Transfer of LNER HST 125s to East Midlands Railway (EMR)

[43055]

Anyone able to confirm which coaches have been removed from NL51, 57 & 58?

From the powers of Facebook (so might not be 100% correct) and for completeness I have included NL56:

NL51 41150 40748 42091 42150 42154 44094 (TF, TRFB, TSD, TS, TS, TGS)
NL56 41100 41099 40711 42239 42240 42198 42199 44063 (TF, TF, TRFB, TSD, TS, TS, TS, TGS)
NL57 41115 41165 40702 42159 42109 44057 (TF, TF, TRFB, TSD, TS, TGS)
NL58 41120 41095 40701 42146 42326 44075 (TF, TF, TRFB, TS, TS, TGS)

TGS - Trailer Guard Standard
TS - Trailer Standard
TSD - Trailer Standard Disabled
TRFB - Trailer Restaurant First Buffet
TF - Trailer First

 

[158722]

From the powers of Facebook (so might not be 100% correct) and for completeness I have included NL56:

NL51 41150 40748 42091 42150 42154 44094 (TF, TRFB, TSD, TS, TS, TGS)
NL56 41100 41099 40711 42239 42240 42198 42199 44063 (TF, TF, TRFB, TSD, TS, TS, TS, TGS)
NL57 41115 41165 40702 42159 42109 44057 (TF, TF, TRFB, TSD, TS, TGS)
NL58 41120 41095 40701 42146 42326 44075 (TF, TF, TRFB, TS, TS, TGS)

TGS - Trailer Guard Standard
TS - Trailer Standard
TSD - Trailer Standard Disabled
TRFB - Trailer Restaurant First Buffet
TF - Trailer First

Excellent reference source! Many thanks!

 

[_toommm_]

This is probably the best thread - was this some ex. EMR coaches going for scrap?

EDIT: It would help if I posted the link to the train I was referring to:

Realtime Trains - 5Z98 1125 Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D to Newport Docks (Simsgroup)

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[43096]

This is probably the best thread - was this some ex. EMR coaches going for scrap?

NL10 has gone to Newport today, yes.

 

[WesternLancer]

Is there a possibility of reduced HST use on the MML as of dec 12th and thus less need to bring more red sets into use, whilst disposing of the remaining EMT sets?
If so next few days after lock down may well be an opportunity to make the most of sets.

 

[DB]

Is there a possibility of reduced HST use on the MML as of dec 12th and thus less need to bring more red sets into use, whilst disposing of the remaining EMT sets?
If so next few days after lock down may well be an opportunity to make the most of sets.

yes, apparently there is a reduction, but some EMT sets will still be needed.

Doesn't appear that there will be any red sets beyond the existing four.

 

[WesternLancer]

yes, apparently there is a reduction, but some EMT sets will still be needed.

Doesn't appear that there will be any red sets beyond the existing four.

I see the pdf new timetable is on the EMR website, with the traction in the column headings. I suspect this is perhaps wrong then (the traction details)

Bottom of this page

Timetables | EMR

Find times for EMR trains, for wherever you need to travel on our network.

www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

 

[LowLevel]

I see the pdf new timetable is on the EMR website, with the traction in the column headings. I suspect this is perhaps wrong then (the traction details)

Bottom of this page

Timetables | EMR

Find times for EMR trains, for wherever you need to travel on our network.

www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

It has had errors in traction type in most editions going back to EMT. It is a reasonable guide but I wouldn't rely on it.

 

[WesternLancer]

It has had errors in traction type in most editions going back to EMT. It is a reasonable guide but I wouldn't rely on it.

Thanks - it's usually been OK of course when you turn up for an xx.45 from Nottm and it is indeed an HST! But warning heeded LowLevel !

 

[LowLevel]

Thanks - it's usually been OK of course when you turn up for an xx.45 from Nottm and it is indeed an HST! But warning heeded LowLevel !

Yeah the middle of the day trains were usually accurate but the peak time service was more hit and miss - for example the "Slow Boat" train in the mornings at about 0730 off Derby (1C92) was for many years in the 2010s shown in the timetable as HST but was actually booked for a 222/5. However it was always first to be cancelled in case of stock shortages and was formed of whatever was available so often turned up as a 222/7 or occasionally a HST set if the Etches Park spare was the only thing available.

