of through working and crew change at Workington.

But in either event, even for those services which have an intermediate crew change, there isn't a "swap" where two trains meet each other and the crew exchange between services, as happens on the WHL, FNL & HoWL.

 

[newtownmgr]

I could be wrong but i believe in the Far North line it’s only the first train each way that swaps crews en route. All others are through out & back workings as is the Kyle line. The Heart of wales line is the only other routine swapping of crews. Not sure where it takes place but i think like the Far North there might be an overlap to allow the change to take place at either/or to save delays if one is late. Obviously the far north is easier as both Wick & Inverness have through route knowledge.
Any other changes would be ad hoq due to disruption and arranged by the TOC’s control in conjuction with Network Rail.

As regards freight services i suspect it might take place quite frequently.

 

[craigybagel]

I could be wrong but i believe in the Far North line it’s only the first train each way that swaps crews en route. All others are through out & back workings as is the Kyle line. The Heart of wales line is the only other routine swapping of crews. Not sure where it takes place but i think like the Far North there might be an overlap to allow the change to take place at either/or to save delays if one is late. Obviously the far north is easier as both Wick & Inverness have through route knowledge.
Any other changes would be ad hoq due to disruption and arranged by the TOC’s control in conjuction with Network Rail.

As regards freight services i suspect it might take place quite frequently.

HOWL crew changes at Llandrindrod or Llanwrtyd depending on the service. Carmarthen crew sign as far north as Llandrindrod, Shrewsbury/Crewe as far south as Llanwrtyd.

 

[newtownmgr]

HOWL crew changes at Llandrindrod or Llanwrtyd depending on the service. Carmarthen crew sign as far north as Llandrindrod, Shrewsbury/Crewe as far south as Llanwrtyd.

Cheers. Assumed there would be some kind of overlap.

 

[Gloster]

HOWL crew changes at Llandrindrod or Llanwrtyd depending on the service. Carmarthen crew sign as far north as Llandrindrod, Shrewsbury/Crewe as far south as Llanwrtyd.

Common sense would say that they should retain route-knowledge to the next loops on: Carmarthen crews would know to Knighton and Crewe ones to Llandovery. If they were due to change at the end of their normal area (say, at Llandrindod), but the southbound train was badly late, then the Carmarthen crew could continue to Knighton and change there.

Back in the early 1980s I had a situation where Control rang me up and instructed me to stop two trains going in opposite directions outside the box in order that the two train crews could change over. This I duly did: one set was back in Exeter less than half an hour after leaving. Why this was needed at such short notice I never discovered: the train crews were not expecting it.

 

[craigybagel]

Common sense would say that they should retain route-knowledge to the next loops on: Carmarthen crews would know to Knighton and Crewe ones to Llandovery. If they were due to change at the end of their normal area (say, at Llandrindod), but the southbound train was badly late, then the Carmarthen crew could continue to Knighton and change there.

Back in the early 1980s I had a situation where Control rang me up and instructed me to stop two trains going in opposite directions outside the box in order that the two train crews could change over. This I duly did: one set was back in Exeter less than half an hour after leaving. Why this was needed at such short notice I never discovered: the train crews were not expecting it.

The problem is, the crews would need to pass over that extra section of line at least once every 6 months to remain competent. You'd need pretty frequent route refreshes to stay competent. Also, if traincrew worked all the way through to the next crossing point and back again there's a real risk they'd need a PNB before they completed the journey.

The current system works pretty well - especially as there's already flexibility with the option of swapping Llandrindrod and Llanwrtyd. Beyond that it's probably more hassle than it's worth.