Trainspotting on the London Underground

[Peter C]

Hello,
I've been trainspotting on the national network for several years now, but have never really done any sort of trainspotting on the Underground. I've got a trainspotting book for it, but I don't know quite how to go about it. Hopefully someone on here can help!
I know LU trains don't have a class system in the same way as the national network - so which numbers do you note down? And how do you find the numbers? Do you note down the numbers from every car in a consist, or just the driving cars?
I'm sorry if this seems stupid or if there's already another thread about the subject (I've looked but couldn't find anything under "trainspotting on london underground" or by searching "trainspotting" on this sub-forum).

Thanks in advance,

-Peter

 

[PeterC]

Hello,
I've been trainspotting on the national network for several years now, but have never really done any sort of trainspotting on the Underground. I've got a trainspotting book for it, but I don't know quite how to go about it. Hopefully someone on here can help!
I know LU trains don't have a class system in the same way as the national network - so which numbers do you note down? And how do you find the numbers? Do you note down the numbers from every car in a consist, or just the driving cars?
I'm sorry if this seems stupid or if there's already another thread about the subject (I've looked but couldn't find anything under "trainspotting on london underground" or by searching "trainspotting" on this sub-forum).

Thanks in advance,

-Peter

Some things don't change, if we had had the internet back then I would probably have posted the same question 55 years ago. My response, in my early teens, was simply to concentrate on the "big" trains. Back then collecting BR unit numbers wasn't particualrly accurate either. There were plenty of units units around that had been reformed with different numbers at each end.

 

[bramling]

Hello,
I've been trainspotting on the national network for several years now, but have never really done any sort of trainspotting on the Underground. I've got a trainspotting book for it, but I don't know quite how to go about it. Hopefully someone on here can help!
I know LU trains don't have a class system in the same way as the national network - so which numbers do you note down? And how do you find the numbers? Do you note down the numbers from every car in a consist, or just the driving cars?
I'm sorry if this seems stupid or if there's already another thread about the subject (I've looked but couldn't find anything under "trainspotting on london underground" or by searching "trainspotting" on this sub-forum).

Thanks in advance,

-Peter

The answer is whatever one wants to do!

Having said that I’d imagine the most logical ways to do it would be either ride in every car, or at least every unit. For the latter this would involve at least two cars per train, except the Central where four would be required.

That’s the only realistic way to do it as most lines change the formations round. Only the S stock and 09 tube stock are as delivered. 95 stock is mostly, but there are a couple which have been shuffled around for various reasons.

 

[Peter C]

The answer is whatever one wants to do!

Having said that I’d imagine the most logical ways to do it would be either ride in every car, or at least every unit. For the latter this would involve at least two cars per train, except the Central where four would be required.

That’s the only realistic way to do it as most lines change the formations round. Only the S stock and 09 tube stock are as delivered. 95 stock is mostly, but there are a couple which have been shuffled around for various reasons.

I'm not overly fussed about riding on every unit/car, just spotting them. So I assume the best way of spotting them would be to note down every car number, and that way if a set is shuffled around, I can know exactly which cars were in that train and not guess based on, say, a driving car's number.

Some things don't change, if we had had the internet back then I would probably have posted the same question 55 years ago. My response, in my early teens, was simply to concentrate on the "big" trains. Back then collecting BR unit numbers wasn't particualrly accurate either. There were plenty of units units around that had been reformed with different numbers at each end.

I've seen lots of photos from the 1980s/1990s showing DMUs with mixed carriage numbers and so I thought that it might be the same thing here. From what I've read and seen, the way people would go about spotting those units would be to note down every car number, written down in the formation they saw them - I know that before TOPS this was the way the abc books by Ian Allen Ltd. would publish DMU numbers (although not in specific formations, just the number lists for each type of car, divided by builder, and then by car type, e.g. Motor Carriage, Driving Carriage, etc.).

Thanks both!

-Peter

 

[PeterC]

I'm not overly fussed about riding on every unit/car, just spotting them. So I assume the best way of spotting them would be to note down every car number, and that way if a set is shuffled around, I can know exactly which cars were in that train and not guess based on, say, a driving car's number.


I've seen lots of photos from the 1980s/1990s showing DMUs with mixed carriage numbers and so I thought that it might be the same thing here. From what I've read and seen, the way people would go about spotting those units would be to note down every car number, written down in the formation they saw them - I know that before TOPS this was the way the abc books by Ian Allen Ltd. would publish DMU numbers (although not in specific formations, just the number lists for each type of car, divided by builder, and then by car type, e.g. Motor Carriage, Driving Carriage, etc.).