 

[43055]

Yeah the middle of the day trains were usually accurate but the peak time service was more hit and miss - for example the "Slow Boat" train in the mornings at about 0730 off Derby (1C92) was for many years in the 2010s shown in the timetable as HST but was actually booked for a 222/5. However it was always first to be cancelled in case of stock shortages and was formed of whatever was available so often turned up as a 222/7 or occasionally a HST set if the Etches Park spare was the only thing available.

Not seen that one before but for many years the morning Kettering - Corby shuttle has been shown as a HST for a while. No different in the current and new timetable.

I see the pdf new timetable is on the EMR website, with the traction in the column headings. I suspect this is perhaps wrong then (the traction details)

Bottom of this page

Timetables | EMR

Find times for EMR trains, for wherever you need to travel on our network.

www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

This is what I can find on RTT. There could be more services but all of these start/end at Leeds so will be a HST. Certainly on Saturdays the platforms don't really align at St Pancras so I can't find what happens next or where they come from.

Weekdays:
AM1: ECS Leeds to Sheffield then 0600 Sheffield - London, ECS to Cricklewood
AM2: 0519 Leeds - London via Derby, ECS to Cricklewood
AM3: 0634 Leeds - London via Nottingham, ECS to Cricklewood

PM1: ECS from Cricklewood, 1834 London - Leeds via Nottingham
PM2: ECS from Cricklewood, 1434 London - Nottingham, 1645 Nottingham - London, 1904 London - Leeds via Nottingham
PM3: ECS from Cricklewood, 1534 London - Nottingham, 1745 Nottingham - London, 2001 London - Leeds via Derby

Saturdays:
AM1: 0634 Leeds - London via Nottingham, Next move ???
AM2: 0740 Leeds - London via Nottingham, Next move ???

PM1: previous move ???, 1834 London - Leeds via Nottingham
PM2: previous move ???, 2002 London - Leeds via Derby

Sundays:
1: 0950 Leeds - London via Nottingham, 1455 London - Leeds via Derby
2: 1050 Leeds - London via Derby, ECS Cricklewood, 2040 London - Leeds via Derby
3: 1434 Leeds - London via Derby, 1835 London - Leeds via Derby

 

[louis97]

Not seen that one before but for many years the morning Kettering - Corby shuttle has been shown as a HST for a while. No different in the current and new timetable.


This is what I can find on RTT. There could be more services but all of these start/end at Leeds so will be a HST. Certainly on Saturdays the platforms don't really align at St Pancras so I can't find what happens next or where they come from.

Weekdays:
AM1: ECS Leeds to Sheffield then 0600 Sheffield - London, ECS to Cricklewood
AM2: 0519 Leeds - London via Derby, ECS to Cricklewood
AM3: 0634 Leeds - London via Nottingham, ECS to Cricklewood

PM1: ECS from Cricklewood, 1834 London - Leeds via Nottingham
PM2: ECS from Cricklewood, 1434 London - Nottingham, 1645 Nottingham - London, 1904 London - Leeds via Nottingham
PM3: ECS from Cricklewood, 1534 London - Nottingham, 1745 Nottingham - London, 2001 London - Leeds via Derby

Saturdays:
AM1: 0634 Leeds - London via Nottingham, Next move ???
AM2: 0740 Leeds - London via Nottingham, Next move ???

PM1: previous move ???, 1834 London - Leeds via Nottingham
PM2: previous move ???, 2002 London - Leeds via Derby

Sundays:
1: 0950 Leeds - London via Nottingham, 1455 London - Leeds via Derby
2: 1050 Leeds - London via Derby, ECS Cricklewood, 2040 London - Leeds via Derby
3: 1434 Leeds - London via Derby, 1835 London - Leeds via Derby

Weekdays have the following additionally:

0711 Nottingham to London
0731 Derby to London

1650 London to Corby, 1837 Corby to London and 2031 London to Derby
1734 London to Nottingham

Saturday has the following additionally:

0745 Nottingham - London and 1034 London - Nottingham

The other diagrams stay in Cricklewood all day.

Sunday has the following additionally:

1649 Sheffield - London and 2000 London - Nottingham

These are the base weekend diagrams, of course they are subject to alteration due to engineering works.

 

[cactustwirly]

Saturday has the following additionally:

0745 Nottingham - London and 1034 London - Nottingham

The other diagrams stay in Cricklewood all day.

Sunday has the following additionally:

1649 Sheffield - London and 2000 London - Nottingham

These are the base weekend diagrams, of course they are subject to alteration due to engineering works.

What is operating the daytime Nottingham fasts then if it isn't HSTs??

 

[louis97]

What is operating the daytime Nottingham fasts then if it isn't HSTs??

A mix of 180s and 222s.

 

[43055]

What is operating the daytime Nottingham fasts then if it isn't HSTs??

Platform numbers at St Pancras shows them interworking with other services like the Nottingham slows.

 

[WesternLancer]

Not seen that one before but for many years the morning Kettering - Corby shuttle has been shown as a HST for a while. No different in the current and new timetable.


This is what I can find on RTT. There could be more services but all of these start/end at Leeds so will be a HST. Certainly on Saturdays the platforms don't really align at St Pancras so I can't find what happens next or where they come from.

Weekdays:
AM1: ECS Leeds to Sheffield then 0600 Sheffield - London, ECS to Cricklewood
AM2: 0519 Leeds - London via Derby, ECS to Cricklewood
AM3: 0634 Leeds - London via Nottingham, ECS to Cricklewood

PM1: ECS from Cricklewood, 1834 London - Leeds via Nottingham
PM2: ECS from Cricklewood, 1434 London - Nottingham, 1645 Nottingham - London, 1904 London - Leeds via Nottingham
PM3: ECS from Cricklewood, 1534 London - Nottingham, 1745 Nottingham - London, 2001 London - Leeds via Derby

Saturdays:
AM1: 0634 Leeds - London via Nottingham, Next move ???
AM2: 0740 Leeds - London via Nottingham, Next move ???

PM1: previous move ???, 1834 London - Leeds via Nottingham
PM2: previous move ???, 2002 London - Leeds via Derby

Sundays:
1: 0950 Leeds - London via Nottingham, 1455 London - Leeds via Derby
2: 1050 Leeds - London via Derby, ECS Cricklewood, 2040 London - Leeds via Derby
3: 1434 Leeds - London via Derby, 1835 London - Leeds via Derby

Thanks for this analysis (and same to other posters) - seems a big cut back in HST use really, with mainly in peaks. I suspect a lot more 5 car 222s will do the other services maybe then.
Will certainly need to check carefully.
The pdf timetables on EMR site (and thus presumably the hard copies) are rather erroneous it would seem - at least in this regard. Not the most critical problem but a shame not to be correct, or nearly correct as can be done.

 

[43055]

Thanks for this analysis (and same to other posters) - seems a big cut back in HST use really, with mainly in peaks. I suspect a lot more 5 car 222s will do the other services maybe then.
Will certainly need to check carefully.
The pdf timetables on EMR site (and thus presumably the hard copies) are rather erroneous it would seem - at least in this regard. Not the most critical problem but a shame not to be correct, or nearly correct as can be done.

Not a problem. This is only some of the diagrams and I think there is another diagram or 2 still to be found which would start/finish at Etches Park. If the plan is to use all 4 180s the I would suspect the number of double 180/222s may not change that much. The number of ECS moves between Sheffield/Nottingham and Derby Looks to be reduced which would save a unit or two.

 

[spotify95]

Not seen that one before but for many years the morning Kettering - Corby shuttle has been shown as a HST for a while. No different in the current and new timetable.


This is what I can find on RTT. There could be more services but all of these start/end at Leeds so will be a HST. Certainly on Saturdays the platforms don't really align at St Pancras so I can't find what happens next or where they come from.