Thanks both!

-Peter

AS far as my memory goes the Ian Allen books in the 60s and 70s just gave unit numbers for BR. The London Underground book gave car number ranges but not individually listed to be ticked off.

DMUs could be a mess from a spotter's point of view, I still remember seeing one that consisted of three driving cars.

 

[telstarbox]

Peter C talking to PeterC


[Image shows two Spidermen pointing at each other]

 

[Peter C]

AS far as my memory goes the Ian Allen books in the 60s and 70s just gave unit numbers for BR. The London Underground book gave car number ranges but not individually listed to be ticked off.

DMUs could be a mess from a spotter's point of view, I still remember seeing one that consisted of three driving cars.

Ah OK - I've got a reprint of a 1960 book and it has series of lists of carriage numbers. I might be wrong though!
I've seen photos before of DMU sets using a Class 121 as a driving car - quite odd but apparently quite common.

Peter C talking to PeterC

View attachment 82491
[Image shows two Spidermen pointing at each other]

Haha
I came along second and didn't realise there was already someone with a pretty much identical name - but weirdly it hasn't led to much confusion!

-Peter

 

[rebmcr]

Peter C talking to PeterC

How long have I spent never noticing this?!

 

[greeny11]

Most units have the number on the front of the train - usually quite small, except for the Northern Line trains where the unit numbers are quite prominent at the bottom of the cab. On most lines - the train is in 2 halves, with the last 2/3 digits staying the same on each half. Each carriage will have its own number but the set of carriages on each half of the train will have the same last 2/3 digits e.g. on the Northern Line 51510, 52510, 53510 then 51511, 52511, 53511 could form one train made of two halves. Best way of getting each unit would be to get the numbers of the front and back carriages - this would not work on the Central line where the trains are made of 4 2-car units, so you would need to get the numbers of more carriages.

I found this link on Google which may be of use to you.

 

[Journeyman]

Most units have the number on the front of the train - usually quite small, except for the Northern Line trains where the unit numbers are quite prominent at the bottom of the cab. On most lines - the train is in 2 halves, with the last 2/3 digits staying the same on each half. Each carriage will have its own number but the set of carriages on each half of the train will have the same last 2/3 digits e.g. on the Northern Line 51510, 52510, 53510 then 51511, 52511, 53511 could form one train made of two halves. Best way of getting each unit would be to get the numbers of the front and back carriages - this would not work on the Central line where the trains are made of 4 2-car units, so you would need to get the numbers of more carriages.

I found this link on Google which may be of use to you.

Yup, this - LU trains run in fixed formations, but don't carry unit numbers in the same way that National Rail ones do. For most lines, getting the front and rear car numbers will identify every vehicle in the train, but on the Central Line trains are formed of 4x 2-car units, so you'll need every other vehicle number.

I'm not sure what spotting books are available for the Underground these days - Brian Hardy used to write one that was updated fairly regularly, but it hasn't appeared for a while.

In terms of "classes", London Underground identify vehicle types in two ways. Surface stock, built for the older cut-and-cover lines and the same size (roughly) as main line trains, are identified by letters, although there's now only one type - the S Stock. It has 2 variants - S8, 8-car trains on the Metropolitan line, with a mixed seating layout, and S7, 7 car trains will all-longitudinal seats on the Circle, District and H&C.

Tube stock is classified by anticipated year of delivery at the time of ordering - this can vary from actual entry into service date by several years. Types currently in service are:

1972 stock - Bakerloo line
1973 stock - Piccadilly line
1992 stock - Central and Waterloo and City lines, although the two fleets are separate and have quite a few technical differences
1995 stock - Northern line
1996 stock - Jubilee line
2009 stock - Victoria line

On top of this, look out for yellow battery locomotives on engineering trains, with 2 digit numbers prefixed L.

Hope that helps. Happy spotting.

 

[jbqfc]

the inter city railway society books have the underground numbers in them

John

 

[Dstock7080]

the inter city railway society books have the underground numbers in them

John

Also highly recommended:

London Underground Guide 2020 (Seventh Edition) (Book)

Fully updated for 2020, this must-have publication is again without a doubt the best in its field, detailing one of the world's most complex and fascinating metro systems.Looking at all eleven Underground lines - together with all the different types of trains which operate on the system - a...

www.videoscene.co.uk

 

[Peter C]

Yup, this - LU trains run in fixed formations, but don't carry unit numbers in the same way that National Rail ones do. For most lines, getting the front and rear car numbers will identify every vehicle in the train, but on the Central Line trains are formed of 4x 2-car units, so you'll need every other vehicle number.