Weekdays:
AM1: ECS Leeds to Sheffield then 0600 Sheffield - London, ECS to Cricklewood
AM2: 0519 Leeds - London via Derby, ECS to Cricklewood
AM3: 0634 Leeds - London via Nottingham, ECS to Cricklewood

PM1: ECS from Cricklewood, 1834 London - Leeds via Nottingham
PM2: ECS from Cricklewood, 1434 London - Nottingham, 1645 Nottingham - London, 1904 London - Leeds via Nottingham
PM3: ECS from Cricklewood, 1534 London - Nottingham, 1745 Nottingham - London, 2001 London - Leeds via Derby

Saturdays:
AM1: 0634 Leeds - London via Nottingham, Next move ???
AM2: 0740 Leeds - London via Nottingham, Next move ???

PM1: previous move ???, 1834 London - Leeds via Nottingham
PM2: previous move ???, 2002 London - Leeds via Derby

Sundays:
1: 0950 Leeds - London via Nottingham, 1455 London - Leeds via Derby
2: 1050 Leeds - London via Derby, ECS Cricklewood, 2040 London - Leeds via Derby
3: 1434 Leeds - London via Derby, 1835 London - Leeds via Derby

I routinely go past Kettering on the way to and from my work (travel from Wellingborough to Leicester). The Kettering to Corby shuttle has never been a HST, and an 8 coach HST would be a waste of capacity when the main line trains from Leicester & the North (down to St Pancras) could do with it more.

Are EMR still getting some 180s? The last I heard, EMR were going to use 180s (and the 222s freed up from Lon - Corby) to get rid of the HSTs - which is a shame. I always loved the HSTs. I would purposely get the 07:54 from Wellingborough as it was the only HST all day that stopped at Wellingborough, plus the HSTs have proper windows, not metal foil screened windows (a problem with the 22x trains) - that's the difference between getting 3G (and later 4G) across the entire journey, or constantly dropping in and out, having to rely on wi-fi that was either paid for, or in the case of EMR 222s, just doesn't work at all.

It's a crying shame that the HSTs are getting scrapped. I heard that one was recently sent to Sims Newport
Do they actually salvage any parts/components or is the whole lot just crushed up? As I reckon there would be some people out there that would want parts of the interior (the EMR ones actually looked decent the last time I was on one - better than the 222s actually).

 

[Wyrleybart]

I routinely go past Kettering on the way to and from my work (travel from Wellingborough to Leicester). The Kettering to Corby shuttle has never been a HST, and an 8 coach HST would be a waste of capacity when the main line trains from Leicester & the North (down to St Pancras) could do with it more.

Are EMR still getting some 180s? The last I heard, EMR were going to use 180s (and the 222s freed up from Lon - Corby) to get rid of the HSTs - which is a shame. I always loved the HSTs. I would purposely get the 07:54 from Wellingborough as it was the only HST all day that stopped at Wellingborough, plus the HSTs have proper windows, not metal foil screened windows (a problem with the 22x trains) - that's the difference between getting 3G (and later 4G) across the entire journey, or constantly dropping in and out, having to rely on wi-fi that was either paid for, or in the case of EMR 222s, just doesn't work at all.

It's a crying shame that the HSTs are getting scrapped. I heard that one was recently sent to Sims Newport
Do they actually salvage any parts/components or is the whole lot just crushed up? As I reckon there would be some people out there that would want parts of the interior (the EMR ones actually looked decent the last time I was on one - better than the 222s actually).

Yes. The four ex Hull Trains 180s theoretically replace the ex GCR short HSTs and 222s, which cascade 222s to replace other HSTs. In the interim you will have a few HSTs doing the commuter shoulders, with 222s and 180s covering the timetable. Eventually the 180s, 222s and HSTs all give way to the 36 x 5 car class 810s but the former units will be "enforcing" the standard 5 car formations.

 

[WesternLancer]

I routinely go past Kettering on the way to and from my work (travel from Wellingborough to Leicester). The Kettering to Corby shuttle has never been a HST, and an 8 coach HST would be a waste of capacity when the main line trains from Leicester & the North (down to St Pancras) could do with it more.

Are EMR still getting some 180s? The last I heard, EMR were going to use 180s (and the 222s freed up from Lon - Corby) to get rid of the HSTs - which is a shame. I always loved the HSTs. I would purposely get the 07:54 from Wellingborough as it was the only HST all day that stopped at Wellingborough, plus the HSTs have proper windows, not metal foil screened windows (a problem with the 22x trains) - that's the difference between getting 3G (and later 4G) across the entire journey, or constantly dropping in and out, having to rely on wi-fi that was either paid for, or in the case of EMR 222s, just doesn't work at all.

It's a crying shame that the HSTs are getting scrapped. I heard that one was recently sent to Sims Newport
Do they actually salvage any parts/components or is the whole lot just crushed up? As I reckon there would be some people out there that would want parts of the interior (the EMR ones actually looked decent the last time I was on one - better than the 222s actually).

Ref 1st point about HSTs to Corby, I thought there were about 2 peak trains per day that were made up of Angel Trains HSTs which are the shorter (6 car?) formations that served Corby on peaks to / from St P - to add capacity at rush hours. But maybe those HSTs had reliability probs in recent times and have not in fact been used on those services always, + covid making it not so necessary.

As you say, the interior of the ex EMT HSTs are indeed in much better condition than the 222s, which MML passengers will have to put up with as tatty until 810s come along.

In theory you will see 180s on services from Dec 13th - under test now.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The new diagram shown above starting with the 16.50 St. Pancras to Corby was worked by an Angel short set before lockdown. I sometimes used the Wellingborough - Corby and return journeys for a pleasant Summer evening leisure amble, and it certainly seems surprising that it justifies 8 cars, even at pre-Covid levels. I know it's a peak hour only turn, but would it not be impossible to exchange it for part of a 5 car 222 diagram?
Off topic, I know, but whenever I was expecting an Angel set it did indeed turn up. Curiously, and the complete reverse of normal practice, was that there were around 3 coach sets and 4 PCs, i.e. more sets than PCs. Perhaps sadly, I note the formation of trains I travel on, and it was the case that the coaches included in a particular set were slightly different every time I travelled. Perhaps it was because of their poor condition; for instance, the set on the afternoon Sheffield - St Pancras one very hot day in the Summer of 2019 only had one coach with functioning a/c, and lavatories out of use also seemed common.
The seats in the Angel were re-upholstered (apart from the ex GW TRFB) on receipt by EMT and were certainly better than the 222s (a low bar, I know!)

 

[LowLevel]

The new diagram shown above starting with the 16.50 St. Pancras to Corby was worked by an Angel short set before lockdown. I sometimes used the Wellingborough - Corby and return journeys for a pleasant Summer evening leisure amble, and it certainly seems surprising that it justifies 8 cars, even at pre-Covid levels. I know it's a peak hour only turn, but would it not be impossible to exchange it for part of a 5 car 222 diagram?
Off topic, I know, but whenever I was expecting an Angel set it did indeed turn up. Curiously, and the complete reverse of normal practice, was that there were around 3 coach sets and 4 PCs, i.e. more sets than PCs. Perhaps sadly, I note the formation of trains I travel on, and it was the case that the coaches included in a particular set were slightly different every time I travelled. Perhaps it was because of their poor condition; for instance, the set on the afternoon Sheffield - St Pancras one very hot day in the Summer of 2019 only had one coach with functioning a/c, and lavatories out of use also seemed common.
The seats in the Angel were re-upholstered (apart from the ex GW TRFB) on receipt by EMT and were certainly better than the 222s (a low bar, I know!)

The Angel sets were a short term fix funded by the DfT if I remember rightly after EMT stamped their feet about the impact of the Thameslink timetable.

There were theoretically 3 sets but only 2 were ever actually formed up with the rest being used as spare vehicles.

They had the minimum of work done to make them functional and presentable and things like the air conditioning and PA systems have been problematic throughout.

They are of course mostly ex Virgin West Coast loco hauled mk3as except the buffet cars which were overhauled in a very protracted manner by Grand Central on a budget.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The Angel sets were a short term fix funded by the DfT if I remember rightly after EMT stamped their feet about the impact of the Thameslink timetable.

There were theoretically 3 sets but only 2 were ever actually formed up with the rest being used as spare vehicles.

They had the minimum of work done to make them functional and presentable and things like the air conditioning and PA systems have been problematic throughout.

They are of course mostly ex Virgin West Coast loco hauled mk3as except the buffet cars which were overhauled in a very protracted manner by Grand Central on a budget.