I'm not sure what spotting books are available for the Underground these days - Brian Hardy used to write one that was updated fairly regularly, but it hasn't appeared for a while.

In terms of "classes", London Underground identify vehicle types in two ways. Surface stock, built for the older cut-and-cover lines and the same size (roughly) as main line trains, are identified by letters, although there's now only one type - the S Stock. It has 2 variants - S8, 8-car trains on the Metropolitan line, with a mixed seating layout, and S7, 7 car trains will all-longitudinal seats on the Circle, District and H&C.

Tube stock is classified by anticipated year of delivery at the time of ordering - this can vary from actual entry into service date by several years. Types currently in service are:

1972 stock - Bakerloo line
1973 stock - Piccadilly line
1992 stock - Central and Waterloo and City lines, although the two fleets are separate and have quite a few technical differences
1995 stock - Northern line
1996 stock - Jubilee line
2009 stock - Victoria line

On top of this, look out for yellow battery locomotives on engineering trains, with 2 digit numbers prefixed L.

Hope that helps. Happy spotting.

Most units have the number on the front of the train - usually quite small, except for the Northern Line trains where the unit numbers are quite prominent at the bottom of the cab. On most lines - the train is in 2 halves, with the last 2/3 digits staying the same on each half. Each carriage will have its own number but the set of carriages on each half of the train will have the same last 2/3 digits e.g. on the Northern Line 51510, 52510, 53510 then 51511, 52511, 53511 could form one train made of two halves. Best way of getting each unit would be to get the numbers of the front and back carriages - this would not work on the Central line where the trains are made of 4 2-car units, so you would need to get the numbers of more carriages.

I found this link on Google which may be of use to you.

Thanks very much for the detailed responses. I'm not going to be going to London in the near future I don't think, but it gives me time to learn how it works on the Underground and get my head around it all. I believe I've already downloaded the .pdf you link to @greeny11 but I'll have a look at that one and see if there's any differences.

-Peter

 

[rebmcr]

LU trains run in fixed formations, but don't carry unit numbers in the same way that National Rail ones do.

I've seen numbers inside carriages above the gangway doors on S Stock, and on '96 and '09 Tube Stock. Are they just repeats of the half-train number?

 

[bramling]

I've seen numbers inside carriages above the gangway doors on S Stock, and on '96 and '09 Tube Stock. Are they just repeats of the half-train number?

Sort of.

Each stock has its own numbering system, so there’s no set rule from one line to the next.

Using the Northern as an example, each train is formed of two similar units coupled together, the numbering will be (for example)
51579-52579-53579+53580-52580-51580

The “579” and “580” parts denote the individual units. Most trains on the Northern Line are in their as-delivered pairs, but there’s a couple of exceptions.

By contrast the Piccadilly stock doesn’t always keep the same number, so you can have
204-604-404+888-688-889

You can work out which unit you’re in from the numbers above the doors, but can’t tell what other units will be forming the train, except on the lines where they keep the trains together.

 

[ColinC]

I had the same dilemma when I started collecting tube numbers, and I opted for individual carriages despite the trains (apart from the Central Line) being either fixed units or two fixed half-units. I quickly got used to knowing what to expect once I saw the number of the leading carriage. Conversely, with mainline units, I need only to see the unit number for it to count.

The thing is, it's your hobby so there is no right or wrong way!

Platform 5 also produce a book, UK Metro & Light Rail Systems, of which about half is concerned with the London Underground.

 

[clagmonster]

I found this link on Google which may be of use to you.

Couple of questions of my own from the link:
1) Why do the Northern and Jub vehicles have TOPS classifications when they have no interaction with Network Rail?
2) What are the TOPS numbers for each unit for the fleets that have them? Something odd must occur with these - for the Northern Line 499/4s there are 212 units, which should overrun into the 499/5 range which is taken by the sub surface S stock.
3) On the units which run on NR metals (Bakerloo certainly do, not sure about the ownership of the District Wimbledon and Richmond branches), are the TOPS numbers displayed in the cab as is required with other stock registered to run on NR metals?

Thanks in advance for any help on this.

 

[Dstock7080]

Couple of questions of my own from the link:
3) On the units which run on NR metals (Bakerloo certainly do, not sure about the ownership of the District Wimbledon and Richmond branches), are the TOPS numbers displayed in the cab as is required with other stock registered to run on NR metals?

Thanks in advance for any help on this.

TOPS numbers are not displayed in LU train cabs.
(the Wimbledon branch is owned by LU as are East Putney, Southfields, Wimbledon Park stations. Network Rail signalling and power supplies operate and NR Rule Books apply)