Thank you for that info'; but, as far as I know, the GC buffet cars, although they arrived at Etches Park, were replaced by ex GW ones from store when with EM.
The ex GW cars retained the brown leather seats, the embossed 'GWR' logo being replaced (somehow!) but, interestingly, the TFOs also received replacement brown leather seat upholstery very similar to the GWR ones. I could bore everyone with photos...

 

[LowLevel]

Thank you for that info'; but, as far as I know, the GC buffet cars, although they arrived at Etches Park, were replaced by ex GW ones from store when with EM.
The ex GW cars retained the brown leather seats, the embossed 'GWR' logo being replaced (somehow!) but, interestingly, the TFOs also received replacement brown leather seat upholstery very similar to the GWR ones. I could bore everyone with photos...

That's correct - the GC buffet cars were deemed unsuitable and some recently withdrawn ex GW TRFBs were used instead.

The TFs were done out in leather to match the TRFBs which I think are amongst the nicest railway vehicles on the network.

The rest of the coaches including the declassified TFs were done out in the standard EMT red.

 

[DB]

That's correct - the GC buffet cars were deemed unsuitable and some recently withdrawn ex GW TRFBs were used instead.

The TFs were done out in leather to match the TRFBs which I think are amongst the nicest railway vehicles on the network.

The rest of the coaches including the declassified TFs were done out in the standard EMT red.

The GC buffets (TRSBs) were stored at Ely for a while, but were scrapped at Newport earlier in the year.

So far as I could see from looking, the current buffets appeared to have had new seat covers fitted when they had their minor overhaul for EMT.

 

[LowLevel]

The GC buffets (TRSBs) were stored at Ely for a while, but were scrapped at Newport earlier in the year.

So far as I could see from looking, the current buffets appeared to have had new seat covers fitted when they had their minor overhaul for EMT.

The GC buffets cluttered up Etches Park for a while before removal. I seem to recall that not only was the equipment not up to the EMT hot food offer as well as the vehicles having standard class seating, they had also suffered pretty badly with corrosion, a common issue with buffet cars. Part of the reason it was such a shame the MML buffets are being scrapped is that MML spent a huge amount on them rectifying bodywork issues.

 

[WesternLancer]

The GC buffets cluttered up Etches Park for a while before removal. I seem to recall that not only was the equipment not up to the EMT hot food offer as well as the vehicles having standard class seating, they had also suffered pretty badly with corrosion, a common issue with buffet cars. Part of the reason it was such a shame the MML buffets are being scrapped is that MML spent a huge amount on them rectifying bodywork issues.

Good points. I would have thought good buffet cars / catering vehicles would have a reasonable second hand value in terms of the best ones being of interest to charter operators or even preservationists? They always use a higher share of catering vehicles per train than would be req'd in normal service after all. In fact I'd wondered if the 'Blue Pullman' HST - which I think is all 1st class - might have been equipped with 2 catering vehicles but that seems not to be so.

Were the ex GC HST buffet cars also ex loco hauled coaching stock from the WCML?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Were the ex GC HST buffet cars also ex loco hauled coaching stock from the WCML?

They were TRSBs from old XC sets.

 

[DB]

Good points. I would have thought good buffet cars / catering vehicles would have a reasonable second hand value in terms of the best ones being of interest to charter operators or even preservationists? They always use a higher share of catering vehicles per train than would be req'd in normal service after all. In fact I'd wondered if the 'Blue Pullman' HST - which I think is all 1st class - might have been equipped with 2 catering vehicles but that seems not to be so.

Were the ex GC HST buffet cars also ex loco hauled coaching stock from the WCML?

The blue pullman HST does have two catering vehicles - one of which has been converted to use the whole vehicle as a kitchen as I understand it.

HST catering vehicles are not normal loco-hauled stock, so of limited interest to preservationists. Decades ago 12 redundant HST catering vehicles were converted to loco-hauled stock, which requires a number of changes. There are also several in the Royal train fleet. If any group was determined to do so now it would be possible with the right skills, but not sure that there's the demand.

The loco hauled conversions for GC/XC/FGW back in the 2000s were all from open coaches - there were no buffets converted.

 

[WesternLancer]

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